Changing the reasons for war once again

[cpumaster]

etech:
cpumaster
If you still believe that oil was the main reason for removing Saddam than you have missed the big picture of what has and will happen in the Middle East.

what will happen in ME? oh I forgot, next on the list of US imperial building ambition: Syria, Iran. The Bush admin has absolutely no interest in solving Israel-Palestinian conflict, but since Israel is our dog (or us theirs) and Palestinian suffering has caused worldwide furor, we at least need to pretend to be interested, at least until the army is ready for next war/conquest.
Please tell me, why there's no firm action taken on N. Korea continued defiance on WMD issue and does N. Korean real WMD is less threatening than Iraq's "imaginary" WMD (or maybe more, that's why the bully in Bush admin. is too scared to take any action)

 

[LunarRay]

HJD1
Stop hanging around moonie so much and just say what you wish to say. I understand your meaning but it is bothersome to have to pick it out of posts of that sort. Trying to appear intelligent by using such a style doesn't impress me. There are a few juviniles on the board that it impresses but not many bother coming to this forum.

Being unintellegent and juvenile I have but little choice. I came to this forum to gain maturity and edification. That you garnered meaning from my post indicates my progression from the unenviable position of ignorance I occupied a few short months ago. That you even choose to respond to my inane mutterings shows great compassion and unique understanding. Your sage advise regarding my buddy Moonbeam, I fear, would leave me with out peer so I must decline. In conclusion and to the extent it is relevant, I thank you and to the extent it is not I thank you anyway.

 

[Insane3D]

Originally posted by: HJD1
HJD1
Stop hanging around moonie so much and just say what you wish to say. I understand your meaning but it is bothersome to have to pick it out of posts of that sort. Trying to appear intelligent by using such a style doesn't impress me. There are a few juviniles on the board that it impresses but not many bother coming to this forum.

Being unintellegent and juvenile I have but little choice. I came to this forum to gain maturity and edification. That you garnered meaning from my post indicates my progression from the unenviable position of ignorance I occupied a few short months ago. That you even choose to respond to my inane mutterings shows great compassion and unique understanding. Your sage advise regarding my buddy Moonbeam, I fear, would leave me with out peer so I must decline. In conclusion and to the extent it is relevant, I thank you and to the extent it is not I thank you anyway.

No, no. Post like etech wants...jeez. :|

 

[LunarRay]

Insane3D

No, no. Post like etech wants...jeez. :|

[/quote]

I'am not oft able to comply with what I don't understand.
There can be no doubt that I don't understand.
Why I don't understand is well understood.
My blood pressure remains at 80/55 and pretty apt to stay that way....


Edit:

 

[Insane3D]

My blood pressure remains at 80/55 and pretty apt to stay that way....

...and you shall likely live a long and healthy life because of it my friend.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: etech
HJD1
Stop hanging around moonie so much and just say what you wish to say. I understand your meaning but it is bothersome to have to pick it out of posts of that sort. Trying to appear intelligent by using such a style doesn't impress me. There are a few juviniles on the board that it impresses but not many bother coming to this forum.

HJD1-
RE: PM see?

Sorry etech and others - only HJD1 will understand my intent

CkG

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: etech
HJD1
Stop hanging around moonie so much and just say what you wish to say. I understand your meaning but it is bothersome to have to pick it out of posts of that sort. Trying to appear intelligent by using such a style doesn't impress me. There are a few juviniles on the board that it impresses but not many bother coming to this forum.

HJD1-
RE: PM see?

Sorry etech and others - only HJD1 will understand my intent

CkG

I do understand but, I can only respond the same as above. I only know one way. We limited few are that way. Limited to think and write as we do.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: HJD1

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: etech
HJD1
Stop hanging around moonie so much and just say what you wish to say. I understand your meaning but it is bothersome to have to pick it out of posts of that sort. Trying to appear intelligent by using such a style doesn't impress me. There are a few juviniles on the board that it impresses but not many bother coming to this forum.

HJD1-
RE: PM see?

Sorry etech and others - only HJD1 will understand my intent

CkG

I do understand but, I can only respond the same as above. I only know one way. We limited few are that way. Limited to think and write as we do.

