Changing the reasons for war once again

[flavio]

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: Gaard
The UN concurred that there was 'solid' evidence of WMD? Is that what you're saying?

Prove that he purposely lied and I'll believe you - wether we find WMD or not. But no one has presented proof that he knew that Saddam didn't have WMD.

Well, I have proof. SOLID proof. Unfortunately, I can't tell you what that proof is out of fear for the well-being of my informants.

No - read what I said

"Bush and Co. looked at the evidence - the UN concurred(material breech)..."

Are you saying that the UN didn't consider them in material breech? And what were the cease fire terms?

Hmmm...

Yeah - Bush just made the whole thing up so he could play Risk(TM) but using real people

CkG

The UN did not ever concurr with the U.S. invasion.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: Gaard
The UN concurred that there was 'solid' evidence of WMD? Is that what you're saying?

Prove that he purposely lied and I'll believe you - wether we find WMD or not. But no one has presented proof that he knew that Saddam didn't have WMD.

Well, I have proof. SOLID proof. Unfortunately, I can't tell you what that proof is out of fear for the well-being of my informants.

No - read what I said

"Bush and Co. looked at the evidence - the UN concurred(material breech)..."

Are you saying that the UN didn't consider them in material breech? And what were the cease fire terms?

Hmmm...

Yeah - Bush just made the whole thing up so he could play Risk(TM) but using real people

CkG

The UN concurred that Saddam was in material breech, NOT that he was an eminent threat to the US. That was absolutely Bush's concoction, and his justification for the 'pre-emptive strike.' And it was, quite obviously, a lie.

 

[jackschmittusa]

The Administration consistantly presented BS info that Iraq had WMD. Some of this stuff was so ludicrous that I could not be convinced that it had been accepted in error. I adamantly supported more time for the inspectors because I felt that if they had WMD, they would either eventually be found, or if they did not, Bush would eventually have to shut up about it. Either way any threat was being contained. If containment was good enough for a half century against the Soviets, why wasn't it good enough now? War should always be the last, desperate choice. The concept that pre-emptive wars are morally right is the scariest thing I have heard in my life. We have now even shown that it is OK to lie about the preceived danger to justify them. I predict that if there are any historians in the 22nd century, they will record this as the defining act of this century.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Gaard
If it turns out that deceit was used, it wouldn't have been used to play a game of real-life Risk. (Oh, were you joking?)

Are you saying that it is beyond any comprehension that there may have been an alterior reason than WMD for this war?

No I've said the same thing infact - WMD wasn't the only reason for the war - but you people claiming it was and that he lied is plain ignorance of the facts. There isn't a doubt in my mind that he played the WMD card to bolster support, but to say he purposely lied about Saddam having them is wrong - unless you have some facts to present

Flavio - really? wow - I never would have realized that without your help

But the fact is...that the original cease fire terms did give a green light for further action if he (Saddam) was in material breech of the resolution - guess what The UN said he was in material breech, but didn't do a damn thing about it. Bush did

Gonad - And you have inside information? All you have is speculation. No one here knows what intelligence info Bush had that could have led to his decision. Did Iraq end up not being a major military threat? No. But neither was Alqueda - but does that mean he didn't pose a risk?

Again, I challenge you to present one country(in the UN) that didn't believe Saddam had WMD when passing those resolutions.
Also - If you can prove that Bush purposely lied about about Saddam having WMD - then I will conceed that Bush is a liar.

CkG

 

[Insane3D]

Also - If you can prove that Bush purposely lied about about Saddam having WMD - then I will conceed that Bush is a liar.

So it would be ok if he lied, but didn't exactly mean to?

 

[flavio]

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY


Flavio - really? wow - I never would have realized that without your help

But the fact is...that the original cease fire terms did give a green light for further action if he (Saddam) was in material breech of the resolution - guess what The UN said he was in material breech, but didn't do a damn thing about it. Bush did

Give a green light for further action? Still trying to justify what Bush did through UN terms even though the UN did not approve? It's ridiculous and you know it.

Further action could be a lot of things....it sure as hell didn't mean U.S. invasion and occupation. Many countries are in breech of UN resolutions, that doesn't give the U.S. the go ahead to invade each of them.

If you can prove that Bush purposely lied about about Saddam having WMD - then I will conceed that Bush is a liar

The lies are obvious. Bush told the American public and other countries that we were invading a Iraq for particular reasons....which turn out not to be the real reasons.

 

[CaptnKirk]

I don't really think that Bush himself is a liar - per se, but the inner circle with their neo-cons Rummy, Wolfie, Kristol, Gingritch
those people deliberately feed him the information that they selected to spark a feeding frenzy or lynch mob mentality.
Bush either didn't care for the truth or facts, or he wasn't bright enough to see through the charade.
Collin Powell, being a true good soldier, followed orders - as he knew he had to do in his role.

So technically the inner circle is a treasonous pack of unindited co-conspirators, that should be arrested
and brought up on charges of conspiracy to falsify information, and compromising the security of the United States.

