Cheney's company turning huge profits on Army contracts

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DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
Originally posted by: Corn
However, you would think, in order to avoid any appearances of conflicts, why not just suspend his interests in Halliburton until after his tenure as VP is over?

What practical diffrence would it make, really? This is money he is *owed*, not earning. You would simply have the same argument if he were to "suspend" (assuming it would even be legal to suspend this deferred comp--the IRS might not allow these payments to be suspended if they were structured to defer the payroll taxes until the wages were claimed by Cheney) his owed wages. As stated earlier, he's gonna get this money anyway, so you tell me, what is the practical difference between receiving it now as opposed to 6 years from now?

Because, from the outside, it appears to be yet another revolving door between the Bush/Cheney whitehouse and big business. Cheney uses his government position to boost Halliburton's bottom line when Cheney is in office, when he's not he's actually working directly for the company.

In the early 90s, Halliburton was awarded the job to study and then implement privatization of routine army functions under Cheney, then secretary of defense. After quitting his Pentagon post, he went to work for Halliburton, increasing their government business until 2000 when Cheney took a multi-million $ golden parachute with him after being elected VP. If he's not on the ticket for 2004 (not likely) I have no doubt he'll return to working for Halliburton.

The entanglement is readily apparant. Having Cheney on both the governments payroll and a private-sector company that relies on government contracts seems wrong to me. Does it not seem wrong to you?
 

rahvin

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,475
1
0
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: Corn
However, you would think, in order to avoid any appearances of conflicts, why not just suspend his interests in Halliburton until after his tenure as VP is over?

What practical diffrence would it make, really? This is money he is *owed*, not earning. You would simply have the same argument if he were to "suspend" (assuming it would even be legal to suspend this deferred comp--the IRS might not allow these payments to be suspended if they were structured to defer the payroll taxes until the wages were claimed by Cheney) his owed wages. As stated earlier, he's gonna get this money anyway, so you tell me, what is the practical difference between receiving it now as opposed to 6 years from now?

Because, from the outside, it appears to be yet another revolving door between the Bush/Cheney whitehouse and big business. Cheney uses his government position to boost Halliburton's bottom line when Cheney is in office, when he's not he's actually working directly for the company.

In the early 90s, Halliburton was awarded the job to study and then implement privatization of routine army functions under Cheney, then secretary of defense. After quitting his Pentagon post, he went to work for Halliburton, increasing their government business until 2000 when Cheney took a multi-million $ golden parachute with him after being elected VP. If he's not on the ticket for 2004 (not likely) I have no doubt he'll return to working for Halliburton.

The entanglement is readily apparant. Having Cheney on both the governments payroll and a private-sector company that relies on government contracts seems wrong to me. Does it not seem wrong to you?

Why should it present a problem if the contract was negotiated before he was VP. He didn't know he was going to be VP of the US when he negotiated that contract with Haliburton so why should it be an issue now? He does nothing to recieve the money and gets it regardless of Haliburtons business. Your assertion that he will work for them after leaving politics is unsubstaniated garbage. Haliburton has a CEO, they are not going to dump their current CEO because Cheney is available again, the premise that they would fire the current CEO to hire him back is just rediculous.
 

Tab

Lifer
Sep 15, 2002
12,145
0
76
Originally posted by: rahvin
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: Corn
However, you would think, in order to avoid any appearances of conflicts, why not just suspend his interests in Halliburton until after his tenure as VP is over?

What practical diffrence would it make, really? This is money he is *owed*, not earning. You would simply have the same argument if he were to "suspend" (assuming it would even be legal to suspend this deferred comp--the IRS might not allow these payments to be suspended if they were structured to defer the payroll taxes until the wages were claimed by Cheney) his owed wages. As stated earlier, he's gonna get this money anyway, so you tell me, what is the practical difference between receiving it now as opposed to 6 years from now?

Because, from the outside, it appears to be yet another revolving door between the Bush/Cheney whitehouse and big business. Cheney uses his government position to boost Halliburton's bottom line when Cheney is in office, when he's not he's actually working directly for the company.

In the early 90s, Halliburton was awarded the job to study and then implement privatization of routine army functions under Cheney, then secretary of defense. After quitting his Pentagon post, he went to work for Halliburton, increasing their government business until 2000 when Cheney took a multi-million $ golden parachute with him after being elected VP. If he's not on the ticket for 2004 (not likely) I have no doubt he'll return to working for Halliburton.

The entanglement is readily apparant. Having Cheney on both the governments payroll and a private-sector company that relies on government contracts seems wrong to me. Does it not seem wrong to you?

Why should it present a problem if the contract was negotiated before he was VP. He didn't know he was going to be VP of the US when he negotiated that contract with Haliburton so why should it be an issue now? He does nothing to recieve the money and gets it regardless of Haliburtons business. Your assertion that he will work for them after leaving politics is unsubstaniated garbage. Haliburton has a CEO, they are not going to dump their current CEO because Cheney is available again, the premise that they would fire the current CEO to hire him back is just rediculous.