Point understood

CkG

 

[Moonbeam]

Of course the criticism equals America hating will continue to surface because people feel like the worst in the world and don't know it. That makes it impossible to have a center within and to derive your sense of self worth from within. Thence comes the mass struggle to find a substitute source of self appreciation, a protective ego, an illusion. Anything will do, a lover, a team, a race, a party, a nation, any old external we can grab onto that gets praise, that's a winner. So we become great because we are Americans. We hate ourselves, but we are great in that way. Well any criticism reminds us of our self hate, so any criticism has to be hate. You criticize America, man you criticize me and remind me unconsciously just how much I hate myself. Well let me tell you. I'd rather kill than remember. That's why you are a traitor if you doubt. You must not doubt because I never can. I must not remember, ever.

So no matter what the criticism is of that to which we have acquired a false sense of worth, we will deflect that criticism, we will rationalize it and push it away. We will reinvent our story again and again, add new excuses and throw out our cares for what was proved untrue. We have to, we are not prepared, psychologically to grow. We have, had, no idea as to what would be involved. You mean I have to see I think there's something wrong with me I've been hiding. Not a chance in hell. Truth is for the desperate, those stripped of self respect, those close to the ground, the types that Jesus healed. It's for the curious, who will pay any price to see. It is for the objective who follow data wherever it will lead. It's for those who will feel.

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc

BBD, your contempt for the US and the people in it seems so strong that I wonder why you continue to live in it.

Why must you equate my disdain for misguided foreign and domestic policy as contempt for America? I do have contempt for liars particularly when those lies have dire consequences. But everybody tells a whopper from time to time. We all have a tendency to accentuate a detail for the sake of advancing a larger argument that may very well be true.

Saddam was threat to America but Saddam was NOT an unmitigated or imminent threat. The bill of goods sold to the American public was Saddam, close ally to Al Qaeda, mortal threat to America, possessing stockpiled WMD, and all around bad guy. For you and your ilk 1 out of 4 ain't bad. For the reasonable people 1 out of 4 was necessary but not sufficient to launch a pre-emptive war. I will not call it unprecedented b/c Pearl Harbor was certainly in the ballpark.

I stay b/c I believe my country has greater days ahead of it than behind. But I will never shy from criticizing the failings of any American or American institution . . . holding your tongue does NOT make you a patriot . . . it's proof of a weak constitution. Regardless, our one and only child will hopefully be born in another country. I've never been ashamed to be an American but we are certainly sliding down a slope. I am hopeful but unlike my President I'm neither ignorant nor an idiot and unlike many others in the right (and left) of center I am not delusional. WMD in massive quantities brings this administration INSTANT credibility . . . satiating the people of Iraq brings this administration INSTANT credibility . . . anything less is an abject failure which will tarnish our country's image for the next century.

Hear, hear! This country has taken a dangerous turn, yet some self-professed "patriots" don't love her enough to put aside partisan cheerleading for even a moment. Every good coach knows that sometimes the team needs a pat on the back; other times it needs a kick in the butt. We won't keep this country great by burying our heads in the sand and pretending we're perfect.

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: etech
bowfinger,
Look up the word sarcasm and then read BBD's post again. If you don't get it, try reading it again. If you still don't get it sell your computer, you're too stupid to be on the internet.

With all due respect, ET, I suggest you look up the word "sarcasm". There is a difference between sarcasm and misrepresenting someone's words and position to discredit him. You did the latter.

In all fairness, it's the same technique Bush & Co. used frequently. People who opposed the war became "Saddam supporters" and "anti-American" and "pro-terrorism", for example. It is just as dishonest -- and despicable -- when they do it.

 

[etech]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc

High on the list of guiding moral principles for the Bush administration is the defense of human rights in the Congo, Sudan, Chechnya, Tibet, Aceh (Indonesia), North Korea . . . we just decided it was better to start with Iraq.

Yes, there's sarcasm but like everything I say there's at least three meanings. Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld never advanced human rights as a primary reason for intervention. Blair and Powell absolutely conveyed that message. But of course Blair and Powell are now irrelevant. If we had found any WMD in Iraq . . . we wouldn't be having this conversation. FOX and MSNBC would be chanting about how Bush had "Saved America" while cholera in Basra would remain a distant afterthought (granted it still languishes behind Laci Petersen . . . yes the husband killed her . . . the spouse is always guilty).

