China High Speed Bullet Train Struck by lightening and then rear ended by another...

[Darwin333]

Specific systems vary, but they all ultimately depend on the train operator when automatic systems fail. None, to my knowledge, actually cut power to the vehicle but rather signal the vehicle to stop in the absence of the proper track signal. Automatic train stop hardware is notoriously buggy & unreliable, meaning that many properties have to turn it off to run trains at all. Just the way it is. If the signal system were also knocked out by the lightning strike, then the dark signal for the trailing vehicle is always interpreted to be the same as a red signal. The cause of the accident is very likely operator error. The only way this could be a system design failure is if the Chinese weren't using a double red block system- very, very unlikely wrt a bullet train.

I work on this stuff all the time- it's my job.

Would you mind going into further detail on "dark signals" and "red/double red signals"? Sounds interesting, I would enjoy hearing a bit more about how it works from someone who actually works on it.

 

[nyker96]

I was surprised that China had bullet trains (no idea why). I'm not surprised they had an accident. I am, however, surprised that so few people died.

I belive China has bullet train for like 10 years but of course, here in US, we think everyone else is too backward.

 

[Jhhnn]

Would you mind going into further detail on "dark signals" and "red/double red signals"? Sounds interesting, I would enjoy hearing a bit more about how it works from someone who actually works on it.

Think of a length of many miles of track as a series of segments, blocks, each electrically isolated from the next. the 2 rails are also isolated from each other. At the entry to each block, there's a signal & a signal house. An electrical signal is introduced into the rails and the signal house detects if the two rails are electrically joined, like by the axles & wheels of a train. If they are, the signal for that block & the block prior is turned red, the block prior to that yellow, and the one prior to that green. That's in a single red system. a double red system creates two red signal blocks behind the train, rather than just one. Each block is sufficiently long for a train to stop between the entry signal and the signal for the next block. In a single red system, if an operator runs a red signal, he could run into his leader under conditions of poor visibility & traction if the leader were stopped just beyond the upcoming signal. In a double red system, he'd have to run 2 red signals.

All of this information is tied together at a control center, where a systems controller person supervises train movement. Operators are taught that a dark signal, no signal, is the same as a red signal & they must stop, proceed no further w/o authorization from the control center by radio. Running a red signal is grounds for termination in most systems. More exotic systems are often used, along with GPS, whereby more signals are used in the system that can limit speed, set switches ahead of the vehicle, and stop the train. Signals can be displayed on the train operator's console, as well as on the signal trees adjacent to the track. It gets more complicated with bidirectional track, too, and the actual display can vary from one system to the next.

Ultimately and finally, however, safety comes down to the individual train operator. It seems likely that the operator in the following train realized something was wrong before the collision occurred & managed to slow considerably before impact... and that he or she or the controller person had made a mistake allowing it to happen at all.

I should clarify that I work on the train side part of the system here at Denver light rail, not the track side hardware...

Google "Railroad block signaling" & similar for more info...

 

[Infohawk]

I belive China has bullet train for like 10 years but of course, here in US, we think everyone else is too backward.

It's not about everyone else, it's about China. And everytime it seems like China HAS some new tech it's actually a crappy prototype. People are aware that places like Japan or Germany have some good tech.

 

[Herr Kutz]

Signal system should have detected the train stuck on that block or equipment failure and cut power to the line automatically.

Reason #105 that the Chinese should not be our partners for any HSR in this country.

Well, we're in luck if this is true.

President Barack Obama has announced his intention to make high-speed rail a priority in the US.

Alastair Leithead reports on the project, which will be designed, built and part-funded by the Chinese.

 

[Jhhnn]

It's not about everyone else, it's about China. And everytime it seems like China HAS some new tech it's actually a crappy prototype. People are aware that places like Japan or Germany have some good tech.

In badmouthing China, you merely reveal your own insecurity. Their engineering achievements are myriad & growing, from the 3 gorges dam to the Hong Kong airport bridge to their high speed rail system.

Their enormous population coupled with an education system that rewards excellence has created exceptionally competent people in tech fields.

 

[Infohawk]

Well, we're in luck if this is true.

Wow that is horrible.