The internal working of the CIA and FBI tried to get information past the inner circle directly to the President,
but it was thwarted and information was withheld, as it did not support the agenda that was being put forward.
There is going to be a huge data explosion on this in the upcoming days, I hope these creeps hang.
Treason againt the citizens of this country is a felony that carries the death penalty.

The last time there was this much manipulation of information by our government was under Reagan
and the Iran-Contra scandal that Ollie North took the sacrifical fall for so Ronnie wouldn't.
Look closely at Bushes Administration - it's the same group of neo-cons that reagan had
but this time they are a lot braver with their actions since big money is behind them.

You wonder why the rest of the world dislikes the American Political Machine ?
Look at it - it's a corrupt bunch of manipulative egotists.
Do you really trust a government that makes up what it wants without facts?
Then bullys others into 'With us - or against us' with pre-emptive attacks -
that's what Hitler and Stalin did. Great historical place for our country to be in.
I ended up not trusting Nixon's machine - and this is what remains of the Nixon Machine
combined with the Reagan Machine.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: flavio

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY


Flavio - really? wow - I never would have realized that without your help

But the fact is...that the original cease fire terms did give a green light for further action if he (Saddam) was in material breech of the resolution - guess what The UN said he was in material breech, but didn't do a damn thing about it. Bush did

Give a green light for further action? Still trying to justify what Bush did through UN terms even though the UN did not approve? It's ridiculous and you know it.

Further action could be a lot of things....it sure as hell didn't mean U.S. invasion and occupation. Many countries are in breech of UN resolutions, that doesn't give the U.S. the go ahead to invade each of them.

If you can prove that Bush purposely lied about about Saddam having WMD - then I will conceed that Bush is a liar

The lies are obvious. Bush told the American public and other countries that we were invading a Iraq for particular reasons....which turn out not to be the real reasons.

Get a clue flavio - WTF do you think "Further action" means in a cease-fire situation?

"lies are obvious"? - You meant that the UN has lied to us since the end of Gulf I that Saddam had WMD? Where did Bush get his "particular reasons" to invade Iraq? Couldn't be that Saddam admitted to having WMD, him using WMD, or the fact that the UN resolutions said he had WMD? Nah - he made it all up himself - just to get the oil.

Insane3D - Is a cop lying if he arrests you for drug paraphenalia, but later tests show that infact the paraphenalia didn't contain controlled substance?

CkG

 

[Insane3D]

Insane3D - Is a cop lying if he arrests you for drug paraphenalia, but later tests show that infact the paraphenalia didn't contain controlled substance?

Well, I would say no. Most people don't smoke tobacco in a bong, so it's logical to assume it is for drugs.

My point was just to ask you if you thought it would be ok if he lied, but with good intentions. I actually lean towards what kirk is saying, I think it is more of the people around him than himself. As much as you might think I am a Bush hater, peace pussy, or whatever, I will give our President the benefit of the doubt for now. I think GWB is the type of person that likes to surround himself with people that do all the dirty work, and he relies on them heavily. I think they may have used that trait against him to further their agenda. I really don't know. The fact is, the President came on TV several times and told us how we needed to attack Iraq because of the large number of WMD they had and were refusing to give up, and that these could pose a risk to us if they fell into the worng hands. That was the only reason we went to war. He constantly mentioned 9/11 in the same breath as how many WMD's Iraq supposedly had to further scare us into thinking if something wasn't done, those weapons might be used in the next 9/11.. If none are found, that is a lie, plain and simple. If you can't see that, I'm sorry.

 

[flavio]

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Get a clue flavio - WTF do you think "Further action" means in a cease-fire situation?

"lies are obvious"? - You meant that the UN has lied to us since the end of Gulf I that Saddam had WMD? Where did Bush get his "particular reasons" to invade Iraq? Couldn't be that Saddam admitted to having WMD, him using WMD, or the fact that the UN resolutions said he had WMD? Nah - he made it all up himself - just to get the oil.

Further action means further action. It does not mean a U.S. invasion without UN support. That should be obvious. Inspections were in place to determine if there were any WMD but ShrubCo cut them short.

You can find what I mean by "The lies are obvious" by not cutting out my following sentence.

The lies are obvious. Bush told the American public and other countries that we were invading a Iraq for particular reasons....which turn out not to be the real reasons.

As it turns out even ShrubCo is trying to downplay the WMD reason that you are still clinging to.

 

[Gaard]

CADkindaGUY - <<There isn't a doubt in my mind that he played the WMD card to bolster support>>

So it would seem we are in agreement that Bush felt he never would've received the support he needed by emphasizing the need to free the Iraqi people, as has been suggested numerous times as all the justification that's needed for our attack. Instead he needed something else...because, and this is just my opinion here, it was pretty clear right from the beginning that he wanted to go to war with Iraq. Way, way before the attack...before 1441 even...it was pretty evident that war was already penned in. As had been stated, on these boards and in many editorial columns around the country, it wasn't a matter of 'if', but 'when'.

Now, for the sake of arguement, assume for a minute that the idea that for some unknown (to me anyways) reason Bush & Co did indeed want this war. He had to, and I'll use your words here, play the WMD card in order to get the support he figured he'd need. Isn't it easy to figure that a little (at the very least) exaggerating might be in order?

