China apologists

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BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
62,679
11,022
136
Originally posted by: sunzt

All 1.3 Billion people cannot make a living in China.... so some people will risk it to find opportunity. Don't forget that modern China is still a DEVELOPING country, so there are better places. Remember, most Chinese do not HATE the US, but most Americans HATE China. Many Chinese students cannot get into Chinese universities either so they go elsewhere, Australia and Europe more so than the USA these days.


Many people would love to come America because there is lots of opportunity here and LESS COMPETITION. Lots of people would like to visit, but many are doing well just in China.

So they go to foreign countries where other students have to compete with them?


Originally posted by: sunzt
You may hate the government (and yes, there's lots of room for improvement), but you can't deny that their policies have led to dramatic improvements in standards of living, and the emergence of China as a world player in only 30 years.

I curse the ghost of Richard Nixon for opening the door to the yellow menace...;)
(check the batteries on your sarcasm meter before flaming!)
 

sunzt

Diamond Member
Nov 27, 2003
3,076
3
81
Originally posted by: BoomerD
Originally posted by: sunzt

All 1.3 Billion people cannot make a living in China.... so some people will risk it to find opportunity. Don't forget that modern China is still a DEVELOPING country, so there are better places. Remember, most Chinese do not HATE the US, but most Americans HATE China. Many Chinese students cannot get into Chinese universities either so they go elsewhere, Australia and Europe more so than the USA these days.


Many people would love to come America because there is lots of opportunity here and LESS COMPETITION. Lots of people would like to visit, but many are doing well just in China.

So they go to foreign countries where other students have to compete with them?

Haha, compared to Chinese students and the Chinese education system foreign universities are CAKE. Have you attended a top university anywhere in the US lately? Yeah it's always those damn foreign Asians, not just from China, who are always screwing up the curves! Especially those damn Singaporeans! Of course I'm just bitter cause I didn't get to join their study groups too often hehe.
 

CottonRabbit

Golden Member
Apr 28, 2005
1,026
0
0
Originally posted by: BoomerD
Originally posted by: sunzt

All 1.3 Billion people cannot make a living in China.... so some people will risk it to find opportunity. Don't forget that modern China is still a DEVELOPING country, so there are better places. Remember, most Chinese do not HATE the US, but most Americans HATE China. Many Chinese students cannot get into Chinese universities either so they go elsewhere, Australia and Europe more so than the USA these days.


Many people would love to come America because there is lots of opportunity here and LESS COMPETITION. Lots of people would like to visit, but many are doing well just in China.

So they go to foreign countries where other students have to compete with them?

I think you should be proud instead of offended that the US has the best universities in the world and thus attracts the brightest minds from foreign nations.

As for why there are so many China apologists, I think when you're as rabidly anti-China as some posters are on this forum, even the average indifferent American will appear as an apologist to you. If you're attitude is you either hate their guts and curse them in your sleep, or you're a commie, then yes, every forum will have apologists.

And the whole if you like them so much, why don't you leave argument is extremely childish. Not hating China and liking the US isn't mutually exclusive.
 

moshquerade

No Lifer
Nov 1, 2001
61,713
12
56
Originally posted by: sunzt
Originally posted by: BoomerD
Originally posted by: sunzt

All 1.3 Billion people cannot make a living in China.... so some people will risk it to find opportunity. Don't forget that modern China is still a DEVELOPING country, so there are better places. Remember, most Chinese do not HATE the US, but most Americans HATE China. Many Chinese students cannot get into Chinese universities either so they go elsewhere, Australia and Europe more so than the USA these days.


Many people would love to come America because there is lots of opportunity here and LESS COMPETITION. Lots of people would like to visit, but many are doing well just in China.

So they go to foreign countries where other students have to compete with them?

Haha, compared to Chinese students and the Chinese education system foreign universities are CAKE. Have you attended a top university anywhere in the US lately? Yeah it's always those damn foreign Asians, not just from China, who are always screwing up the curves! Especially those damn Singaporeans! Of course I'm just bitter cause I didn't get to join their study groups too often hehe.
I don't buy into your brag that Asians are born genetically more intelligent. I believe it's based on how they are raised. Asian parents put a lot more emphasis on education. It is their number one priority. They discourage extra curricular activities so as not to distract from education. Asian parents put a lot of pressure on their children to succeed and make a lot of money, and that is first hand information, from the horse's mouth so to speak.
 