Good Point.
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
Originally posted by: Tabb
Originally posted by: rahvin
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: Corn
However, you would think, in order to avoid any appearances of conflicts, why not just suspend his interests in Halliburton until after his tenure as VP is over?

What practical diffrence would it make, really? This is money he is *owed*, not earning. You would simply have the same argument if he were to "suspend" (assuming it would even be legal to suspend this deferred comp--the IRS might not allow these payments to be suspended if they were structured to defer the payroll taxes until the wages were claimed by Cheney) his owed wages. As stated earlier, he's gonna get this money anyway, so you tell me, what is the practical difference between receiving it now as opposed to 6 years from now?

Because, from the outside, it appears to be yet another revolving door between the Bush/Cheney whitehouse and big business. Cheney uses his government position to boost Halliburton's bottom line when Cheney is in office, when he's not he's actually working directly for the company.

In the early 90s, Halliburton was awarded the job to study and then implement privatization of routine army functions under Cheney, then secretary of defense. After quitting his Pentagon post, he went to work for Halliburton, increasing their government business until 2000 when Cheney took a multi-million $ golden parachute with him after being elected VP. If he's not on the ticket for 2004 (not likely) I have no doubt he'll return to working for Halliburton.

The entanglement is readily apparant. Having Cheney on both the governments payroll and a private-sector company that relies on government contracts seems wrong to me. Does it not seem wrong to you?

Why should it present a problem if the contract was negotiated before he was VP. He didn't know he was going to be VP of the US when he negotiated that contract with Haliburton so why should it be an issue now? He does nothing to recieve the money and gets it regardless of Haliburtons business. Your assertion that he will work for them after leaving politics is unsubstaniated garbage. Haliburton has a CEO, they are not going to dump their current CEO because Cheney is available again, the premise that they would fire the current CEO to hire him back is just rediculous.

Good Point.

I think you both are ignoring the influence that money (whether guaranteed or not) as well as company loyalty have on Cheney. He built Halliburton up, he has a stake in their well-being. He's continuing to take money from Halliburton even though he's on the gov't payroll. I can't believe you guys don't see the potential conflicts of interest there. Cheney set Halliburton up with sweet contracts in the early 90s, shifting and privatizing military support ops their way. Then he leaves the Pentagon to go work for them directly. How is it so unlikely that he'd do it again? He's done it once already. In fact, it seems like his MO hasn't really changed at all. A decade later, he's doing the same damn thing.
 

Tab

Lifer
Sep 15, 2002
12,145
0
76
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: Tabb
Originally posted by: rahvin
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: Corn
However, you would think, in order to avoid any appearances of conflicts, why not just suspend his interests in Halliburton until after his tenure as VP is over?

What practical diffrence would it make, really? This is money he is *owed*, not earning. You would simply have the same argument if he were to "suspend" (assuming it would even be legal to suspend this deferred comp--the IRS might not allow these payments to be suspended if they were structured to defer the payroll taxes until the wages were claimed by Cheney) his owed wages. As stated earlier, he's gonna get this money anyway, so you tell me, what is the practical difference between receiving it now as opposed to 6 years from now?

Because, from the outside, it appears to be yet another revolving door between the Bush/Cheney whitehouse and big business. Cheney uses his government position to boost Halliburton's bottom line when Cheney is in office, when he's not he's actually working directly for the company.

In the early 90s, Halliburton was awarded the job to study and then implement privatization of routine army functions under Cheney, then secretary of defense. After quitting his Pentagon post, he went to work for Halliburton, increasing their government business until 2000 when Cheney took a multi-million $ golden parachute with him after being elected VP. If he's not on the ticket for 2004 (not likely) I have no doubt he'll return to working for Halliburton.

The entanglement is readily apparant. Having Cheney on both the governments payroll and a private-sector company that relies on government contracts seems wrong to me. Does it not seem wrong to you?

Why should it present a problem if the contract was negotiated before he was VP. He didn't know he was going to be VP of the US when he negotiated that contract with Haliburton so why should it be an issue now? He does nothing to recieve the money and gets it regardless of Haliburtons business. Your assertion that he will work for them after leaving politics is unsubstaniated garbage. Haliburton has a CEO, they are not going to dump their current CEO because Cheney is available again, the premise that they would fire the current CEO to hire him back is just rediculous.

Good Point.

I think you both are ignoring the influence that money (whether guaranteed or not) as well as company loyalty have on Cheney. He built Halliburton up, he has a stake in their well-being. He's continuing to take money from Halliburton even though he's on the gov't payroll. I can't believe you guys don't see the potential conflicts of interest there. Cheney set Halliburton up with sweet contracts in the early 90s, shifting and privatizing military support ops their way. Then he leaves the Pentagon to go work for them directly. How is it so unlikely that he'd do it again? He's done it once already. In fact, it seems like his MO hasn't really changed at all. A decade later, he's doing the same damn thing.

