China establishes 'air-defence zone' over East China Sea

[dawheat]

The US isn't going to go to war with China over some disputed, uninhabited islands that the US doesn't care about.

And both China and Japan know this.

Its a bit confusing that a bunch of people here don't.

China and Japan aren't going to go to war over these islands for the foreseeable future. Both of them know this. It's mostly a dick/flag waving contest that might get snippy, but there won't be war in the short or medium term.

I won't presume to guess what can happen 7+ years out - I won't be as naive to think war between first world nations can't occur, but there'd have to be significant and sustained movement from today's relations..

 

[FelixDeCat]

China is a farce.

 

[Dari]

China and Japan aren't going to go to war over these islands for the foreseeable future. Both of them know this. It's mostly a dick/flag waving contest that might get snippy, but there won't be war in the short or medium term.

I won't presume to guess what can happen 7+ years out - I won't be as naive to think war between first world nations can't occur, but there'd have to be significant and sustained movement from today's relations..

As others have said in this thread, China is picking on nations that are not as powerful and trying to established "facts on the ground". Notice how they are scared to death of Russia or never said anything when the United States controlled those islands. As soon as Japan changes its constitution and bulks up, China will have to think very hard about pulling this shit again.

 

[2timer]

Oh, you mean this guy?:

Taiwan President: Mainland China is Still Our Territory

Yes, that would be the guy.

If you think that it's just about "some disputed, inhibited islands" then you're just as dumb as 2Timer.

Back-handed insults is what you got? Stay classy guy.

 

[2timer]

Then why are they concerned about this same "air defense zone"?

http://focustaiwan.tw/news/aipl/201311240001.aspx

Probably because this is going on in their own backyard?

Just a guess...

 

[2timer]

You can't get off that easy with me.

-snip-

OK, you got me. I'm not that much of a Chinaphile to counter all your points. But I'll tell you this, everything I've said in the thread most mainland Chinese would agree with. They hate Japan much more than Russia (due to the dissimilarities in Chinese/Russian cultures), and any attempt by the US to wrangle these islands out of Chinese control will be met with great opposition.

 

[Dari]

OK, you got me. I'm not that much of a Chinaphile to counter all your points. But I'll tell you this, everything I've said in the thread most mainland Chinese would agree with. They hate Japan much more than Russia (due to the dissimilarities in Chinese/Russian cultures), and any attempt by the US to wrangle these islands out of Chinese control will be met with great opposition.

They're already out of Chinese control.

 

[2timer]

They're already out of Chinese control.

They're not in China's control, but I wouldn't say they are completely out of their control, either. Point is, China is looking to establish control and they are setting up an air defense zone to do it.

 

[dawheat]

OK, you got me. I'm not that much of a Chinaphile to counter all your points. But I'll tell you this, everything I've said in the thread most mainland Chinese would agree with. They hate Japan much more than Russia (due to the dissimilarities in Chinese/Russian cultures), and any attempt by the US to wrangle these islands out of Chinese control will be met with great opposition.

So they're going to stop showing up at their factories to work? There is nothing China can do to the US that doesn't hurt them equally.

And there's nothing China can do militarily against US naval or air units unless they want to give the world a demonstration in how to get shot down or sunk.

 

[Karl Agathon]

China will defend its rights to the islands as it should. If the US wants to start a war with China, it will fail even more miserably than it did against both the Taliban in Afghanistan and the insurgents in Iraq. I'd love to see if the US has the political will and the guts to enter into another long drawn out war against a foreign county, especially one that is the biggest trading partner in the region. That would be a huge boost to the US economy, no doubt about it. 😉

I stopped reading at "If the US wants to start a war with China, it will fail even more miserably than it did against both the Taliban in Afghanistan and the insurgents in Iraq" because you're either just an incredibly naive pro-china belligerent nationalist, or you're not even being close to aware of the US naval and air capabilities.

A mostly naval and air war would be a completely different war then fighting against stateless and uniformless fighters in house to house combat. its like comparing apples to oranges. The US would not be fighting with its one hand proverbially tied behind its back.This would be a direct confrontation between navys and airforces.

I know it might be hard for you to accept, but the US 7th fleet ALONE is more then capable of sending most of the Chinese navy to the bottom of the ocean. The Japanese navy itself is still more then a match for Chinese naval forces. Add the US to the mix, and your precious China would be absolutely humiliated.

Don't think so? Oh please please please, launch a first strike against American bases in Japan. Or even better!! Launch one against a carrier battle group. I mean, if China is so supah dupah powerful, it would have absolutely nothing to worry about right? Which makes me wonder? Since China is so unstoppable and supah dupah powerful in your eyes, why haven't they attacked Japan or even the US yet? Whats holding them back?!!? it would be so easy for them to do wouldn't it?

