China engineering?

[rchiu]

I don't think Chinese can send astronauts to space simply by reverse engineering all the technologies. Many of those technologies are probably top secret in the US or Russia, they must got some of the technology by themselves.

But hey, if they are good enough to reverse engineer advanced technology enough to send people to space, I'd all the power to them.

 

[Looney]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: Looney
LOL somebody feeling threatened? Go into any R&D or engineering lab, and you're going to see LOTS of asians there, including Chinese.

I work in an R&D engineering lab. My advisor is an Indian. We have one American and one Chinese chemist in our lab. Both engineers are Americans, including myself.

Sure there are lots of Asians, but there are a lot more Indians than Chinese (by at least 4:1). I'm in graduate school for engineering, which has a much higher fraction of Asians than does industrial engineering. Extrapolate that, noting that there are about 40,000 bachelors in chemical engineering graduating each year and about 650 PhDs in chemical engineering. Very few undergrads are from Asia (2 out of 160 here, 0 out of 145 at my undergrad institution). Therefore, your assertion that "a large proportion of the 'American' engineering are done by Chinese living in America anyways" is simply false. Even though we have about 6-7 Chinese PhD students, none of them has stayed/plans on staying here after graduation. Most of them can't even if they wanted to for a variety of reasons. Bottom line: I'm not the one out of touch here, and I'm certainly not threatened by the 'large proportion of Chinese' doing all our engineering, especially since I don't know a single Chinese engineer in industry here in the US.

Because you work in a lab of 3 people, you know how the industry is? Perhaps, but from families of mine who work in the industry, they tell me otherwise (ATI, Research in Motion, Sun Microsystems).

 

[Generator]

The government may well indeed be hindering creative growth, but it is unlikely. Any fool who believes the chinese are incapable of producing something just as brilliant as any other country needs a few slices of humble pie. Quite simply there are millions of these damn people. They go to American universities and go back home eventually. They are just as smart, just a capable, and the only reason they haven't really engineered something for Americans notice is because all an Americans wants are frito lays.

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: Looney
LOL somebody feeling threatened? Go into any R&D or engineering lab, and you're going to see LOTS of asians there, including Chinese.

I work in an R&D engineering lab. My advisor is an Indian. We have one American and one Chinese chemist in our lab. Both engineers are Americans, including myself.

Sure there are lots of Asians, but there are a lot more Indians than Chinese (by at least 4:1). I'm in graduate school for engineering, which has a much higher fraction of Asians than does industrial engineering. Extrapolate that, noting that there are about 40,000 bachelors in chemical engineering graduating each year and about 650 PhDs in chemical engineering. Very few undergrads are from Asia (2 out of 160 here, 0 out of 145 at my undergrad institution). Therefore, your assertion that "a large proportion of the 'American' engineering are done by Chinese living in America anyways" is simply false. Even though we have about 6-7 Chinese PhD students, none of them has stayed/plans on staying here after graduation. Most of them can't even if they wanted to for a variety of reasons. Bottom line: I'm not the one out of touch here, and I'm certainly not threatened by the 'large proportion of Chinese' doing all our engineering, especially since I don't know a single Chinese engineer in industry here in the US.

It really depends on the industry. I would imagine that there wouldn't be as many foreign students in chemical engineering as there are in electrical engineering (my field) in most schools, and a prestigious school like Wash U would probably be primarily domestic students whereas a no-name state school would be primarily international.

Out in Silicon Valley, there are many Chinese (as well as other minorities, but especially Chinese & Indians). And by many, I mean HUGE amounts in the engineering companies there. I wouldn't hesitate to say that many divisions or whole companies (smaller ones) are primarily Chinese or Indian.

Of course, I don't understand why this topic was originally brought up... it's not like the Chinese are genetically incapable of engineering work, lol.

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

It really depends on the industry. I would imagine that there wouldn't be as many foreign students in chemical engineering as there are in electrical engineering (my field) in most schools, and a prestigious school like Wash U would probably be primarily domestic students whereas a no-name state school would be primarily international.

Out in Silicon Valley, there are many Chinese (as well as other minorities, but especially Chinese & Indians). And by many, I mean HUGE amounts in the engineering companies there. I wouldn't hesitate to say that many divisions or whole companies (smaller ones) are primarily Chinese or Indian.

Of course, I don't understand why this topic was originally brought up... it's not like the Chinese are genetically incapable of engineering work, lol.

I don't think that statement is correct. I went to Purdue for engineering and it's a top 10 engieering program. There is a high percentage of Asian/International students, especially higher up in the Masters and Ph.D program.