Every American can be proud that our armed forces freed a country from a brutal dictator. Every American should be embarassed that the world's single superpower can destroy with great acumen but cannot provide food, potable water, or domestic security . . . then again we cannot do it in America, either.

The simple truth is if Bush told America . . . we are going to spend $100B to liberate the people of Iraq and then several billion more each month to occupy them for the next 2-10yrs . . . how many people would have rallied for war? The administration decided to build a story that plays well with an insecure public (WMD) using hard voices (Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Perle, and occasionally Bush) along with the altruistic voice of American humanity (Powell and oddly Blair). It makes perfect sense in retrospect . . . very well orchestrated all the way to the Lincoln landing.

Clearly, they were banking on the American attention span. Unfortunately, a few generals (and the intelligence community) are starting to call BS or at the very least saying something is not right with the WMD story. Accordingly, the humanitarian argument has come to forefront.

BBD, pehaps I misunderstood. What in your opinion is the American attention span? Is it different from people in other countrie's attention span? Are Americans just dumber than people in other countries and can't pay attention for very long? Is it your contention that Americans all have ADD?

but cannot provide food, potable water, or domestic security . .then again we cannot do it in America, either.

Which one?, food, potable water or domestic security? How would you change things so that every American is guaranteed those things? How would any other country have done better in Iraq at providing those items?

 

[Moonbeam]

BBD, pehaps I misunderstood. What in your opinion is the American attention span? Is it different from people in other countrie's attention span? Are Americans just dumber than people in other countries and can't pay attention for very long? Is it your contention that Americans all have ADD?
------------------------------------------
Why was the world against us and only we and the willingly bribed, but not their people for it? It isn't a matter of dumb, but the enormity of the propaganda machine to which Ameircans are exposed. Most of the world has a real life away from the media, particularly the American media.
------------------

Which one?, food, potable water or domestic security? How would you change things so that every American is guaranteed those things? How would any other country have done better in Iraq at providing those items?
-----------------------------------------------------------
What other country would have the arrogance to need to?

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: Insane3D

My blood pressure remains at 80/55 and pretty apt to stay that way....

...and you shall likely live a long and healthy life because of it my friend.

Ahhh another fine day emerges.

Yes Insane, I will surely not die from the source of high blood pressure.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Why was the world against us and only we and the willingly bribed, but not their people for it? It isn't a matter of dumb, but the enormity of the propaganda machine to which Ameircans are exposed. Most of the world has a real life away from the media, particularly the American media.

"Most of the world" does have it's own agenda and propaganda. You seem to only see (or point out) our bias, but forget to point out their bias. No one is truely "free of gov't propaganda" if they live under a gov't rule.

CkG

 

[LunarRay]

MB,
Quote of a quote and quote,
BBD, pehaps I misunderstood. What in your opinion is the American attention span? Is it different from people in other countrie's attention span? Are Americans just dumber than people in other countries and can't pay attention for very long? Is it your contention that Americans all have ADD?
------------------------------------------
Why was the world against us and only we and the willingly bribed, but not their people for it? It isn't a matter of dumb, but the enormity of the propaganda machine to which Ameircans are exposed. Most of the world has a real life away from the media, particularly the American media.
********

I suggest the leader ship of the willingly bribed are more informed on the agenda that the people can't possibly understand. Like the child who can't understand why Nintendo will make him neurotic.

 

[Moonbeam]

Didn't say they were free, Caddy, just said they were much more free of our propaganda (and perhaps to some extent their own because of less media exposure) and that that freedom also seemed to have led to a worldwide opinion that we had no just cause to attack Iraq.

They didn't have an admin pumping terrorism = Iraq = immediate threat = nuclear bombs, chemical and biological weapons about to land on our door. Bush sold his war and we bought it. It wasn't hard. The soil had been plowed long ago in childhood in people like you. We are the greatest. We can do no wrong. The world is filled with Euro trash, pinko commies, leftist morons and the stupid. The devil can quote scripture. Be on your guard. Hold the torch high. Oh say can you see by the dawns early light,

 

[etech]

Originally posted by: HJD1
MB,
Quote of a quote and quote,
BBD, pehaps I misunderstood. What in your opinion is the American attention span? Is it different from people in other countrie's attention span? Are Americans just dumber than people in other countries and can't pay attention for very long? Is it your contention that Americans all have ADD?
------------------------------------------
Why was the world against us and only we and the willingly bribed, but not their people for it? It isn't a matter of dumb, but the enormity of the propaganda machine to which Ameircans are exposed. Most of the world has a real life away from the media, particularly the American media.
********

I suggest the leader ship of the willingly bribed are more informed on the agenda that the people can't possibly understand. Like the child who can't understand why Nintendo will make him neurotic.