FlashG

Platinum Member
Dec 23, 1999
2,712
2
0
Originally posted by: hunewbie
Originally posted by: FlashG
Originally posted by: hunewbie
Originally posted by: FlashG
Originally posted by: Sawyer
Every single board I have been on where there is a topic about china and the Olympics, there are always China apologists, I do not get this. How can any sane person defend or support China?
Apologists = Posters on the Chinese dime - anti American haters - asshole debaters - misguided patriots ? students with no life.

At least we have some semblance of a freedom of speech. Even for those previously mentioned.

Freedom of Speech --- But still, think before you speak and not be an ass about it...i dont mind the bashing of the government...just not the bashing of it's people who had done nothing wrong...
hunewbie, I wasn't bashing the PEOPLE but you knew that.


i knew that. refering to the masses...
The thread is about the government OK? IMHO the Chinese government is FUBAR'd.

 

sunzt

Diamond Member
Nov 27, 2003
3,076
3
81
Originally posted by: moshquerade
Originally posted by: sunzt
Originally posted by: BoomerD
Originally posted by: sunzt

All 1.3 Billion people cannot make a living in China.... so some people will risk it to find opportunity. Don't forget that modern China is still a DEVELOPING country, so there are better places. Remember, most Chinese do not HATE the US, but most Americans HATE China. Many Chinese students cannot get into Chinese universities either so they go elsewhere, Australia and Europe more so than the USA these days.


Many people would love to come America because there is lots of opportunity here and LESS COMPETITION. Lots of people would like to visit, but many are doing well just in China.

So they go to foreign countries where other students have to compete with them?

Haha, compared to Chinese students and the Chinese education system foreign universities are CAKE. Have you attended a top university anywhere in the US lately? Yeah it's always those damn foreign Asians, not just from China, who are always screwing up the curves! Especially those damn Singaporeans! Of course I'm just bitter cause I didn't get to join their study groups too often hehe.
I don't buy into your brag that Asians are born genetically more intelligent. I believe it's based on how they are raised. Asian parents put a lot more emphasis on education. It is their number one priority. They discourage extra curricular activities so as not to distract from education. Asian parents put a lot of pressure on their children to succeed and make a lot of money, and that is first hand information, from the horse's mouth so to speak.

I never said and was not trying to imply genetic superiority. I agree with what you say, because i too had that first hand information... from the horse's mouth...

However, I don't buy that every human race is genetically identical or that every race has the same genetic capabilities.
 

moshquerade

No Lifer
Nov 1, 2001
61,713
12
56
Originally posted by: sunzt
Originally posted by: moshquerade
Originally posted by: sunzt
Originally posted by: BoomerD
Originally posted by: sunzt

All 1.3 Billion people cannot make a living in China.... so some people will risk it to find opportunity. Don't forget that modern China is still a DEVELOPING country, so there are better places. Remember, most Chinese do not HATE the US, but most Americans HATE China. Many Chinese students cannot get into Chinese universities either so they go elsewhere, Australia and Europe more so than the USA these days.


Many people would love to come America because there is lots of opportunity here and LESS COMPETITION. Lots of people would like to visit, but many are doing well just in China.

So they go to foreign countries where other students have to compete with them?

Haha, compared to Chinese students and the Chinese education system foreign universities are CAKE. Have you attended a top university anywhere in the US lately? Yeah it's always those damn foreign Asians, not just from China, who are always screwing up the curves! Especially those damn Singaporeans! Of course I'm just bitter cause I didn't get to join their study groups too often hehe.
I don't buy into your brag that Asians are born genetically more intelligent. I believe it's based on how they are raised. Asian parents put a lot more emphasis on education. It is their number one priority. They discourage extra curricular activities so as not to distract from education. Asian parents put a lot of pressure on their children to succeed and make a lot of money, and that is first hand information, from the horse's mouth so to speak.

I never said and was not trying to imply genetic superiority. I agree with what you say, because i too had that first hand information... from the horse's mouth...
you definitely were implying that Asians were of superior intelligence.