As for the topic, contrary to what OP stated, Chinese are actually more capable of engineering work than the US born people. Well, maybe not genetically but culturally. People who go to engineering schools are called geeks in the US. People who go to engineering schools, especially the good ones are highly respected in Asian culture. It's totally different mentality. There is just more motivation culturally for Chinese/Asian to get into good engineering school than the US people.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: Looney
Because you work in a lab of 3 people, you know how the industry is? Perhaps, but from families of mine who work in the industry, they tell me otherwise (ATI, Research in Motion, Sun Microsystems).

You told me to go work in an R&D/engineering lab and see for myself. I said I do work in an R&D engineering lab. Therefore, I do see for myself. So now it boils down to your anecdotes versus my statistics - an internet impasse.

P.S. An Indian, three Americans, and a Chinese person does not three-person lab make.

Originally posted by: CanOWorms
It really depends on the industry. I would imagine that there wouldn't be as many foreign students in chemical engineering as there are in electrical engineering (my field) in most schools, and a prestigious school like Wash U would probably be primarily domestic students whereas a no-name state school would be primarily international.

That may be, but even here there are lots of Asians in my program. Like I said though, there are a lot more Indians than Chinese. My class has one Chinese, one Indian, one Serbian, and three Americans. The overall grad student composition of our department is slightly heavier towards the Indian than the American though, with probably about 2:1 American:Chinese.

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

It really depends on the industry. I would imagine that there wouldn't be as many foreign students in chemical engineering as there are in electrical engineering (my field) in most schools, and a prestigious school like Wash U would probably be primarily domestic students whereas a no-name state school would be primarily international.

Out in Silicon Valley, there are many Chinese (as well as other minorities, but especially Chinese & Indians). And by many, I mean HUGE amounts in the engineering companies there. I wouldn't hesitate to say that many divisions or whole companies (smaller ones) are primarily Chinese or Indian.

Of course, I don't understand why this topic was originally brought up... it's not like the Chinese are genetically incapable of engineering work, lol.

I don't think that statement is correct. I went to Purdue for engineering and it's a top 10 engieering program. There is a high percentage of Asian/International students, especially higher up in the Masters and Ph.D program.

As for the topic, contrary to what OP stated, Chinese are actually more capable of engineering work than the US born people. Well, maybe not genetically but culturally. People who go to engineering schools are called geeks in the US. People who go to engineering schools, especially the good ones are highly respected in Asian culture. It's totally different mentality. There is just more motivation culturally for Chinese/Asian to get into good engineering school than the US people.

The statement is generally correct, but you're misinterpreting it. There will be a high percentage of international students at all US engineering schools b/c they're considered the top schools in the world. However, at a good school, the percentage is much less - like 40% vs. 75%.

I actually disagree that Chinese are more capable of engineering work than US born people though. Cultural reasons may have different values on fields, but I feel that in the US, students of all backgrounds have to be more well rounded whereas in most other countries, that's not required. It's one of the reasons why I think the US is the leader right now. Schools don't only look for intelligent people, they look for intelligent people who are well rounded, and especially potential leaders. Your acceptance isn't solely based on a test score.

I think that engineers may be called geeks, but that's not a big problem, and I think engineers that go to prestigious engineering schools are respected. I think that's true with all fields.

 

[Remy XO]

I think it has alot to do with culture also. Chinese people are very traditional and reserved. When you think of some of the new technologies today do you think the Chinese are really interested in these high tech gadgets?

 

[5150Joker]

Originally posted by: Looney

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: Looney
But a large proportion of the 'American' engineering are done by Chinese living in America anyways.

I don't think so, chief.

LOL somebody feeling threatened? Go into any R&D or engineering lab, and you're going to see LOTS of asians there, including Chinese.

It's true, you'll find more Indians and Chinese in American R&D labs than you will Whites. The same is true in universities where Whites (esp. men) take liberal art classes more than anything else.

 

[Looney]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: Looney
Because you work in a lab of 3 people, you know how the industry is? Perhaps, but from families of mine who work in the industry, they tell me otherwise (ATI, Research in Motion, Sun Microsystems).

You told me to go work in an R&D/engineering lab and see for myself. I said I do work in an R&D engineering lab. Therefore, I do see for myself. So now it boils down to your anecdotes versus my statistics - an internet impasse.

Well i'm hoping there are people from those companies who would back up my statements. Those aren't small companies, so i'm sure there are some employees here who can confirm that.

And where are your statistics? Unless you somehow mean your anecdotes are statistics?

 

[Looney]

Schools don't only look for intelligent people, they look for intelligent people who are well rounded, and especially potential leaders. Your acceptance isn't solely based on a test score.

They do though. Grad schools in all fields are heavily dependent on GRE, GMAT, LSAT etc.