Could it also be that the propaganda machines of the other countries you refer to influenced the people of those countries? Why does it seem to be your opinion that only Americans are the brainwashed and mindless robots? Is American media the only media that is biased?
You say that they spend time away from the media, where do they get their information than?

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Didn't say they were free, Caddy, just said they were much more free of our propaganda (and perhaps to some extent their own because of less media exposure) and that that freedom also seemed to have led to a worldwide opinion that we had no just cause to attack Iraq.

They didn't have an admin pumping terrorism = Iraq = immediate threat = nuclear bombs, chemical and biological weapons about to land on our door. Bush sold his war and we bought it. It wasn't hard. The soil had been plowed long ago in childhood in people like you. We are the greatest. We can do no wrong. The world is filled with Euro trash, pinko commies, leftist morons and the stupid. The devil can quote scripture. Be on your guard. Hold the torch high. Oh say can you see by the dawns early light,

I agree to a point, but maybe their "freedom from our propaganda" is because their gov't is busy filling their airwaves with their own propaganda, no?
Sure, Americans are taught this and taught that - you think other countries don't teach their own brand of "patriotism"?
My family had a German foreign exchange student, who was the same age as my sister, stay with us for a year. She was simply amazed by the difference in the way the 2 countries teach the history of WW1 and WW2. We aren't the only ones who indoctrinate our kids with nationalistic views

CkG

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: etech

Originally posted by: HJD1
MB,
Quote of a quote and quote,
BBD, pehaps I misunderstood. What in your opinion is the American attention span? Is it different from people in other countrie's attention span? Are Americans just dumber than people in other countries and can't pay attention for very long? Is it your contention that Americans all have ADD?
------------------------------------------
Why was the world against us and only we and the willingly bribed, but not their people for it? It isn't a matter of dumb, but the enormity of the propaganda machine to which Ameircans are exposed. Most of the world has a real life away from the media, particularly the American media.
********

I suggest the leader ship of the willingly bribed are more informed on the agenda that the people can't possibly understand. Like the child who can't understand why Nintendo will make him neurotic.

Could it also be that the propaganda machines of the other countries you refer to influenced the people of those countries? Why does it seem to be your opinion that only Americans are the brainwashed and mindless robots? Is American media the only media that is biased?
You say that they spend time away from the media, where do they get their information than?

I believe in the concept that all media everywhere has an agenda but, the primary one is profit. The media will deliver what the audience wants. Media will then seek to dispense the biased view of their ownership's position. Friendly Media are used by the governments to communicate the agenda the government wishes communicated. To the extent this dispensement is a true agenda so is the propaganda and conversely so. To the extent the media is unfriendly toward the government so to is the propaganda. So... what is left for the readership to distill is usually nothing but what they want to hear anyway. Not many listen well to opposing views or simply scoff and change the channel.

 

[Moonbeam]

We aren't the only ones who indoctrinate our kids with nationalistic views
--------------------------------
Does that mean, then, that it's a race. We have to be better at instilling nationalism, read propagandization, then other countries. What is nationalism and what is it used for? Do you want to be a carrier of a virus, an illusion, somebody else?s notion of reality, or even just what they want you to believe they don't believe themselves? I don't live in Germany. My duty is to Americans and to my country. Nationalism is the enemy of country. Nationalism took us to war in Iraq against our better sense. Without being lied to we would never have gone. We can be lied to because we are being, blinded by nationalism. Now we pay the bill.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
We aren't the only ones who indoctrinate our kids with nationalistic views
--------------------------------
Does that mean, then, that it's a race. We have to be better at instilling nationalism, read propagandization, then other countries. What is nationalism and what is it used for? Do you want to be a carrier of a virus, an illusion, somebody else?s notion of reality, or even just what they want you to believe they don't believe themselves? I don't live in Germany. My duty is to Americans and to my country. Nationalism is the enemy of country. Nationalism took us to war in Iraq against our better sense. Without being lied to we would never have gone. We can be lied to because we are being, blinded by nationalism. Now we pay the bill.