However, I don't buy that every human race is genetically identical or that every race has the same genetic capabilities.
how many human races are there? i thought there was just one.

 

sunzt

Diamond Member
Nov 27, 2003
3,076
3
81
Originally posted by: moshquerade
Originally posted by: sunzt
Originally posted by: moshquerade
Originally posted by: sunzt
Originally posted by: BoomerD
Originally posted by: sunzt

All 1.3 Billion people cannot make a living in China.... so some people will risk it to find opportunity. Don't forget that modern China is still a DEVELOPING country, so there are better places. Remember, most Chinese do not HATE the US, but most Americans HATE China. Many Chinese students cannot get into Chinese universities either so they go elsewhere, Australia and Europe more so than the USA these days.


Many people would love to come America because there is lots of opportunity here and LESS COMPETITION. Lots of people would like to visit, but many are doing well just in China.

So they go to foreign countries where other students have to compete with them?

Haha, compared to Chinese students and the Chinese education system foreign universities are CAKE. Have you attended a top university anywhere in the US lately? Yeah it's always those damn foreign Asians, not just from China, who are always screwing up the curves! Especially those damn Singaporeans! Of course I'm just bitter cause I didn't get to join their study groups too often hehe.
I don't buy into your brag that Asians are born genetically more intelligent. I believe it's based on how they are raised. Asian parents put a lot more emphasis on education. It is their number one priority. They discourage extra curricular activities so as not to distract from education. Asian parents put a lot of pressure on their children to succeed and make a lot of money, and that is first hand information, from the horse's mouth so to speak.

I never said and was not trying to imply genetic superiority. I agree with what you say, because i too had that first hand information... from the horse's mouth...
you definitely were implying that Asians were of superior intelligence.

However, I don't buy that every human race is genetically identical or that every race has the same genetic capabilities.
how many human races are there? i thought there was just one.

I was trying to say that Asians have experienced harder education systems and are used to harder, more intense work. Hence they have an easier time in other systems.

For example: Japanese education system intensity and difficulty reaches the peak at the end of high school, but is easier once you get into it. The US system is a breeze during high school, but peaks during graduate school.

Ever hear of race discrimination? There's one species, but there are many races... but that's getting into grammatical technicalities and how one interprets the word races.
 

hunewbie

Member
Sep 18, 2007
151
0
0
Originally posted by: GeneValgene
most chinese people are brainwashed by the government

(me = chinese)


...as if modern media and the government did not brainwashed the masses here in the states?

(me = american)

 

yhelothar

Lifer
Dec 11, 2002
18,408
39
91
Originally posted by: fishjie
Originally posted by: Sawyer
LOL yeah an oppressive government is the best!

dont believe the media hype. have you ever even been to china? didnt think so.

america has pretty much OKed illegal wiretapping without need for warrants. it has also OKed illegal detention of suspected "terrorists" with no legal counsel and OKs their torture. there have already been reports of innocent people who were mistaken for terrorists who got tortured and imprisoned.

under the bush administration, the power of the executive branch has been increased while the judicial has been weakened.

so if you want to talk about oppressive governments, well guess what, the united states is not a beacon of shining light. especially considering its history.

i don't know what stuff you heard that you thought was media hype, but whatever this bush administration has done to undo our freedoms doesn't even begin to hold a candle to China's atrocious human right policies.

There was this group of poets that got together weekly at this cafe to write works about freedom and democracy. One day, all of them were missing. One managed to escape the labor camps. The other two were never to be seen again.

Tens of thousands in china that practice a form of meditation called falun-gong are also captured and tortured.
http://chinaview.wordpress.com...torture-methods-photo/

China is the only superpower now that still carries these barbaric human rights policies.
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,862
84
91
older chinese people and folks who grew up indoctrinated by the chinese educational system probably have no problem being apologists.
its a place filled with censorship and official history. if the us were like that you'd have your searches for things like Guantanamo bay blocked, and you could guess what a cess pool such a country would quickly become.
 

Turin39789

Lifer
Nov 21, 2000
12,219
8
81
Originally posted by: hunewbie
Originally posted by: FlashG
Originally posted by: hunewbie
Originally posted by: FlashG
Originally posted by: Sawyer
Every single board I have been on where there is a topic about china and the Olympics, there are always China apologists, I do not get this. How can any sane person defend or support China?
Apologists = Posters on the Chinese dime - anti American haters - asshole debaters - misguided patriots ? students with no life.