 

[will889]

I have no doubt that other Nations will do with weaponry as what Japan did with automobiles. That would be to take what we have done and do it better. No use in designing from the ground up you can steal/alter known good hardware/design for you're own liking.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: 5150Joker
It's true, you'll find more Indians and Chinese in American R&D labs than you will Whites. The same is true in universities where Whites (esp. men) take liberal art classes more than anything else.

Engineering != R&D. There are a LOT of Chinese women in our ophthalmology department (where I do my research) doing the grunt work (i.e. chemists, biochemists, molecular biologists). However, lab technicians != engineers. There are zero PIs that are Chinese out of 42 faculty. Zero Chinese PIs out of ~15 faculty in our chemical engineering department as well.

Originally posted by: Looney
Well i'm hoping there are people from those companies who would back up my statements. Those aren't small companies, so i'm sure there are some employees here who can confirm that.

And where are your statistics? Unless you somehow mean your anecdotes are statistics?

My 'anecdotes' are based on personal experience and published statistics by the American Chemical Society. They put out an annual run-down of the numbers.

Originally posted by: Looney
They do though. Grad schools in all fields are heavily dependent on GRE, GMAT, LSAT etc.

Not for engineering, where the GRE is a litmus test only - if you score above a certain score, you won't be dismissed. Having a perfect score won't guarantee your admittance, as I know all too well. Anyway, the GRE is hardly a measure of intelligence. It measures your abilities in very specific areas. IMO, the most important area on it now is the written essay section (critiquing a poorly-reasoned argument, writing a well-reasoned argument), as this is typically the most vital for a real researcher. The math is more logic-based than requiring any real advanced math knowledge, and the verbal section measures your ability to define words that you've never seen before (unless you took a lot of Latin in high school, like me ).

 

[Looney]

And where are your statistics? Unless you somehow mean your anecdotes are statistics?

My 'anecdotes' are based on personal experience and published statistics by the American Chemical Society. They put out an annual run-down of the numbers.

That's what 'anecdotes' are... personal experiences.

As for the published statistics... did i miss them in the thread somewhere? If so, i'll appreciate if you would recite it. Thanks!

 

[mackle]

Just imaging that the % of Asian vs. The whole school. Even if they all average students which give them a better view when comparing with the whole school. They maybe in the top 10 but they not always first.

 

[eilute]

Originally posted by: RichardE
Does China come up with any of it's own technological accomplishments? Or does it backward engineer everything? Is there anything China has come up with on it's own?

I think they are developing internet filters.

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: eilute

Originally posted by: RichardE
Does China come up with any of it's own technological accomplishments? Or does it backward engineer everything? Is there anything China has come up with on it's own?

I think they are developing internet filters.

Pretty good so far.

 

[eilute]

Here's an google search for "tienamen square" on an American server

search: "tienamen square"

and here it is on a Chinese server

search: "tienamen square"

 

[RichardE]

Wow...never realised it was "that" bad.

"leaves fantasy world"

 

[RichardE]

Tienamen square murder

Seems they have a way to go, 3rd link or 4th link down.

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: Looney

Schools don't only look for intelligent people, they look for intelligent people who are well rounded, and especially potential leaders. Your acceptance isn't solely based on a test score.

They do though. Grad schools in all fields are heavily dependent on GRE, GMAT, LSAT etc.

I was primarily talking about undergrad, but the GRE is not a vital stat for engineering schools IMO. The LSAT, GMAT, and MCAT matter much, much more for their respective fields. Law schools primarily look at undergrad GPA and LSAT, so that's an exception to what I was saying.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Martin
I read a very ironic quote from VW's CEO from 1995, where by he says (and I paraphrase). "The chinese may be great at copying and producing simple things like CD players, but a car is too complex for that to happen".

Well, fast forward 10 years and you see VW losing massive market share to dozens of Chinese auto companies that have copied numerous designs.

On to the question of designs, my answer would be this: while they do very little on their own today, once they have mastered manufacturing the next step would be to design their own things.
So while they design very little on their own today, I highly doubt that will stay the same 10 to 15 years from now. After all, every other "asian tiger" has followed this process, so it'll be very hard for someone to convince me that the Chinese are somehow so fundamentally different from the Japanese, South Koreans, Taiwanese etc, that manufacturing will be the end of their progress.

"Made in Japan" used to be synonomous with junk, now look, they are opening plants and hiring Americans to make their "junk".

 

[Zebo]

Oxymoron like chinese art. A police state is'nt really condusive to creation or independnt thought. We lets these RRR's, as dave calls them, take over USA we'll have same problem.

 

[dexvx]

Originally posted by: Zebo
Oxymoron like chinese art. A police state is'nt really condusive to creation or independnt thought. We lets these RRR's, as dave calls them, take over USA we'll have same problem.

Oh get over your 4 decade old view of China. The general irony is that China is one of the first modern instances of where a state-directed economy works (at least for the past 20 years).