 

[MotF Bane]

In badmouthing China, you merely reveal your own insecurity. Their engineering achievements are myriad & growing, from the 3 gorges dam to the Hong Kong airport bridge to their high speed rail system.

Their enormous population coupled with an education system that rewards excellence has created exceptionally competent people in tech fields.

http://articles.cnn.com/2011-05-25/...-gorges-dam-worst-drought-yangtze?_s=PM:WORLD

 

[Infohawk]

In badmouthing China, you merely reveal your own insecurity. Their engineering achievements are myriad & growing, from the 3 gorges dam to the Hong Kong airport bridge to their high speed rail system.

Their enormous population coupled with an education system that rewards excellence has created exceptionally competent people in tech fields.

I'm not saying Chinese are dumb people, but they are new to the technology game and it shows in just about everything they produce, as Motfbane just schooled you on.

And it's frightening how many people seem to admire the Asian educational system. Our system has worked well for generations. We don't need to have everyone know calculus or be engineers. We need a variety of types of people from different backgrounds to approach things in different and new ways. We don't need a legion of people who regurgitate what teacher tells them.

 

[Jhhnn]

I'm not saying Chinese are dumb people, but they are new to the technology game and it shows in just about everything they produce, as Motfbane just schooled you on.

And it's frightening how many people seem to admire the Asian educational system. Our system has worked well for generations. We don't need to have everyone know calculus or be engineers. We need a variety of types of people from different backgrounds to approach things in different and new ways. We don't need a legion of people who regurgitate what teacher tells them.

Schooled? Don't play the twit. The linked article refers to the technical aspects of the dam not at all.

 

[K1052]

Well, we're in luck if this is true.

Either the Japanese or Europeans should be our partners for a host of reasons. Foremost in this particular case they have the experience that we (and the Chinese) lack.

 

[piasabird]

So what japanese company is NTT? Dont look it up just guess?

 

[Schadenfroh]

Either the Japanese or Europeans should be our partners for a host of reasons. Foremost in this particular case they have the experience that we (and the Chinese) lack.

Just because we lack something in America does not mean American companies lack the expertise to implement it properly. Look at the state of our nuclear power program, two of the top companies involved in designing and building modern, safe reactors happen to be American (GE and Westinghouse (American subsidiary of a foreign firm)). They just build / sell their products and services to other countries because we do not demand it here.

 

[ShawnD1]

Lightning? Another stupid excuse from those commies.

This.

I work with train and road signal stuff, and the requirements of these systems are top notch. Situations where two trains are following one after another and the first one stops moving have happened lots of times before, and they have killed people in the past, and that's exactly why modern trains are protected against this kind of thing.

Simple rail systems split the rail itself into "block" segments and these segments can be a couple hundred yards or they can be a couple miles depending on things like rated speed for the block, line of sight, how easy it is to stop. Modern advanced train systems use a "moving block" where the train is the middle of the block and it has a safe distance in front of and behind it. If a train dies on the tracks, everything within X distance will be told to stop, everything outside of that distance will be told to slow down and prepare to stop.

To get an idea of how well these systems work, remember that much of the US is covered in single rail lines. That means there's 1 track, and trains go both directions on this single track. Every few miles there will be a shoulder. If two trains are heading toward each other, one train will pull onto the shoulder and wait for the other train to pass. There are thousands of trains in the US doing this every day and you never hear about them crashing because the communication between them works great and they are given adequate time to stop if needed. These system are used every day and they rarely screw up. A Chinese bullet train might be faster than a freight train but that doesn't mean it's harder to stop. Is it easier to stop a light train full of Chinese people or is it easier to stop a train loaded with millions of pounds of metals, chemicals, logs, and other heavy freight?

China fails again. This is just as pathetic is how my made in china heat gun doesn't work. It's a fucking hair dryer with a bigger heating element and a slower fan. How could anyone possibly screw that up? If someone designs a heating element that doesn't heat up, they should probably just kill themselves.

edit:
Trains use fail-safe systems. They require certain things to be running before they can operate. If the track does not explicitly give permission for the train to operate in a certain area, the train shuts down. It's similar to the air brakes on a big truck. Cutting the brake line on your car means you have no brakes, but cutting the air brakes on a big truck will cause all of the wheels to lock.

 

[sunzt]

This is a horrible tragedy and i hope China learns lessons from this experience.