Your assuming he is going to back to haliburton? Did you even read Rahvin's post? What kind of position would cheny go back to? Someone his age would most likely retire.

Now for the part thats bold. Whats wrong with that? If they do a good job why should I care? Of course you could say its not right. I wouldn't care if it was a different company involved in rebuilding, expect do you know of one that would take up the job and do it for the same price as Hally and good enough?
 

josphII

Banned
Nov 24, 2001
1,490
0
0
Did the US need to invade Iraq?

yes, no question about it

Were there US corporations which stood to profit from the invasion?

couldnt be more irrelevant

The question is not whether Halliburton is qualified to handle the job in Iraq. The question is, how did we get to the point where Halliburton's services were needed?

lets see, a madman with a history of invading his neighbors, MASS MURDER, and seeking more powerful WMD, disregarded UN placed sanctions, which were part of his surrender following the Persian Gulf War (so you could actually argue that he never surrendered). do you not realize that over the course of the past few YEARS the united states gave him plenty of opportunities to comply with the sanctions and showed no interest in using the military? thankfully, and following 9/11, the united states ended this 'grab your ankles' policy and decided if they werent going to abide to UN sanctions and let weapons inspectors in, which according to iraq they had no reason NOT to let them in as they had no WMD, the US would be proactive and end any threat that iraq may pose to the US. all saddam had to do was let the inspectors in and abide by the UN placed sanctions... thats it!

I have one more question for you, dabuddah. Why do you feel it is necessary to equate my questioning the Bush administration on what has proved to be an invasion based on false reasons with hatred?

well because you have no reason to question the bush admin. in the manner in which you do - baseless arguments & wild theories mixed with completely ignoring facts. there is no other conclusion to make other than you simlpy hate bush.
 

Corn

Diamond Member
Nov 12, 1999
6,389
29
91
Because, from the outside, it appears to be yet another revolving door between the Bush/Cheney whitehouse and big business.

What does "from the outside" mean? You mean to the ignorant moron who doesn't understand the concept of deferred comp it might appear to be a revolving door between Bush/Cheney and big business? Well, you'd get no argument from me, but then again, what ignorant morons think is matters little to me, nor to any reasonably learned individual. One thing is for sure though, it certainly does give you something to help aid in the expulsion of some hot gas...........

Having Cheney on both the governments payroll and a private-sector company that relies on government contracts seems wrong to me. Does it not seem wrong to you?

He is not "on the payroll", this implication by you is that he is still under Halliburton's employ, he is not. What is wrong is your consistant misrepresentation of this fact.
 

BOBDN

Banned
May 21, 2002
2,579
0
0
There is a revolving door between business and government. Whether or not Cheney or Bush or Wolfowitz or Perle or Rumsfeld retire after this go around doesn't matter. They keep the wheels turning. They keep the network working. Whether or not they retire at some point is completely irrelevant.

While in the private sector they use insider information they gained while in government. While in government they use their positions to aid the corporations they will one day return to. Someday they will retire. They will be board members or consultants using influence gained over years of government and private sector activities. As in The Carlyle Group. Or any of the myriad ventures they become involved. They are guaranteed success because they are on the gravy train. They can't fail. There is always the government welfare line of corporate contracts they are first in line to get because they have the connections.

"And so it goes, this little thing of ours" to quote a line from the Sopranos. These people run their lives like organized crime.

Let's not forget, people, we're engaged in an occupation right now one of the main results of which is to add to the profits of large corporations members of the current administration are connected with.

And no one has given an adequate reason why we're in Iraq. They've given reasons why we had to attack Iraq right away without UN sanctions (the same UN they are now attempting to get aid from in their mis-adventure) but all of those reasons have proved to be false.

PS

Attacking people who disagree with you doesn't prove your point. I'll continue to refrain from personal attacks but listening to some people on these forums attacking others for their views is really getting tired. AFAIK no one here has any more or less information than anyone else on the synergistic relationship between government and big business. Some people may read more or less than others. People have different viewpoints which color the information they use one way or another. Attacking them, making statements like

What does "from the outside" mean? You mean to the ignorant moron who doesn't understand the concept of deferred comp it might appear to be a revolving door between Bush/Cheney and big business? Well, you'd get no argument from me, but then again, what ignorant morons think is matters little to me, nor to any reasonably learned individual. One thing is for sure though, it certainly does give you something to help aid in the expulsion of some hot gas...........

or

Go away and take your 'cut and paste' nonsense with you...every single thread is the same thing.

or

Although you never know, some people are plain crazy.......hard to tell though who it is that's crazy.....could be Cheney, could be BOBDN. I'm leaning toward BOBDN though, simply because he spends a significant amount of time and effort spewing vitriolic hatred on Bush/Cheney and those who don't follow lockstep into his Bush/Cheney bashing.

...having your brother-in-law sell pardons while playing the back-9?

add nothing to the discussion and are the type of posts that create a need for threads like this one. If you can't refute an opinion attack the source. It's really getting tired people.
 