 

[JEDIYoda]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2timer
The US interests? The US's main interest IS China. China is our #2 trade partner and holds a trillion dollars in US debt. The economy of China is only going to grow larger and why would we want to jeopardize that economic relationship? It's pretty obvious where the future is, don't get stuck in the 20th century.

It's obvious you do not fully understand the US's obligations and strategic interests in Asia.

I don`t think 2timer understands anything about that part of the world.....in fact 2timer probably needs to graduate from jr. high school...

 

[JEDIYoda]

And neither do you.

aww is that the best you can do.....

 

[JEDIYoda]

OK, you got me. I'm not that much of a Chinaphile to counter all your points. But I'll tell you this, everything I've said in the thread most mainland Chinese would agree with. They hate Japan much more than Russia (due to the dissimilarities in Chinese/Russian cultures), and any attempt by the US to wrangle these islands out of Chinese control will be met with great opposition.

you are just totally wrong its laughable at best and sad at worst......you know nothing period about anything!!

 

[Karl Agathon]

Delete

 

[Svnla]

OK, you got me. I'm not that much of a Chinaphile to counter all your points. But I'll tell you this, everything I've said in the thread most mainland Chinese would agree with. They hate Japan much more than Russia (due to the dissimilarities in Chinese/Russian cultures), and any attempt by the US to wrangle these islands out of Chinese control will be met with great opposition.

All of my points are true. You can Google them or I can provide links if need be. I don't pull crap out of my butt like certain posters in this forum.

Those islands (islets really because they are so small) are still under Japan control. Bully china is just saying so =! true. Aircrafts and ships from china would not dare to come close to those islands but tiptoe around the sea and air border just to make them feel all hard core tough.

Commie china is brainwashing its citizens to divert the people attention from all the corruption from the top down and excessive pollution in the air, land, and water.

Commie china right now is acting just like Nazi German before WWII, to get even/revenge of all the wrong years ago (WWI for Germany). If commie china chooses to do so, it will learn the harsh and bitter lesson as Germany did in 1945.

The funny thing is china and chinese are all hot and bother about some tiny little pecks in the sea in which almost no one lives there yet would not dare to say anything about all of the vast amount of land that Russia took from them for hundreds of years. Commie china and chinese jumped up and down for war when Japan Coast Guard detained a chinese ship because of illegal fishing yet would not dare to say anything when Russian Navy shot and sunk chinese ships multiple times over several years. Do you see my points yet? I bet you would not find any chinese in china dare to say anything about that. Most of them did not even know about those incidents and historic facts.

One more thing, with the proven history of chinese fighting versus competent military forces for the last few thousands years, I would not brag about combat or war.

 

[2timer]

you are just totally wrong its laughable at best and sad at worst......you know nothing period about anything!!

Bwa ha ha ha... What an excellent rebuttal - "You are wrong and know nothing!" That's just brilliant, I'll have to remember that next time I want to prove a point. 😀

What's funny in this situation is that out of the two of us, one has lived in China for almost two years, speaks some Mandarin, and is very familiar with Chinese culture... And it isn't you bud 😀

 

[2timer]

I stopped reading at "If the US wants to start a war with China, it will fail even more miserably than it did against both the Taliban in Afghanistan and the insurgents in Iraq" because you're either just an incredibly naive pro-china belligerent nationalist, or you're not even being close to aware of the US naval and air capabilities.

A mostly naval and air war would be a completely different war then fighting against stateless and uniformless fighters in house to house combat. its like comparing apples to oranges. The US would not be fighting with its one hand proverbially tied behind its back.This would be a direct confrontation between navys and airforces.

I know it might be hard for you to accept, but the US 7th fleet ALONE is more then capable of sending most of the Chinese navy to the bottom of the ocean. The Japanese navy itself is still more then a match for Chinese naval forces. Add the US to the mix, and your precious China would be absolutely humiliated.

Don't think so? Oh please please please, launch a first strike against American bases in Japan. Or even better!! Launch one against a carrier battle group. I mean, if China is so supah dupah powerful, it would have absolutely nothing to worry about right? Which makes me wonder? Since China is so unstoppable and supah dupah powerful in your eyes, why haven't they attacked Japan or even the US yet? Whats holding them back?!!? it would be so easy for them to do wouldn't it?

I'll give you it's a debatable point. Most people informed about the region agree, the war in Afghanistan was a strategic failure for the US. But speaking on China, it would really depend on the motivation for the war. If the United States ever believed that their existence was threatened by China, I agree they would inflict the heavy damage you spoke about and they are capable of. But if the war was over the Diaoyu islands and there was no political will to fight, it would be very different scenario.

I guess you have to realize that China would never risk a direct confrontation with the US, and vice versa. Can you name a scenario where both countries would be prepared to launch nuclear missiles at each other? It's ridiculous. Obviously that's not what I was talking about.

The US needs to wake up and realize that Japan is pulling our strings like a puppet in this. Any conflict over these islands that the US is drawn into will hurt our interests in the region far more than either Japan or China. I would simply let China take the territory that is rightfully theirs rather than risk the political and economic blowback that is coming.