Now let's look at the time of events. When did Bush first claim to have his 'solid' evidence of WMD in Iraq? Dec 5th. That's 2 days before Iraq was to issue it's weapons declaration...Dec 7th. Doesn't this strike you as a little odd, or at least convenient? The American (not to mention the world) population is told that the leader of the free world has 'solid' evidence that Iraq has WMD 2 days before Iraq, without a doubt from any sane person on the planet, was to claim it possessed no WMD. Hmmm.

 

[CaptnKirk]

And it just happened to coincide with the anniversary of Pear Harbour to capitalize on emotion and patriotic history.

We been 'takked afore, but notta gin.

 

[Tripleshot]

Where in the hell are all the Bush supporters now? I supported this war on the basis Bush was telling the truth,and Saddam had WMD's and intended t ouse them against his neighbors, if not us. now we are being told that it may have been a fabrication to get people like me to endorse a war to prevent Saddam from doing bad things?

Good heavens, this sucks.

I am happy that Saddam is out of power,but where is he? Where is Osama? Do I feel any safer today than 10/12?

NO! I feel somewhat euphoric that Iraqi's are free of a tyrants rule, and Afghan women can now go to school without being stoned to death, but damn it, where is the honor when your leaders lie to you to manipultate you into doing things you may otherwise not even consider?

This, along with the pathetic economic problems and domestic policies of this adminstration make it extremely difficult for even the most right wing conservatives able to justify this President with a straight face.

Embarassing, isn't it?:Q

 

[Insane3D]

Here are a couple more articles from CNN..

U.S. general: Lack of Iraqi WMD 'a surprise'


Pentagon challenges Vanity Fair report

 

[Moonbeam]

All the American soldiers that died in Iraq were murdered by George Bush and by the fact that Americans believe in lies. All the innocent civilian dead were murdered in the same way.

 

[Moonbeam]

There is not the slightest chance in hell that Americans would have supported the Iraq war given the real reasons it was fought, not the slightest chance in hell. There is not the slightest chance in hell that Bush didn't know he was lying, not the slightest chance in hell.

 

[Zebo]

Not WMD it's KTATTG

Kick Their Ass and Take Their Gas

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
There is not the slightest chance in hell that Americans would have supported the Iraq war given the real reasons it was fought, not the slightest chance in hell. There is not the slightest chance in hell that Bush didn't know he was lying, not the slightest chance in hell.

Forget your meds tonight? or did you just take a double dose?

So, enlightened one

....what is this secret "real" reason(s) we went to war?

CkG

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
There is not the slightest chance in hell that Americans would have supported the Iraq war given the real reasons it was fought, not the slightest chance in hell. There is not the slightest chance in hell that Bush didn't know he was lying, not the slightest chance in hell.

Forget your meds tonight? or did you just take a double dose?

So, enlightened one

....what is this secret "real" reason(s) we went to war?

CkG

Res Ipsa Loquitor

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: HJD1

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
There is not the slightest chance in hell that Americans would have supported the Iraq war given the real reasons it was fought, not the slightest chance in hell. There is not the slightest chance in hell that Bush didn't know he was lying, not the slightest chance in hell.

Forget your meds tonight? or did you just take a double dose?

So, enlightened one

....what is this secret "real" reason(s) we went to war?

CkG

Res Ipsa Loquitor

Nice try, but you'll have to do better than that

CkG

 

[Moonbeam]

Caddy, I'll tell you the real reasons if you prove to me that Bush didn't know he was lying. I will need a chemical analysis of his brain tissue, assuming its presence, and RNA transfer and readout of the relevant memory storage proteins into a sentient lie detector. But be careful. I have been watching your reasoning process, actually your lack of reasoning process, and have decided that I may try, if you are successful with the direct readout of Bush's memories via the living machine, to move the discussion another further step back and insist, also, on testimony from God that George will be burning in hell. You are what is commonly known as a butt head. Sorry.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Caddy, I'll tell you the real reasons if you prove to me that Bush didn't know he was lying. I will need a chemical analysis of his brain tissue, assuming its presence, and RNA transfer and readout of the relevant memory storage proteins into a sentient lie detector. But be careful. I have been watching your reasoning process, actually your lack of reasoning process, and have decided that I may try, if you are successful with the direct readout of Bush's memories via the living machine, to move the discussion another further step back and insist, also, on testimony from God that George will be burning in hell. You are what is commonly known as a butt head. Sorry.

Buahahaha This ought to be fun

I'll do, if you do, but only if....

CkG

 

[Moonbeam]

I gave the reasons for the war about a billion times and long long before the war began. Project for a New American Century

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I gave the reasons for the war about a billion times and long long before the war began. Project for a New American Century

Sorry, I forgot I needed to use the ultra secret Reynolds decoder 2000

CkG

 

[Moonbeam]

Sorry, I forgot I needed to use the ultra secret Reynolds decoder 2000
------------------------------
That's not all you forgot to use.