Insane3D

Elite Member
May 24, 2000
19,446
0
0
Who else would you have recommended?

Well, I think the main problem here is the appearance of favoritism towards Haliburton from the current administration, whether actual or imagined. All of this could have been completely avoided if the administration had simply followed the normal procedures for awarding these sort of contracts. If they had simply allowed the normal bidding process to take place, I doubt this would even be an issue now. However, by simply awarding them these extremely large contracts in a no-bid situation, they opened themselves up for just this sort of problem.

 

BOBDN

Banned
May 21, 2002
2,579
0
0
Originally posted by: josphII

well because you have no reason to question the bush admin. in the manner in which you do - baseless arguments & wild theories mixed with completely ignoring facts. there is no other conclusion to make other than you simlpy hate bush.

I have every reason to attack the actions of the Bush administration. The Bush administration was warned by the UN, their allies and dissenting citizens that there was no reason to invade Iraq while inspections were ongoing but for reasons we can only guess at now (since the reasons Bush gave have all proved to be false) the Bush administration ignored everyone and invaded Iraq anyway. They are now courting the UN and the allies they ignored for help because they cannot handle the situation they created for no apparent reason.

I am a US citizen. A taxpayer. The actions taken by the Bush administration have a direct impact on my life as well as the lives of every other American and the lives of every Iraqi, our allies - the entire planet. So I respectively disagree. I certainly do have a reason to question the Bush administration just as anyone else does.

You have a right to defend them if you choose.

You don't have a right to deny me my rights.

Baseless arguments and wild theories?

Fact: Bush made charges against Iraq which have not been proved even though we now occupy Iraq.

Fact: the invasion of Iraq has cost 280 American live so far, approximately $94 billion, our credibility as a nation around the world as well as our security since we are now engaged in an invasion which has taken the focus from terrorism and placed it on Iraq where no terrorist ties existed. We are now engaged in an invasion and occupation which we cannot afford or handle on our own. So again, I beg to disagree. I have every right to question, criticize and lambast the Bush administration for their illegal, immoral totally irresponsible invasion and occupation of Iraq.

From the NY Times

High Cost of Occupation: U.S. Weighs a U.N. Role
By DOUGLAS JEHL


WASHINGTON, Aug. 28 ? In weighing a greater United Nations hand in the military occupation of Iraq, the Bush administration is acknowledging that the mounting costs of the operation, in both human and financial terms, are too great for the United States alone to bear.

Until now, the "vital role" that President Bush has promised for the United Nations has been limited, by American design, to a marginal contribution. But now the American need for troops and dollars that only other countries can provide is prompting a real reconsideration of those old, narrow lines.

What broader mission might be worked out, including the possible United Nations sponsorship of a multilateral force in Iraq under American command ? the arrangement that the administration has said for the first time it might be willing to accept ? remains to be negotiated. In the Security Council, and in the administration itself, there remain deep divisions about the extent to which a broader sharing of the burdens in Iraq must go hand in hand with a broader sharing of power and decision making.

But after four months in which the American occupation of Iraq has exacted a heavy toll, and with no end in sight, the new American approach to the United Nations can be seen as a call for help in the face of a politically intolerable arithmetic.

"We're 95 percent of the deaths, 95 percent of the costs, and more than 90 percent of the troops," Senator Joseph R. Biden Jr., a Delaware Democrat, said in a telephone interview today. "The costs are staggering, the number of troops are staggering, we're seeing continuing escalation of American casualties, and we need to turn to the U.N. for help, for a U.N.-sanctioned military operation that is under U.S. command."

With nearly 140,000 American soldiers still in Iraq, the military costs alone are running at nearly $4 billion a month, administration officials have said. More American troops have been killed since major combat operations ended than during them, at least 64 of them by hostile fire in a guerrilla resistance that shows no sign of dissipating.

And while the administration had hoped that Iraqi oil revenues might cover the cost of reconstruction, that optimism has faded to the point that L. Paul Bremer, the top American official in Iraq, said this week that the country would need "several tens of billions of dollars" from the United States and other countries in the next year to help in the rebuilding.


To enlist outside help in footing that bill, the United States will convene an international donors conference in Madrid in late October, with a preliminary meeting scheduled for next week in Brussels. But many experts say it will raise little of the needed cash unless the United States offers donors a bigger hand in how the money is spent, whether that occurs through the United Nations or in some other way.

"It's hard to believe that the big donors will write a check to support an American occupation over which they have no control," said James B. Steinberg, who served as deputy national security adviser under President Clinton and is now director of foreign policy studies at the Brookings Institution in Washington.

That the United States would want help from other nations in peacekeeping in Iraq and rebuilding its economy is not in itself a surprise; the administration made clear from the start that it hoped to enlist a "coalition of the willing" outside the United Nations, which it deeply mistrusts for its refusal to support the American invasion in the first place.

