China apologists

[StormRider]

Originally posted by: maddogchen

Originally posted by: StormRider

Originally posted by: amoeba
for a country of 1.3 billion people, a quick and immediate transition from totalitarian government to a democracy will result in utter chaos especially given the wide disparity in economic conditions in China.

As regards to Tibet, after talking to Chinese people, as a US citizen, I really can't criticize the Chinese government with regards to Tibet with a straight face anymore. Considering that the US invaded a country half way across the world and continues to occupy it. "But we brought them democracy and out of tyranny" you'll say. True. However, did you know that Tibet actively participated in slave trade prior to Chinese occupation and that he form of government was feudal prior to Chinese occupation? The GDP of the Tibetan region has grown exponentially since Chinese occupation. Are the Chinese denying certain Tibetans from establishing a government that they want? certainly. make no mistake, not all Tibetans want to secede from China. Are the Chinese doing this mainly because the region is resource rich? of course. Is it any different than what the US is doing in Iraq? not really. At least the Tibetan region is on the Chinese border and not halfway around the world.

The Chinese are reacting to Tibet the way any government would if part of their country tried to secede. Uk and North Ireland, Uk and the Falklands, Basque separatists, we had a whole civil war for Christ sakes.

Here's a good link describing what Tibet was like in the past. It's kind of surprising because I imagined Buddhism being somehow more peaceful and less corruptible compared to the other religions. But it now seems no different.

To me the real situation in Tibet is more complex. But most protesters only see and hear what celebrities like Richard Gere says and don't follow up with more research on the matter.

it doesn't help with videos of Chinese soldiers shooting fleeing Tibetan refugees
Text

I'm only trying to say the situation is a bit more complex than what is usually presented by the media or protesters.

Someone can post similar videos from our history (Wacco, race riots, Rodney King etc) and make us seem worse than we really are.

 

[maddogchen]

Originally posted by: Turin39789

Originally posted by: hunewbie

Originally posted by: FlashG

Originally posted by: hunewbie

Originally posted by: FlashG

Originally posted by: Sawyer
Every single board I have been on where there is a topic about china and the Olympics, there are always China apologists, I do not get this. How can any sane person defend or support China?

Apologists = Posters on the Chinese dime - anti American haters - asshole debaters - misguided patriots ? students with no life.

At least we have some semblance of a freedom of speech. Even for those previously mentioned.

Freedom of Speech --- But still, think before you speak and not be an ass about it...i dont mind the bashing of the government...just not the bashing of it's people who had done nothing wrong...

hunewbie, I wasn't bashing the PEOPLE but you knew that.

i knew that. refering to the masses...

WTF? The masses don't bash the people either, they bash the government of china, the people in charge, the corruption the pollution, etc.

i see that alot in reading forums and dealing with Chinese. They seem to take any negativity to China as an affront to themselves. Ask elfenix about his chat with a girl from Shanghai who felt insulted and tore into him when he mentioned that China can't keep up its double digit growth forever. I guess its what rampant nationalism does to people

 

[StormRider]

Originally posted by: maddogchen

Originally posted by: Turin39789

Originally posted by: hunewbie

Originally posted by: FlashG

Originally posted by: hunewbie

Originally posted by: FlashG

Originally posted by: Sawyer
Every single board I have been on where there is a topic about china and the Olympics, there are always China apologists, I do not get this. How can any sane person defend or support China?

Apologists = Posters on the Chinese dime - anti American haters - asshole debaters - misguided patriots ? students with no life.

At least we have some semblance of a freedom of speech. Even for those previously mentioned.

Freedom of Speech --- But still, think before you speak and not be an ass about it...i dont mind the bashing of the government...just not the bashing of it's people who had done nothing wrong...

hunewbie, I wasn't bashing the PEOPLE but you knew that.

i knew that. refering to the masses...

WTF? The masses don't bash the people either, they bash the government of china, the people in charge, the corruption the pollution, etc.

i see that alot in reading forums and dealing with Chinese. They seem to take any negativity to China as an affront to themselves. Ask elfenix about his chat with a girl from Shanghai who felt insulted and tore into him when he mentioned that China can't keep up its double digit growth forever. I guess its what rampant nationalism does to people

Just out of curosity, are you Chinese American too?

 

[maddogchen]

Originally posted by: StormRider


I'm only trying to say the situation is a bit more complex than what is usually presented by the media or protesters.

