Chicago police shooting incident video released

[ivwshane]

If this is what we're going to deem acceptable from our LEO's, we may as well dispense with the pleasantries of voice commands and just shoot first. Why bother saying things like "stop" "put your hands up" when it doesn't matter anyways.

You might as well get rid of the police and just have vigilante justice as the expectations would be just as low.

Apparently the difference between a cop and any person off the street is that a cop carries a badge. Apparently the actions of a cop should match how any person would act, despite the obvious difference of a cop actually gets training.

Ridiculously low bar is ridiculous.

 

[emperus]

Step 6 is based personality profiles, training, and consequences.

Life's not fair, the kid did what the cop said, got killed anyways.

You're literally comparing an adult with extensive training and responsibilities to a barely teen with no training.

Maybe the kiddo missed the "how to put your hands up" seminar.

Life is not fair. The kid made a mistake, but I wouldn't put it on the officer. The problem is this situation is not normal. There are too many fking guns in the US. The asshole who gave him the gun to run away at 2:30 am should face manslaughter or murder charges.

 

[ivwshane]

If I remember correctly, they knew he had the gun because someone else who that had in custody for the shooting had given to him. If someone has the temerity to shoot a gun in a neighborhood, I want the police to apprehend them. As I said, we can argue how to apprehend them, but he/she needs to be apprehended. It's not about guilt or not decision, but a matter of getting them off the streets. And you still didn't answer what you would do at Step 6.

I have no problem with the pursuit, its the judgement and execution I have a problem with.

As far as number 6? I'd probably double the time it took to kill the kid after he turned around, to see if the suspect was now a threat.

I know, I know, .04 seconds is plenty of time to lower your raised hands, aim into a strobe light and recognize the target and to shoot. Because, apparently, that sort of thing is a piece of cake according to some here.

But god forbid we expect a trained officer to be able to recognize a threat first before shooting!

 

[ch33zw1z]

Life is not fair. The kid made a mistake, but I wouldn't put it on the officer. The problem is this situation is not normal. There are too many fking guns in the US. The asshole who gave him the gun to run away at 2:30 am should face manslaughter or murder charges.

The officer pulled the trigger. Every single gun wielding person is responsible for rounds discharged from guns in their control.

 

[ivwshane]

Life is not fair. The kid made a mistake, but I wouldn't put it on the officer. The problem is this situation is not normal. There are too many fking guns in the US. The asshole who gave him the gun to run away at 2:30 am should face manslaughter or murder charges.

No we get it, you've lowered your expectations so low because there are lots of guns out there. You completely ignore the fact that violent crime has continued to be at record lows. Despite the fact police kill way more people in this country than in any other industrialized nation.

 

[rommelrommel]

Oh so you have experience shooting a gun under stressful conditions when your adrenaline is pumping and your back is toward the target, at night, with a strobe in your face? That’s no big deal to you right? And how long have you been training or using a gun?

 

[ivwshane]

View attachment 43331

Oh I see, you are going to be one of those posters that takes multiple posts and multiple requests to answer a basic question.

 

[rommelrommel]

Oh I see, you are going to be one of those posters that takes multiple posts and multiple requests to answer a basic question.

Why bother? You’re as dense as refined uranium.

 

[BUTCH1]

If this is what we're going to deem acceptable from our LEO's, we may as well dispense with the pleasantries of voice commands and just shoot first. Why bother saying things like "stop" "put your hands up" when it doesn't matter anyways.

But your skipping over an important point, the youth DID have an opportunity to drop the gun early on and chose to keep running and ultimately try and hide the weapon. Usually I don't side with the cops on these matters but in this case the cop was put into a bad situation, he knows the youth is armed, he refuses to drop the gun so the cop now would know he's not facing getting shot at and turns quickly after his hands are hidden and raises them. No, not a "good shoot" but an accident I feel the cop does not deserve much blame for either.

 

[ivwshane]

Why bother? You’re as dense as refined uranium.

Lol! That's what I thought. You are my bitch now.

 

[ivwshane]

But your skipping over an important point, the youth DID have an opportunity to drop the gun early on and chose to keep running and ultimately try and hide the weapon. Usually I don't side with the cops on these matters but in this case the cop was put into a bad situation, he knows the youth is armed, he refuses to drop the gun so the cop now would know he's not facing getting shot at and turns quickly after his hands are hidden and raises them. No, not a "good shoot" but an accident I feel the cop does not deserve much blame for either.

How often do you raise your hands when you shoot?

 

[ch33zw1z]

But your skipping over an important point, the youth DID have an opportunity to drop the gun early on and chose to keep running and ultimately try and hide the weapon. Usually I don't side with the cops on these matters but in this case the cop was put into a bad situation, he knows the youth is armed, he refuses to drop the gun so the cop now would know he's not facing getting shot at and turns quickly after his hands are hidden and raises them. No, not a "good shoot" but an accident I feel the cop does not deserve much blame for either.