Indeed, even now, a multinational division is assembling in southwestern Iraq to replace the United States Marines, who are scheduled to leave in early September. The division is led by the Poles and will have brigades that are commanded by the Ukrainians and the Spanish. Other nations contributing troops including Bulgaria, Denmark, the Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Honduras, Hungary, Kazakhstan, Latvia, Lithuania, Mongolia, Nicaragua, Norway, the Philippines, Poland, Romania, Slovakia and Thailand.

Apart from that force, however, what has been unexpected is the reluctance of other countries to send troops in substantial numbers to Iraq without a fresh United Nations mandate. And together with the burdens imposed by the continuing attacks on the occupying forces and the country's infrastructure, the result has been a heavier cost than the administration had foreseen. As recently as May, the administration had hoped by this fall to reduce its troops in Iraq to just 30,000, or less than a quarter of those it now expects to keep in place for the indefinite future.

Winning a new Security Council mandate is now seen as important enough an American goal that Secretary of State Colin L. Powell interrupted a vacation last week to travel to New York to meet with Kofi Annan, the secretary general. A mandate would allow American commanders to call on troops from countries like India and Pakistan that opposed the war but may be willing to contribute troops to a force if it is approved by the United Nations.

Such a mandate might also open the way for the enlistment of a NATO force, including Turkey, Mr. Biden said today.

But it is far from clear whether the administration would be willing to make the concessions necessary to enlist the support of Security Council members like France and Russia, which have said a wider United Nations role in Iraq would have to include real power.

 

BOBDN

Banned
May 21, 2002
2,579
0
0
Originally posted by: Tabb
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: Tabb
Originally posted by: rahvin
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: Corn
However, you would think, in order to avoid any appearances of conflicts, why not just suspend his interests in Halliburton until after his tenure as VP is over?

What practical diffrence would it make, really? This is money he is *owed*, not earning. You would simply have the same argument if he were to "suspend" (assuming it would even be legal to suspend this deferred comp--the IRS might not allow these payments to be suspended if they were structured to defer the payroll taxes until the wages were claimed by Cheney) his owed wages. As stated earlier, he's gonna get this money anyway, so you tell me, what is the practical difference between receiving it now as opposed to 6 years from now?

Because, from the outside, it appears to be yet another revolving door between the Bush/Cheney whitehouse and big business. Cheney uses his government position to boost Halliburton's bottom line when Cheney is in office, when he's not he's actually working directly for the company.

In the early 90s, Halliburton was awarded the job to study and then implement privatization of routine army functions under Cheney, then secretary of defense. After quitting his Pentagon post, he went to work for Halliburton, increasing their government business until 2000 when Cheney took a multi-million $ golden parachute with him after being elected VP. If he's not on the ticket for 2004 (not likely) I have no doubt he'll return to working for Halliburton.

The entanglement is readily apparant. Having Cheney on both the governments payroll and a private-sector company that relies on government contracts seems wrong to me. Does it not seem wrong to you?

Why should it present a problem if the contract was negotiated before he was VP. He didn't know he was going to be VP of the US when he negotiated that contract with Haliburton so why should it be an issue now? He does nothing to recieve the money and gets it regardless of Haliburtons business. Your assertion that he will work for them after leaving politics is unsubstaniated garbage. Haliburton has a CEO, they are not going to dump their current CEO because Cheney is available again, the premise that they would fire the current CEO to hire him back is just rediculous.

Good Point.

I think you both are ignoring the influence that money (whether guaranteed or not) as well as company loyalty have on Cheney. He built Halliburton up, he has a stake in their well-being. He's continuing to take money from Halliburton even though he's on the gov't payroll. I can't believe you guys don't see the potential conflicts of interest there. Cheney set Halliburton up with sweet contracts in the early 90s, shifting and privatizing military support ops their way. Then he leaves the Pentagon to go work for them directly. How is it so unlikely that he'd do it again? He's done it once already. In fact, it seems like his MO hasn't really changed at all. A decade later, he's doing the same damn thing.

Your assuming he is going to back to haliburton? Did you even read Rahvin's post? What kind of position would cheny go back to? Someone his age would most likely retire.

Now for the part thats bold. Whats wrong with that? If they do a good job why should I care? Of course you could say its not right. I wouldn't care if it was a different company involved in rebuilding, expect do you know of one that would take up the job and do it for the same price as Hally and good enough?

You're missing the main point. The invasion and occupation of Iraq was unnecessary given the reasons Bush used have not been proved even though we now occupy Iraq and haven't been able to find any evidence of any of the allegations Bush used for his exuses to invade.

Now we MUST rely on Halliburton to fix what did not need to be broken.

This is a grave error on the part of the Bush administration. An error which was calculated and premeditated. An error our nation is now paying for with the blood or our troops and billions upon billions of dollars with no end in sight. An error which is forcing the Bush administration to seek the aid of the very institutions and nations they ignored and criticized before the invasion. Institutions and nations which it is now clear were right.