Someone can post similar videos from our history (Wacco, race riots, Rodney King etc) and make us seem worse than we really are.

speaking of our history, what do you think of how I describe the Tibet thing to other Americans?

I say that the situation in Tibet is a lot like our history with Native Americans. We took over, offered them a better lifestyle, ripped apart their culture and religions, educated them in English to be Americans, and said they are better off than they were before. But never once did we asked them if that is what they wanted.

 

[maddogchen]

Originally posted by: StormRider

Just out of curosity, are you Chinese American too?

Yes. Just a summary of my background. My parents are from Taiwan. Growing up I've never was taught the affection for China or Taiwan like I see in my friends. They would cheer for China in olympics or in case of Taiwan in baseball. And my parents didn't take me to Taiwan independence rallies like some of my friends did, or camps. It was confusing listening to them say they were Taiwanese instead of Chinese until I educated myself on what the hell they were talking about.

But I have been to both Taiwan and China. Taiwan to visit relatives. China for work. I spent 3 months there in 2005 in the Jinan province as a consultant. It was interesting since the part of the province I was in was not as developed. There was trash everywhere. A kid dropped his pants and pooped on the sidewalk at an intersection while his father told him to hurry because the light was changing. Also I had difficulty speaking with some of the locals there in mandarin because of their accents and the fact that many just did not speak mandarin that well. They favored their local dialect. But luckily the people I worked with read english well so I would write down words like transistor or ohms. Words they never taught us in Chinese school.

 

[sunzt]

Originally posted by: maddogchen

Originally posted by: StormRider


I'm only trying to say the situation is a bit more complex than what is usually presented by the media or protesters.

Someone can post similar videos from our history (Wacco, race riots, Rodney King etc) and make us seem worse than we really are.

speaking of our history, what do you think of how I describe the Tibet thing to other Americans?

I say that the situation in Tibet is a lot like our history with Native Americans. We took over, offered them a better lifestyle, ripped apart their culture and religions, educated them in English to be Americans, and said they are better off than they were before. But never once did we asked them if that is what they wanted.

One big difference between Native Americans and Tibet. The Chinese did not commit genocide and didn't force anyone, but the llama and his aristocracy to leave. Even then the llama could have stayed if he would give up his feudal slave society.

 

[StormRider]

Originally posted by: maddogchen

Originally posted by: StormRider


I'm only trying to say the situation is a bit more complex than what is usually presented by the media or protesters.

Someone can post similar videos from our history (Wacco, race riots, Rodney King etc) and make us seem worse than we really are.

speaking of our history, what do you think of how I describe the Tibet thing to other Americans?

I say that the situation in Tibet is a lot like our history with Native Americans. We took over, offered them a better lifestyle, ripped apart their culture and religions, educated them in English to be Americans, and said they are better off than they were before. But never once did we asked them if that is what they wanted.

One major difference is that Europeans traveled halfway around the world to take over this land and the Native Americans. Everything between the two cultures were completely different.

Tibet is at China's borders. It's in their neighborhood. Throughout history there has been mixing and interaction between Tibet and China. Even though the culture is different, there were also similarities. Tibetans kind of look Chinese to me. Buddhism is a religion that was also common in China. So, they shared racial and religious similarities.

To me it's more akin to one Native American tribe conquering and taking over another. Most countries seem to have regions in their borders that contain separatist movements. China has Tibet and the Uighur. Iran, Turkey, and Iraq have their Kurdish regions. Spain has the Basque separatists. Thailand and the Philippines have a restive Muslim region. Pakistan has that autonomous lawless region bordering Afghanistan. To me these are more of an internal issue since it is in their neighborhood.

Tibet practiced a feudal form of government where most of the wealth was concentrated at the top with slaves working the land. In most of these types of systems, I am sure there must exist some Tibetans that prefer Chinese rule over the old system as described below.

As in a free labor system and unlike slavery, the overlords had no responsibility for the serf?s maintenance and no direct interest in his or her survival as an expensive piece of property. The serfs had to support themselves. Yet as in a slave system, they were bound to their masters, guaranteeing a fixed and permanent workforce that could neither organize nor strike nor freely depart as might laborers in a market context. The overlords had the best of both worlds.