Again, why bother even using words, they clearly didn't make a difference.

The cop had already made up his mind by the time he reached the kid

 

[BUTCH1]

How often do you raise your hands when you shoot?

All the cop saw at that time was a fleeing armed suspect who had hidden his hands and now was rapidly turning around to face him having ignored the shout to stop. If the kid had tossed the gun off to one side and actually stopped and hit the deck when he was told to he would be alive today. Chicago is a city with a huge gun violence problem and this incident ended tragically.

 

[ivwshane]

All the cop saw at that time was a fleeing armed suspect who had hidden his hands and now was rapidly turning around to face him having ignored the shout to stop. If the kid had tossed the gun off to one side and actually stopped and hit the deck when he was told to he would be alive today. Chicago is a city with a huge gun violence problem and this incident ended tragically.

So there was no way for the cop to maintain his tactical advantage if he waited for another .2 seconds?

 

[rommelrommel]

Lol! That's what I thought. You are my bitch now.

 

[ivwshane]

View attachment 43332

Cool. Your gifs are as weak as your argument.

Try again bitch.

 

[railer]

Why? The footage says it all --- the boys hands where raised and empty when shot. The cop murdered the boy!

He looked white. He looked white to the cop too. And the only reason this thread exists is because the media made it a point to identify him as Latino.

I will guarantee this:
If this was a 25 year old white guy in a maga hat that got rightfully shot dead, the same bunch that are crying about the dead gangbanger would be laughing about the dead idiot trumper.
You guys are too focused on skin tone. it overshadows every thought you have and prevents you from thinking critically and logically.
I don't even hold it against you. Instead of studying math, chemistry and physics in college, like I did, most of you were pursing liberal arts degrees.
You never learned the skillset of logical thinking.
My opinion doesn't change based on race, religion, age, gender etc.
If this guy happened to be a trumper, to me he'd be just another worthless dipshit who got himself deservedly shot.
And that's the level of critical thinking that you all should aspire to.
Good luck.

 

[NWRMidnight]

He didn't make an error in judgement. You're analyzing the judgement based on the aftermath. I'm analyzing his judgement based on what he knew before he made that shot.
1.) Shots fired
2.) Someone with a gun running from you
3.) You chase the person into an alley
4.) The person stops partially obstructed by a fence with his back to you and you can't tell what he's doing and where the gun is.
5.) He starts turning around toward you.
6.) ......

Now you tell me what you would have done at 6.

1) Shots fired minutes before the cops arrived, and not by the 13 year old, but by the adult he was with
2) Did the cop know he had a gun? He seemed to know he had something in his hands, but there is no indication that he knew for sure it was a gun. He didn't seem to know his hands where empty when he shot him, so how sure are you that he knew what he had in his hand prior?
3) What relevance is chasing him into an alley vs the street?
4) You need to go watch the police cam video again, you can tell vividly that he tossed something before he turned around.
5) He did exactly what the cop told him to do.. Cop said "hands, show me your fucking hands", followed immediately by "drop it" when the teen had his back to the cop, in which the kid complied and did as directed: he tossed the gun and turned around with his hands raised and the cop shot him.
6) I wouldn't have shot him, as I know how to read body language and knew he tossed what ever was in his hands, before he started to turn around. Even if I didn't know how to read body language, I sure as fuck wouldn't have shot him knowing there is no way in hell he could shoot me with his hands up.. it's physically impossible.

 

[ivwshane]

He looked white. He looked white to the cop too. And the only reason this thread exists is because the media made it a point to identify him as Latino.

I will guarantee this:
If this was a 25 year old white guy in a maga hat that got rightfully shot dead, the same bunch that are crying about the dead gangbanger would be laughing about the dead idiot trumper.
You guys are too focused on skin tone. it overshadows every thought you have and prevents you from thinking critically and logically.
I don't even hold it against you. Instead of studying math, chemistry and physics in college, like I did, most of you were pursing liberal arts degrees.
You never learned the skillset of logical thinking.
My opinion doesn't change based on race, religion, age, gender etc.
If this guy happened to be a trumper, to me he'd be just another worthless dipshit who got himself deservedly shot.
And that's the level of critical thinking that you all should aspire to.
Good luck.

How many people have brought up race while complaining about this shooting?

 

[JEDIYoda]

He didn't make an error in judgement. You're analyzing the judgement based on the aftermath. I'm analyzing his judgement based on what he knew before he made that shot.
1.) Shots fired
2.) Someone with a gun running from you
3.) You chase the person into an alley
4.) The person stops partially obstructed by a fence with his back to you and you can't tell what he's doing and where the gun is.
5.) He starts turning around toward you.
6.) ......

Now you tell me what you would have done at 6.

you cannot go by what he knew before that.........what he knew before that could get anybody killed.......what his eyes saw was a kid with his hands up and no gun...please stop being obtuse!