Without even the courtesy of an apology. Bush screwed up big time. We get to pay for his mistake. That makes me mad as hell. Do you expect everyone to just shrug and say, "Oh well, let's just forget about it and pay for Bush's mistake?"

We'll be paying for this mistake for decades. I suspect even those people who support Bush now will tire of the cost soon.
 

josphII

Banned
Nov 24, 2001
1,490
0
0
...The Bush administration was warned by the UN, their allies and dissenting citizens that there was no reason to invade Iraq while inspections were ongoing...

a) the reasons were numerous and monumental
b) inspections were ongoing??!! more like at a standstill. cant go here or there, cant look here. cant interview this person or that person, yada yada yada. by the time we went in military action was loooooong overdue.

i think you need to wake up from this perpetual dream state that you're in and introduce yourself to reality
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Insane3D
Who else would you have recommended?

Well, I think the main problem here is the appearance of favoritism towards Haliburton from the current administration, whether actual or imagined. All of this could have been completely avoided if the administration had simply followed the normal procedures for awarding these sort of contracts. If they had simply allowed the normal bidding process to take place, it would avoided any appearance of favoritism towards Haliburton. However, by simply awarding them these extremely large contracts in a no-bid situation, they opened themselves up for just this sort of problem.

I'm pretty sure the use of 'LOGCAP' had been established before Bush became President, so to suggest that he wasn't following "normal procedures" is silly.

CkG
 

BOBDN

Banned
May 21, 2002
2,579
0
0
Originally posted by: josphII
...The Bush administration was warned by the UN, their allies and dissenting citizens that there was no reason to invade Iraq while inspections were ongoing...

a) the reasons were numerous and monumental
b) inspections were ongoing??!! more like at a standstill. cant go here or there, cant look here. cant interview this person or that person, yada yada yada. by the time we went in military action was loooooong overdue.

i think you need to wake up from this perpetual dream state that you're in and introduce yourself to reality

The reasons have ALL proven false.

The inspections were indeed ongoing. The UN inspectors were successful in gaining cooperation and were indeed seeing to it that even questionable conventional missiles which may not have been over the UN mandated limits were being destroyed.

Why the rush to war? Here in reality that is the question.

That last statement of yours is just another in the long line of examples of the kind of unproductive comments that are being discussed here.

Please refrain from using this form of personal attack. The P&N forum is for discussion of our views not your idea of my mental state or the concept of our personal realities.
 

Insane3D

Elite Member
May 24, 2000
19,446
0
0
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: Insane3D
Who else would you have recommended?

Well, I think the main problem here is the appearance of favoritism towards Haliburton from the current administration, whether actual or imagined. All of this could have been completely avoided if the administration had simply followed the normal procedures for awarding these sort of contracts. If they had simply allowed the normal bidding process to take place, it would avoided any appearance of favoritism towards Haliburton. However, by simply awarding them these extremely large contracts in a no-bid situation, they opened themselves up for just this sort of problem.

I'm pretty sure the use of 'LOGCAP' had been established before Bush became President, so to suggest that he wasn't following "normal procedures" is silly.

CkG

I agree Cad, I'm just saying, in this particular case..especially with Cheyney's ties to that company, it may have been a wiser choice, politically anyways, to use a normal bidding process. Admittedly, I only have a basic knowledge of how this process works, I was just trying to convey a point. :)

 

BOBDN

Banned
May 21, 2002
2,579
0
0
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: Insane3D
Who else would you have recommended?

Well, I think the main problem here is the appearance of favoritism towards Haliburton from the current administration, whether actual or imagined. All of this could have been completely avoided if the administration had simply followed the normal procedures for awarding these sort of contracts. If they had simply allowed the normal bidding process to take place, it would avoided any appearance of favoritism towards Haliburton. However, by simply awarding them these extremely large contracts in a no-bid situation, they opened themselves up for just this sort of problem.

I'm pretty sure the use of 'LOGCAP' had been established before Bush became President, so to suggest that he wasn't following "normal procedures" is silly.

CkG

"The Army has used contractors to provide supplies and services during both peacetime and contingencies dating back to the Revolutionary War. On December 6, 1985 LOGCAP was established with the publication of AR 700-137."

Link

The appearance of impropriety due to the close ties of the VP with Halliburton is what concerns me. That and the belief IMO that we invaded Iraq on false evidence and are now responsible for the reconstruction there. "If it ain't broke don't fix it" can definitely be applied to our situation in Iraq regarding the invasion and occupation IMO.
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
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Vice President Al Gore's National Performance Review
"
The first LOGCAP was awarded in 1992, as the first Bush administration (including then-Secretary of Defense Cheney) was leaving office. Four companies competed, and the winner was Brown & Root, as it was known at the time (Halliburton changed the name to Kellogg Brown & Root after an acquisition in 1998). The multi-year contract was in effect during much of the Clinton administration. During those years, Brown & Root did extensive work for the Army under the LOGCAP contract in Haiti, Somalia, and Bosnia; contract workers built base camps and provided troops with electrical power, food, and other necessities.