One 22-year old woman, herself a runaway serf, reports: ?Pretty serf girls were usually taken by the owner as house servants and used as he wished?; they ?were just slaves without rights.?18 Serfs needed permission to go anywhere. Landowners had legal authority to capture those who tried to flee. One 24-year old runaway welcomed the Chinese intervention as a ?liberation.? He testified that under serfdom he was subjected to incessant toil, hunger, and cold. After his third failed escape, he was merciless beaten by the landlord?s men until blood poured from his nose and mouth. They then poured alcohol and caustic soda on his wounds to increase the pain, he claimed.19

The serfs were taxed upon getting married, taxed for the birth of each child and for every death in the family. They were taxed for planting a tree in their yard and for keeping animals. They were taxed for religious festivals and for public dancing and drumming, for being sent to prison and upon being released. Those who could not find work were taxed for being unemployed, and if they traveled to another village in search of work, they paid a passage tax. When people could not pay, the monasteries lent them money at 20 to 50 percent interest. Some debts were handed down from father to son to grandson. Debtors who could not meet their obligations risked being cast into slavery.20

The theocracy?s religious teachings buttressed its class order. The poor and afflicted were taught that they had brought their troubles upon themselves because of their wicked ways in previous lives. Hence they had to accept the misery of their present existence as a karmic atonement and in anticipation that their lot would improve in their next lifetime. The rich and powerful treated their good fortune as a reward for, and tangible evidence of, virtue in past and present lives.

 

[StormRider]

Originally posted by: maddogchen

Originally posted by: StormRider

Just out of curosity, are you Chinese American too?

Yes. Just a summary of my background. My parents are from Taiwan. Growing up I've never was taught the affection for China or Taiwan like I see in my friends. They would cheer for China in olympics or in case of Taiwan in baseball. And my parents didn't take me to Taiwan independence rallies like some of my friends did, or camps. It was confusing listening to them say they were Taiwanese instead of Chinese until I educated myself on what the hell they were talking about.

But I have been to both Taiwan and China. Taiwan to visit relatives. China for work. I spent 3 months there in 2005 in the Jinan province as a consultant. It was interesting since the part of the province I was in was not as developed. There was trash everywhere. A kid dropped his pants and pooped on the sidewalk at an intersection while his father told him to hurry because the light was changing. Also I had difficulty speaking with some of the locals there in mandarin because of their accents and the fact that many just did not speak mandarin that well. They favored their local dialect. But luckily the people I worked with read english well so I would write down words like transistor or ohms. Words they never taught us in Chinese school.

Cool. Thanks. I was just curious -- sometimes it helps me understand the other person better if I know a little bit about their background.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: FlashG
This thread is going places but i'm learning a lot so I don't mind so much.

1.3 billion people and kicking the U.S.'s ass

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: FlashG

Originally posted by: hunewbie

Originally posted by: FlashG

Originally posted by: hunewbie

Originally posted by: FlashG

Originally posted by: Sawyer
Every single board I have been on where there is a topic about china and the Olympics, there are always China apologists, I do not get this. How can any sane person defend or support China?

Apologists = Posters on the Chinese dime - anti American haters - asshole debaters - misguided patriots ? students with no life.

At least we have some semblance of a freedom of speech. Even for those previously mentioned.

Freedom of Speech --- But still, think before you speak and not be an ass about it...i dont mind the bashing of the government...just not the bashing of it's people who had done nothing wrong...

hunewbie, I wasn't bashing the PEOPLE but you knew that.

i knew that. refering to the masses...

The thread is about the government OK? IMHO the Chinese government is FUBAR'd.

Well, that's the problem. The OP didn't mention one world about Chinese government. He said China apologist, and not Chinese gov. apologist. That's confuses people and make you think he was bashing Chinese in general. Many threads made the same mistake, that's why there is bunch of people defending Chinese/China in general.

I agree Chinese government is F'ed up, but let's make it clear we are bashing the government and not the people alrite?

 

[Throckmorton]

Originally posted by: sdifox

Originally posted by: fishjie

Originally posted by: Sawyer
Every single board I have been on where there is a topic about china and the Olympics, there are always China apologists, I do not get this. How can any sane person defend or support China?

im chinese

sovereign china 4 lyfe

tibet is ours

deal with it

where are you posting from? I can't remember a time when China is not Sovereign. Unless you want to count the dinasties Qing and Yuen as non-chinese.

I really don't get the "Tibet is ours attitude". They showed some Chinese young women on TV the other day smiling and saying "Tibet, we will never let you go!"

It's like they lack the ability to understand anything beyond "mine" and "yours"

 

[FlashG]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: FlashG
This thread is going places but i'm learning a lot so I don't mind so much.

1.3 billion people and kicking the U.S.'s ass

No contest. It's a battle of the greediest bastards on the planet.