 

[JEDIYoda]

He looked white. He looked white to the cop too. And the only reason this thread exists is because the media made it a point to identify him as Latino.

I will guarantee this:
If this was a 25 year old white guy in a maga hat that got rightfully shot dead, the same bunch that are crying about the dead gangbanger would be laughing about the dead idiot trumper. --- nope hardly that`s not true at all!

You guys are too focused on skin tone. it overshadows every thought you have and prevents you from thinking critically and logically. -- Nope!! You are to focused with back the blue, even when the cop saw no gun in the kids hand...

I don't even hold it against you. Instead of studying math, chemistry and physics in college, like I did, most of you were pursing liberal arts degrees.
You never learned the skillset of logical thinking. --- actually we did! But we are NOT sheep who believe that the police can do no wrong!!

My opinion doesn't change based on race, religion, age, gender etc. -- who vares about your opinion?? it is plain wrong!
If this guy happened to be a trumper, to me he'd be just another worthless dipshit who got himself deservedly shot.
And that's the level of critical thinking that you all should aspire to.
Good luck. ---- We aspire to be northing like your ilk.,...

So based on what the cop knew....the cop actually had his facts wrong and soembody being shot because the cops had incomplete facts....makes killing the kid OK!! I get it....hahahaha you and your critical thinking.....

 

[NWRMidnight]

All the cop saw at that time was a fleeing armed suspect who had hidden his hands and now was rapidly turning around to face him having ignored the shout to stop. If the kid had tossed the gun off to one side and actually stopped and hit the deck when he was told to he would be alive today. Chicago is a city with a huge gun violence problem and this incident ended tragically.

Get your fact straight Butch! Context is important. He stopped running 2 to 3 seconds after the cop told him to stop, where there was an opening in the fence, and walked 5 feet where he tossed the gun a split second after the cop told him to show his hands and drop it, then he turned around with his hands raised and was shot.. for complying.. not once was he a threat to that cop.

You make it sound like he rapidly turned around out of the blue and did it while running, and are completely ignoring that the cop told him to do exactly what he did. But hey.. keep on blaming the dead and not the piss poor actions of the police.. Lets not forget about the strobe light that he cop also wasn't using properly and most likely had zero training to use.

 

[woolfe9998]

That is not an unreasonable thing to advocate. Basically, right now cops don't have to be right when they kill someone. They only have to suspect something to be justified in ending a life. Over decades, that has created this mess of a situation where they shoot first and ask questions later particularly with blacks and latinos. Maybe if for some time we changed things where cops are judged by being right (ie if you suspected something, killed someone and was wrong, the cop gets punished hard), we'd see different policing practices. If you don't want cops to shoot in a cavalier fashion, change the incentives. Right now the incentive is to shoot.

I'll make my one comment here in response to this particular remark.

As clarification, ordinary citizens don't "have to be right" either when they use force to defend themselves.

The law of self-defense which applies to ordinary citizens also applies to police. Some people get confused when they talk about police being "privileged to use force" under certain circumstances. However, that refers to non-lethal uses of force, like restraining someone during an arrest, which would be assault and/or false imprisonment if done by one citizen toward another. This may become relevant, as it is in the Chauvin trial, when an unintended death occurs.

For deadly force, however, the privilege exists only where it would also exist for a citizen. It is the law of self-defense. There are no special legal rules for police.

The law of self-defense is this: You can use deadly force if you have a reasonable belief in an imminent threat of deadly force from the victim.

Reasonableness is not judged by hindsight. That is why it says "reasonable" and not "correct."

I will not attempt to apply this law to the facts of this particular case. I only wanted to intervene because practically no one seems to understand that the law in this area is the same for cops as citizens, and it's actually pretty simple what that law is.

I've also noticed one or more people suggesting that police should not be able to shoot in situations where an ordinary citizen would likely be allowed to under the law.

 

[Sunburn74]

Bullshit, you know DAMM WELL why he didn't drop it as he ran, he was trying to avoid a charge by tossing it behind that fence, bad idea with a tragic ending.

Look no one is saying that crimes should go unpunished. However, committing a crime doesn't mean you should be executed in the street by a police officer. There's a reason we have laws, trials, juries, etc. When cops gun people down like this its not justice. Its vigilantism.

 

[emperus]

you cannot go by what he knew before that.........what he knew before that could get anybody killed.......what his eyes saw was a kid with his hands up and no gun...please stop being obtuse!

Listen, I've had cops pull guns on me at least 3 times when I was under 25. Once, the cop was jumpy and I thought he was going to shoot me for sure (someone shot in a movie theater and my friends and I happened to be the closest black guys around). I'm not a fan of current policing. And my black skin makes it worse. So, stop with the obtuse stuff.

I think this is one of those situations where it's not cut and dry. The cop could have already decided to shoot him, could have been biased, but what surrounded what happened in that video, makes it a 50-50 situation which you have to give the benefit of the doubt to the cop.