At least we have some semblance of a freedom of speech. Even for those previously mentioned.

Freedom of Speech --- But still, think before you speak and not be an ass about it...i dont mind the bashing of the government...just not the bashing of it's people who had done nothing wrong...
hunewbie, I wasn't bashing the PEOPLE but you knew that.


i knew that. refering to the masses...

WTF? The masses don't bash the people either, they bash the government of china, the people in charge, the corruption the pollution, etc.

 

Eeezee

Diamond Member
Jul 23, 2005
9,923
0
0
Originally posted by: pclstyle
uh, i don't see how this post necessarily has to belong in P&N. A few threads down there's the 'china revoking visa' thread that has garnered plenty of response. jumping on the 'let's link P&N cause we think it's so fucking witty to do" bandwagon is in a word, idiotic.

When in doubt, put the tread in P&N

China revoking visa sounds like it could go in either, whereas "China apologists" is almost asking for flames and is therefore P&N only
 

Eeezee

Diamond Member
Jul 23, 2005
9,923
0
0
Originally posted by: astroidea
Originally posted by: fishjie
Originally posted by: Sawyer
LOL yeah an oppressive government is the best!

dont believe the media hype. have you ever even been to china? didnt think so.

america has pretty much OKed illegal wiretapping without need for warrants. it has also OKed illegal detention of suspected "terrorists" with no legal counsel and OKs their torture. there have already been reports of innocent people who were mistaken for terrorists who got tortured and imprisoned.

under the bush administration, the power of the executive branch has been increased while the judicial has been weakened.

so if you want to talk about oppressive governments, well guess what, the united states is not a beacon of shining light. especially considering its history.

i don't know what stuff you heard that you thought was media hype, but whatever this bush administration has done to undo our freedoms doesn't even begin to hold a candle to China's atrocious human right policies.

There was this group of poets that got together weekly at this cafe to write works about freedom and democracy. One day, all of them were missing. One managed to escape the labor camps. The other two were never to be seen again.

Tens of thousands in china that practice a form of meditation called falun-gong are also captured and tortured.
http://chinaview.wordpress.com...torture-methods-photo/

China is the only superpower now that still carries these barbaric human rights policies.

I agree, but I'd rather concentrate on my country's shitty abuses of freedom before I worry about another country's human rights policies.

Here's a hint: As an American citizen, I have more influence on the policies of one country than the other. Can you guess which?
 

yhelothar

Lifer
Dec 11, 2002
18,408
39
91
Originally posted by: Eeezee
Originally posted by: astroidea
Originally posted by: fishjie
Originally posted by: Sawyer
LOL yeah an oppressive government is the best!

dont believe the media hype. have you ever even been to china? didnt think so.

america has pretty much OKed illegal wiretapping without need for warrants. it has also OKed illegal detention of suspected "terrorists" with no legal counsel and OKs their torture. there have already been reports of innocent people who were mistaken for terrorists who got tortured and imprisoned.

under the bush administration, the power of the executive branch has been increased while the judicial has been weakened.

so if you want to talk about oppressive governments, well guess what, the united states is not a beacon of shining light. especially considering its history.

i don't know what stuff you heard that you thought was media hype, but whatever this bush administration has done to undo our freedoms doesn't even begin to hold a candle to China's atrocious human right policies.

There was this group of poets that got together weekly at this cafe to write works about freedom and democracy. One day, all of them were missing. One managed to escape the labor camps. The other two were never to be seen again.

Tens of thousands in china that practice a form of meditation called falun-gong are also captured and tortured.
http://chinaview.wordpress.com...torture-methods-photo/

China is the only superpower now that still carries these barbaric human rights policies.

I agree, but I'd rather concentrate on my country's shitty abuses of freedom before I worry about another country's human rights policies.

Here's a hint: As an American citizen, I have more influence on the policies of one country than the other. Can you guess which?

that's besides the point. we're talking about china apologists now, not where we should focus our energies on.
 

StormRider

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2000
8,324
2
0
Originally posted by: BoomerD
For all the Chinese apologists...Are you IN China? Do you LIVE there or are you of Chinese origin?