In 1997, when LOGCAP was again put up for bid, Halliburton/Brown & Root lost the competition to another contractor, Dyncorp. But the Clinton Defense Department, rather than switch from Halliburton to Dyncorp, elected to award a separate, sole-source contract to Halliburton/Brown & Root to continue its work in the Balkans. According to a later GAO study, the Army made the choice because 1) Brown & Root had already acquired extensive knowledge of how to work in the area; 2) the company "had demonstrated the ability to support the operation"; and 3) changing contractors would have been costly. The Army's sole-source Bosnia contract with Brown & Root lasted until 1999. At that time, the Clinton Defense Department conducted full-scale competitive bidding for a new contract. The winner was . . . Halliburton/Brown & Root. The company continued its work in Bosnia uninterrupted.

...mentioned Halliburton's performance in its Report on Reinventing the Department of Defense, issued in September 1996. In a section titled "Outsourcing of Logistics Allows Combat Troops to Stick to Basics," Gore's reinventing-government team favorably mentioned LOGCAP, the cost-plus-award system, and Brown & Root, which the report said provided "basic life support services ? food, water, sanitation, shelter, and laundry; and the full realm of logistics services ? transportation, electrical, hazardous materials collection and disposal, fuel delivery, airfield and seaport operations, and road maintenance."
..."

At least it is clear, we are not talking about any impropriety, just how it appears to some people who take every chance they get to bash Pres. Bush anyway.




 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: BOBDN
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: Insane3D
Who else would you have recommended?

Well, I think the main problem here is the appearance of favoritism towards Haliburton from the current administration, whether actual or imagined. All of this could have been completely avoided if the administration had simply followed the normal procedures for awarding these sort of contracts. If they had simply allowed the normal bidding process to take place, it would avoided any appearance of favoritism towards Haliburton. However, by simply awarding them these extremely large contracts in a no-bid situation, they opened themselves up for just this sort of problem.

I'm pretty sure the use of 'LOGCAP' had been established before Bush became President, so to suggest that he wasn't following "normal procedures" is silly.

CkG

"The Army has used contractors to provide supplies and services during both peacetime and contingencies dating back to the Revolutionary War. On December 6, 1985 LOGCAP was established with the publication of AR 700-137."

Link

The appearance of impropriety due to the close ties of the VP with Halliburton is what concerns me. That and the belief IMO that we invaded Iraq on false evidence and are now responsible for the reconstruction there. "If it ain't broke don't fix it" can definitely be applied to our situation in Iraq regarding the invasion and occupation IMO.

I see you google well;) I knew of LOGCAP but I didn't realize that it went back to '85 until tonight.(that is the exact page I read before responding to Insane3D). There is good info on that site you linked. Now as to the concern of "appearance" - I can understand that to a point - but in light of the rest of the "conspiracy" accusations that have been leveled at the Bush Admin - I will just add it to the list of "possible, but not highly likely" conspiracy accusations.

Now I still take issue with your assertion that "The reasons have ALL proven false." That is clearly a misrepresentation of the facts(IMO) but that is a different topic but it is good to see you atleast labeled it as an "IMO" in your reply to me - but that whole thing is a different topic and has tons of threads in which it can be discussed.;)

CkG
 

Insane3D

Elite Member
May 24, 2000
19,446
0
0
At least it is clear, we are not talking about any impropriety, just how it appears to some people who take every chance they get to bash Pres. Bush anyway.

Again, not everyone in this thread is accusing anyone of anything. I personally don't know whether or not there was any favoritism in this case since I haven't seen any evidence either way. Even if there was some favoritism here, it really would have little to to with the President, and more the VP and the company in question.

That being said, the appearance of impropriety might be there for others than just people who blame Bush for everything.

:)
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
Originally posted by: Corn
Because, from the outside, it appears to be yet another revolving door between the Bush/Cheney whitehouse and big business.

What does "from the outside" mean? You mean to the ignorant moron who doesn't understand the concept of deferred comp it might appear to be a revolving door between Bush/Cheney and big business? Well, you'd get no argument from me, but then again, what ignorant morons think is matters little to me, nor to any reasonably learned individual. One thing is for sure though, it certainly does give you something to help aid in the expulsion of some hot gas...........

Having Cheney on both the governments payroll and a private-sector company that relies on government contracts seems wrong to me. Does it not seem wrong to you?

He is not "on the payroll", this implication by you is that he is still under Halliburton's employ, he is not. What is wrong is your consistant misrepresentation of this fact.

Look Corn, why don't you cool your jets? I don't need your not-so-cleverly veiled personal attacks. I never said Cheney has actually done anything wrong. All I'm saying here is that it certainly LOOKS like Cheney is unnecessarily tangled up with Halliburton. You're the one who ASKED. I gave my answer. I think it looks bad. Whether or not anything is actually there or not remains to be seen. Although, I think a lot of people, myself included, look at that relationship between Cheney and Halliburton and wonder if something's up. Especially given the lack of bidding. I thought privitization was supposed to open up government contracts to competition in the private-sector. Are we even saving money anymore?
 