 

[Dari]

All of my points are true. You can Google them or I can provide links if need be. I don't pull crap out of my butt like certain posters in this forum.

Those islands (islets really because they are so small) are still under Japan control. Bully china is just saying so =! true. Aircrafts and ships from china would not dare to come close to those islands but tiptoe around the sea and air border just to make them feel all hard core tough.

Commie china is brainwashing its citizens to divert the people attention from all the corruption from the top down and excessive pollution in the air, land, and water.

Commie china right now is acting just like Nazi German before WWII, to get even/revenge of all the wrong years ago (WWI for Germany). If commie china chooses to do so, it will learn the harsh and bitter lesson as Germany did in 1945.

The funny thing is china and chinese are all hot and bother about some tiny little pecks in the sea in which almost no one lives there yet would not dare to say anything about all of the vast amount of land that Russia took from them for hundreds of years. Commie china and chinese jumped up and down for war when Japan Coast Guard detained a chinese ship because of illegal fishing yet would not dare to say anything when Russian Navy shot and sunk chinese ships multiple times over several years. Do you see my points yet? I bet you would not find any chinese in china dare to say anything about that. Most of them did not even know about those incidents and historic facts.

One more thing, with the proven history of chinese fighting versus competent military forces for the last few thousands years, I would not brag about combat or war.

To be fair Russia did return some land to them after 40 years of negotiations…

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2008-07/21/content_6861827.htm

 

[Dari]

On another note, I wonder if China will claim these islands…

http://www.theverge.com/2013/11/21/5128972/volcano-makes-new-island-620-miles-south-of-tokyo

 

[redhotiron2004]

On another note, I wonder if China will claim these islands

 

[redhotiron2004]

@dari: http://www.theverge.com/2013/11/21/5128972/volcano-makes-new-island-620-miles-south-of-tokyo

Oh yes! They are perfectly chinese.
Would you take the risk of a direct confrontation for something that is inhabitated by noone.

Just let the chinese have what rightfully belongs to them. 😉

 

[Londo_Jowo]

This is all about the vast oil and gas reserves in the China Sea (East & South). China sure does claim a huge area so far from their coastline.

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/...or-us-as-tensions-rise-in-troubled-china-seas

Doesn't look like the Japanese are very afraid of protecting what the consider to be theirs.

Many of their neighbors are already tapping into those oil and gas reserves (Maybe 213 billion barrels of oil). There are some big platforms in the region as well as FPSO's. I've been on several Vietnamese and Malaysian platforms and an Indonesian FPSO.

http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/11/south-china-sea-may-hold-213-billion.html

 

[Svnla]

Just let the chinese have what rightfully belongs to them. 😉

I would simply let China take the territory that is rightfully theirs rather than risk the political and economic blowback that is coming.

Ok, we can play that game, "rightfully theirs".

By using the same logic, Korea can claim all the old land from its ancient kingdoms (North of Yalu River).

Vietnam can claim back its old land from its ancient kingdoms (Guangxi and Guangdong of china).

Japan can claim parts of china.

India can claim parts of china.

Britain can claim parts of china.

Manchuria can claim all of china.

Mongolia can claim all of china.

And I am not even begin with Tibet, Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia, Tajikistan, and so on.

You two and brainwashed chinese will lose badly with that kind of logic.

To be fair Russia did return some land to them after 40 years of negotiations…

[URL]http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2008-07/21/content_6861827.htm[/URL]

This is what I am talking about, not some tiny little land/island but 600,000 square kilometers of land taken from chinese by force after Russia slaughtered chinese like sheeps (and china and chinese are still would not dare to say or do anything, how sad and pathetic. No chanting of "rightfully theirs"):

The Treaty of Aigun (Russian: Айгунский Договор; simplified Chinese: 瑷珲条约; traditional Chinese: 璦琿條約; pinyin: Àihún Tiáoyuē) was an 1858 treaty between the Russian Empire, and the empire of the Qing Dynasty, the sinicized-Manchu rulers of China, that established much of the modern border between the Russian Far East and Manchuria (the original homeland of the Manchu people and the Qing Dynasty), which is now known as Northeast China.[1] It reversed the Treaty of Nerchinsk (1689) by transferring the land between the Stanovoy Mountains and the Amur River from China (Qing Empire) to the Russian Empire. Russia received over 600,000 square kilometres (231,660 sq mi) from China.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Aigun

 

[cyclohexane]

Who gives a shit? The US basically claims all of the Carribean waters militarily, and even has a prison (Guantanamo) on an enemy country.

the rule of the world is, if you can do something and no else can stop you, then you are in the right.

 

[piasabird]

Well that is not in accordance with international laws, so they can sit on that and turn around like a top if they want to. What about Taiwan and Japan and the phillipines and all the other countries like South Korea and their 1,000+ islands?

This is a prelude to war.