If you're not currently living IN China, (an emmigrant) why not?
IF China is this great country, why do so many people leave to come to the USA? Why do so many Chinese people do anything they can, including being smuggled into the country in sealed shipping containers, just to get OUT of China?

I'm old school, from the age of "Kill a commie for your mommie," or "Better dead than red," so I have a "built-in" dislike or possibly even hatred for anything Communist. I don't dislike or hate the Chinese people, because IMO, they're just people, the same as anyone else, trying to get through life one day at a time...but the Chinese government? Fuck them.

I'm Chinese American. My family has visited China last year (I declined because I have some bitterness about how I felt I was raised -- why explore my past roots when I don't see a real future for me?). From their description, much has changed over there. Many cities of China look like any other modern city in the world. For the most part, if you aren't political, then it's pretty much like living anywhere else in the western world:

You go to school. You have friends and family. You have crushes on girls. You go shopping. You get a job. You watch TV and go on the (censored to pron and anything negative about the government) internet. You play video games. You fall in love and marry. You have children. You have hopes and dreams for a better life. It's not like they are all cowering under their beds, working as slaves with guns to their heads and hoping someday that someone will rescue them.

Why do Chinese people want to emigrate to the US? Cause we're still the best country in the world. :) Same reason why people from Canada emigrate to here. It doesn't mean that Canada is a cesspool and it doesn't mean that China is a cesspool.

China has improved greatly in the last 30 years -- so much so that many parts are almost unrecognizable to my parents when they returned there to visit.

As for the commie part -- We won and they lost. The Communist ideology is pretty much dead over there. The Communist government there is in name only. China is more capitalist than most countries now. There is still much to improve upon over there with regards to human rights and freedoms but it's not like in North Korea where their people are starving and think their leader is a god. In China, there can be some criticism of the government (for example, there has been criticism of building standards and corruption from the last earthquake). In China, there is more freedom to visit other countries. I've met plenty of graduate students from China but have never seen a North Korean graduate student. The fact that China allows it's people to visit other countries is proof that there is more personal freedom now in China. And even though the internet is censored I'm pretty sure that most Chinese are aware of the protests that have occurred during the run-up to the Olympics.

My hope is that China can be an example of a stable transition from a communist government into a free democracy as the old leadership is replaced by younger western-educated members.

Sometimes it seems that many in the US won't be happy unless we bomb a country to ruins (destroying their sewage, electrical and water systems), replace their government, standby as an insurgency blows up and beheads innocent people, and say, "Enjoy your new found democracy and freedoms!".
 

hunewbie

Member
Sep 18, 2007
151
0
0
Originally posted by: Turin39789
Originally posted by: hunewbie
Originally posted by: FlashG
Originally posted by: hunewbie
Originally posted by: FlashG
Originally posted by: Sawyer
Every single board I have been on where there is a topic about china and the Olympics, there are always China apologists, I do not get this. How can any sane person defend or support China?
Apologists = Posters on the Chinese dime - anti American haters - asshole debaters - misguided patriots ? students with no life.

At least we have some semblance of a freedom of speech. Even for those previously mentioned.

Freedom of Speech --- But still, think before you speak and not be an ass about it...i dont mind the bashing of the government...just not the bashing of it's people who had done nothing wrong...
hunewbie, I wasn't bashing the PEOPLE but you knew that.


i knew that. refering to the masses...

WTF? The masses don't bash the people either, they bash the government of china, the people in charge, the corruption the pollution, etc.

Well, it sounds like they are...doesn't it?



Originally posted by: StormRider
My hope is that China can be an example of a stable transition from a communist government into a free democracy as the old leadership is replaced by younger western-educated members.

Sometimes it seems that many in the US won't be happy unless we bomb a country to ruins (destroying their sewage, electrical and water systems), replace their government, standby as an insurgency blows up and beheads innocent people, and say, "Enjoy your new found democracy and freedoms!".

nicely put StormRider. =)
New Hopes. A better tomorrow...
 

amoeba

Diamond Member
Aug 7, 2003
3,162
1
0
for a country of 1.3 billion people, a quick and immediate transition from totalitarian government to a democracy will result in utter chaos especially given the wide disparity in economic conditions in China.