BOBDN

Banned
May 21, 2002
2,579
0
0
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: Corn
Because, from the outside, it appears to be yet another revolving door between the Bush/Cheney whitehouse and big business.

What does "from the outside" mean? You mean to the ignorant moron who doesn't understand the concept of deferred comp it might appear to be a revolving door between Bush/Cheney and big business? Well, you'd get no argument from me, but then again, what ignorant morons think is matters little to me, nor to any reasonably learned individual. One thing is for sure though, it certainly does give you something to help aid in the expulsion of some hot gas...........

Having Cheney on both the governments payroll and a private-sector company that relies on government contracts seems wrong to me. Does it not seem wrong to you?

He is not "on the payroll", this implication by you is that he is still under Halliburton's employ, he is not. What is wrong is your consistant misrepresentation of this fact.

Look Corn, why don't you cool your jets? I don't need your not-so-cleverly veiled personal attacks. I never said Cheney has actually done anything wrong. All I'm saying here is that it certainly LOOKS like Cheney is unnecessarily tangled up with Halliburton. You're the one who ASKED. I gave my answer. I think it looks bad. Whether or not anything is actually there or not remains to be seen. Although, I think a lot of people, myself included, look at that relationship between Cheney and Halliburton and wonder if something's up. Especially given the lack of bidding. I thought privitization was supposed to open up government contracts to competition in the private-sector. Are we even saving money anymore?

Historically the savings from privatization have been a myth. The truth is govenment can do it for less than the private sector. And with government there is also a modicum of accountability.

I edit to add

In the case of LOGCAP the idea was to free up military personnel by using private sector companies for non-military services.
 

Corn

Diamond Member
Nov 12, 1999
6,389
29
91
Historically the savings from privatization have been a myth. The truth is govenment can do it for less than the private sector. And with government there is also a modicum of accountability.

You, of course, can back up those claims with some hard data, right?
 
Jan 12, 2003
3,498
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0
Originally posted by: Corn
Historically the savings from privatization have been a myth. The truth is govenment can do it for less than the private sector. And with government there is also a modicum of accountability.

You, of course, can back up those claims with some hard data, right?


..or at least a NY Times article, or some sort of 'fact'; I, too, would be interested in seeing some data on this.

 

BOBDN

Banned
May 21, 2002
2,579
0
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Originally posted by: Corn
Historically the savings from privatization have been a myth. The truth is govenment can do it for less than the private sector. And with government there is also a modicum of accountability.

You, of course, can back up those claims with some hard data, right?

In New Jersey the Division of Motor Vehicles was privatized by the Whitman administration (after the Florio administration had done all the hard work fixing it). Whitman claimed the state would save millions.

Parsons Infrastructure, a company who won the bid on state auto inspections in what was later proved to be a rigged bidding process in a series of articles in the Star Ledger (Parsons had come to NJ from CA and spread around enough cash in Trenton to buy the bid). Not only did the inspections lines increase from an average of around 30 minutes to over 2 hours but the equipment Parsons used, which they were told wasn't designed to work in all season inspection outdoor inspection stations, broke down when the temps dipped below freezing, which it does frequently in NJ. The staff was undertrained and rude. The state actually took the unusual step of SUSPENDING auto inspections. That's how bad it got. Bottom line the switch to privatization cost the taxpayers of NJ millions more than the state run system. And inspections still take longer than they ever did.

Adding insult to injury the DMV offices every driver in NJ if forced to use were privatized as well. First off the information boothes at DMV offices were left unstaffed to save money. You now have to just stand in line, usually an hour or more from my personal experience, just to find out if you're in the right line. The staff is rude. The DMV offices were clean when run by the state. They are filthy now. And the DMV is raising fees to pay for the privatization of the former state services.

There were a few school districts which attempted to privatize in NJ as well. That little experiment ended in weeks. I can't remember the name of the company which tried to educate students. They weren't around long enough to remember their name. Bottom line, more money for worse education.

The problem with privatization IMO is the state gives its blessing, as well as a monopoly, to companies which sometimes win bids in less than fair bidding processes, provide services which are inferior to the state services, don't have the same quality personnel state services provide, have little accountability and end up costing more than the state services.

In these times safety is also a prime concern. Privatizing state or federal agencies is dangerous IMO. Would you rather have government airport security or minimum wage security guards hired by companies whose main concern is profit rather than safety?

Here is AFSCME's take on privatization.

The Seven Deadly Myths of Privatization
 

josphII

Banned
Nov 24, 2001
1,490
0
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Historically the savings from privatization have been a myth. The truth is govenment can do it for less than the private sector. And with government there is also a modicum of accountability.

that is absolutely laughable