No, you asked the question: "Why was the world against us and only we and the willingly bribed, but not their people for it? It isn't a matter of dumb, but the enormity of the propaganda machine to which Ameircans are exposed."

I merely pointed out that we aren't the only ones with propaganda, so this "world against us" has it's own agenda too. You seem to imply that our propaganda is somehow worse than theirs, which isn't neccessarily the case.

" Without being lied to we would never have gone." - You don't know this. You can't prove it was a lie, and you also don't know(if it really was a lie) that we still wouldn't have gone in.
"We can be lied to because we are being, blinded by nationalism." - obviously someone who is blinded can possibly be lied to. In the case of Iraq though, I think the nationalism came because of the war - not the the war came because of nationalism.

CkG

 

[etech]

HJD1

I believe in the concept that all media everywhere has an agenda but, the primary one is profit. The media will deliver what the audience wants. Media will then seek to dispense the biased view of their ownership's position. Friendly Media are used by the governments to communicate the agenda the government wishes communicated. To the extent this dispensement is a true agenda so is the propaganda and conversely so. To the extent the media is unfriendly toward the government so to is the propaganda. So... what is left for the readership to distill is usually nothing but what they want to hear anyway. Not many listen well to opposing views or simply scoff and change the channel.

I mostly agree, but the point is, that can be said about the media of any free country. So why is it the contention of some that only Americans are brainwashed?

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: etech
HJD1

I believe in the concept that all media everywhere has an agenda but, the primary one is profit. The media will deliver what the audience wants. Media will then seek to dispense the biased view of their ownership's position. Friendly Media are used by the governments to communicate the agenda the government wishes communicated. To the extent this dispensement is a true agenda so is the propaganda and conversely so. To the extent the media is unfriendly toward the government so to is the propaganda. So... what is left for the readership to distill is usually nothing but what they want to hear anyway. Not many listen well to opposing views or simply scoff and change the channel.

I mostly agree, but the point is, that can be said about the media of any free country. So why is it the contention of some that only Americans are brainwashed?

I could not agree with the notion that American Media are unique. I know it is the same in the countries I've lived or worked and they are European... Ireland, England, Belgium, France, and Holland. I just don't believe the brain washing occurs from the media. I suspect, and for the most part, it is developed over time from the individual's enviornment; his home, his friends, his school, etc. the media simply feeds the bias already present.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: HJD1

Originally posted by: etech
HJD1

I believe in the concept that all media everywhere has an agenda but, the primary one is profit. The media will deliver what the audience wants. Media will then seek to dispense the biased view of their ownership's position. Friendly Media are used by the governments to communicate the agenda the government wishes communicated. To the extent this dispensement is a true agenda so is the propaganda and conversely so. To the extent the media is unfriendly toward the government so to is the propaganda. So... what is left for the readership to distill is usually nothing but what they want to hear anyway. Not many listen well to opposing views or simply scoff and change the channel.

I mostly agree, but the point is, that can be said about the media of any free country. So why is it the contention of some that only Americans are brainwashed?

I could not agree with the notion that American Media are unique. I know it is the same in the countries I've lived or worked and they are European... Ireland, England, Belgium, France, and Holland. I just don't believe the brain washing occurs from the media. I suspect, and for the most part, it is developed over time from the individual's enviornment; his home, his friends, his school, etc. the media simply feeds the bias already present.

Indeed. Every nation has a certain historical perspective, a "personality" if you will, that allows the media and others to benefit. For example, I make the claim that in the past the US has participated in acts equal to that of Nazi Germany and far worse than Saddam ever did. I am in fact right, but the knee jerk reaction will be for many to get their hackles up and have massive cows at the statement without thinking about what it is I mean. Now, news organizations are businesses and businesses exist to make money. If they started bringing up unpopular facts, or present them in ways that get peoples goat, they will eventually go the way of the dodo. They sell what sells. Limbaugh, for example is successful not because he makes people to convert to his way of thinking, but it is that he validates his listeners perspectives. He tells them what they want to hear, reassuring them that their POV is the correct one. Not only that, but the people who are part of the media are a part of the nation and subject to the same view of the world as anyone else. Here, they are trapped in an American shaped box, just as the French are in a French shaped one.