As regards to Tibet, after talking to Chinese people, as a US citizen, I really can't criticize the Chinese government with regards to Tibet with a straight face anymore. Considering that the US invaded a country half way across the world and continues to occupy it. "But we brought them democracy and out of tyranny" you'll say. True. However, did you know that Tibet actively participated in slave trade prior to Chinese occupation and that he form of government was feudal prior to Chinese occupation? The GDP of the Tibetan region has grown exponentially since Chinese occupation. Are the Chinese denying certain Tibetans from establishing a government that they want? certainly. make no mistake, not all Tibetans want to secede from China. Are the Chinese doing this mainly because the region is resource rich? of course. Is it any different than what the US is doing in Iraq? not really. At least the Tibetan region is on the Chinese border and not halfway around the world.

The Chinese are reacting to Tibet the way any government would if part of their country tried to secede. Uk and North Ireland, Uk and the Falklands, Basque separatists, we had a whole civil war for Christ sakes.




 

StormRider

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2000
8,324
2
0
Originally posted by: amoeba
for a country of 1.3 billion people, a quick and immediate transition from totalitarian government to a democracy will result in utter chaos especially given the wide disparity in economic conditions in China.

As regards to Tibet, after talking to Chinese people, as a US citizen, I really can't criticize the Chinese government with regards to Tibet with a straight face anymore. Considering that the US invaded a country half way across the world and continues to occupy it. "But we brought them democracy and out of tyranny" you'll say. True. However, did you know that Tibet actively participated in slave trade prior to Chinese occupation and that he form of government was feudal prior to Chinese occupation? The GDP of the Tibetan region has grown exponentially since Chinese occupation. Are the Chinese denying certain Tibetans from establishing a government that they want? certainly. make no mistake, not all Tibetans want to secede from China. Are the Chinese doing this mainly because the region is resource rich? of course. Is it any different than what the US is doing in Iraq? not really. At least the Tibetan region is on the Chinese border and not halfway around the world.

The Chinese are reacting to Tibet the way any government would if part of their country tried to secede. Uk and North Ireland, Uk and the Falklands, Basque separatists, we had a whole civil war for Christ sakes.

Here's a good link describing what Tibet was like in the past. It's kind of surprising because I imagined Buddhism being somehow more peaceful and less corruptible compared to the other religions. But it now seems no different.

To me the real situation in Tibet is more complex. But most protesters only see and hear what celebrities like Richard Gere says and don't follow up with more research on the matter.


 

FlashG

Platinum Member
Dec 23, 1999
2,712
2
0
This thread is going places but i'm learning a lot so I don't mind so much.
 

maddogchen

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2004
8,905
2
76
Originally posted by: StormRider
Originally posted by: amoeba
for a country of 1.3 billion people, a quick and immediate transition from totalitarian government to a democracy will result in utter chaos especially given the wide disparity in economic conditions in China.

As regards to Tibet, after talking to Chinese people, as a US citizen, I really can't criticize the Chinese government with regards to Tibet with a straight face anymore. Considering that the US invaded a country half way across the world and continues to occupy it. "But we brought them democracy and out of tyranny" you'll say. True. However, did you know that Tibet actively participated in slave trade prior to Chinese occupation and that he form of government was feudal prior to Chinese occupation? The GDP of the Tibetan region has grown exponentially since Chinese occupation. Are the Chinese denying certain Tibetans from establishing a government that they want? certainly. make no mistake, not all Tibetans want to secede from China. Are the Chinese doing this mainly because the region is resource rich? of course. Is it any different than what the US is doing in Iraq? not really. At least the Tibetan region is on the Chinese border and not halfway around the world.

The Chinese are reacting to Tibet the way any government would if part of their country tried to secede. Uk and North Ireland, Uk and the Falklands, Basque separatists, we had a whole civil war for Christ sakes.

Here's a good link describing what Tibet was like in the past. It's kind of surprising because I imagined Buddhism being somehow more peaceful and less corruptible compared to the other religions. But it now seems no different.

To me the real situation in Tibet is more complex. But most protesters only see and hear what celebrities like Richard Gere says and don't follow up with more research on the matter.

it doesn't help with videos of Chinese soldiers shooting fleeing Tibetan refugees
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