However, i believe everyone is missing a bigger event as a result from this incident. Chinese citizens are openly speaking out, criticizing and reporting on this event much more openly than in any event i have seen previously. And it seems like the censors are not really doing much to stop them.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/07/25/china.train.accident.outrage/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Chinese netizens outraged over response to fatal bullet train crash

Although Chinese reporters raced to the scene, none of the major state-run newspapers even mentioned the story on their Sunday front pages. A user of Sina Weibo, China's equivalent of Twitter, first broke the story and increasingly popular social media outlets then provided millions of Chinese with the fastest information and pictures as well as the most poignant and scathing commentaries.

...
By the time the railway ministry held its first press conference more than 24 hours after the collision, the public had seen not just reports of passengers trapped inside dark trains or images of a mangled car dangling off the bridge -- but also bulldozers crushing mangled cars that had fallen to the ground and burying the wreckage on site.

...
In a user-generated opinion poll on Sina Weibo on the government's handling of the accident, more than 90 percent of the 30,000 respondents chose the option "terrible -- it doesn't treat us as humans."

Technology and communication improvements are defiantly leading to a more open society.

 

[Schadenfroh]

I'm sure that the state police will be knocking on the doors of critics soon. I assume Sina Weibo (Chinese Twitter) is owned by the state and heavily monitored by government censors?

I am a bit surprised that they are burying the train quickly, guess out of site and out of mind.

 

[Imp]

This is a horrible tragedy and i hope China learns lessons from this experience.

However, i believe everyone is missing a bigger event as a result from this incident. Chinese citizens are openly speaking out, criticizing and reporting on this event much more openly than in any event i have seen previously. And it seems like the censors are not really doing much to stop them.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/07/25/china.train.accident.outrage/index.html?hpt=hp_t2



Technology and communication improvements are defiantly leading to a more open society.

I didn't get why there were excavators digging holes beside the fallen trains. So, they were burying the wreckage, wtf?

 

[a777pilot]

LOL!

I thought these ChiComs were super men and could do no wrong.

 

[MotF Bane]

I didn't get why there were excavators digging holes beside the fallen trains. So, they were burying the wreckage, wtf?

Hiding the evidence of their failure.

 

[alphatarget1]

LOL!

I thought these ChiComs were super men and could do no wrong.

It's not funny that people died.

With that said, it's pathetic that this accident happened. Compared to this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eschede_train_disaster

The German crash was an engineering failure and inspection failure. They certainly didn't bury the train to cover up mistakes and they got to get to the bottom of what happened. You can be sure that the Germans won't make the same mistake twice. I don't think any HSR systems in the US should be built by Chinese companies.

 

[Qianglong]

From the various youtube videos posted there are large flashes of lightening so maybe the "lightening excuse" could be valid. Maybe the lightening didn't strike the train but rather hit the nearby transmission lines. What needs to be seen is why did it take out all of the safety systems?

I mean sh*t like this happen all the time when failsafe system fails - the most recent one is the Air France flight where its pitot tubes completely froze over on a relatively new Airbus which lead to pilot errors and then the disaster.

 

[Infohawk]

It's not funny that people died.

No it's not but I partly blame the media for creating these competitive attitudes among nationalists like a777. Story after story is about China this and China that. You even see suckers here lauding the Chinese educational system when Chinese try to come to the US for school and not vice versa. This is just another reminder that China is over-hyped. They're still a developing country and story after story about fault production / engineering shows this.

 

[kage69]

Conductor probably ate some of that musk deer. Then they got hit by lightning.

Couldn't be the train itself, or a human error. No way.

 

[DesiPower]

RIP victims. God bless their souls

muahahaha, idiot Chinese "scientists"... all they are are crappy reverse engineers. madafakin a$$h0les don't even know how to copy sh1t. They copied the trains and the tracks but forgot to copy the safety features. Morons are planning to sell "their technology" to other nations. Lets see how that flies now beaches. Nothing against the poor Chinese people who have to endure all this crap, but I hope their govt dies a also and painful death.

/supergloat@chinese.gov

 

[Tsavo]

I've read that the safest part of a train is in the middle carriage. RIP.

Nope. The safest place to be during a train wreck is on a boat.