RadiclDreamer
Diamond Member
- Aug 8, 2004
- 8,622
- 40
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Do you realise you were beaten pretty much from the get go? You sound like an arrogant college turd.
Do you realise you were beaten pretty much from the get go? You sound like an arrogant college turd.
RadiclDreamer
Diamond Member
- Aug 8, 2004
- 8,622
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alkemyst
No Lifer
- Feb 13, 2001
- 83,769
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Wear the badge of an idiot proudly then. I have not stated anything not factual nor opinionated...the rest is down right BS.
I guess since you two must also be network knowledgable you both are pulling down $150k or so and think getting a CCIE should be simple.
much of the problem with you in this thread is, as usual, your lousy attitude and tone. people are usually tired of your attitude as soon as they see your handle, because you so often have a crappy one.
and because of that, nobody cares if youre right or wrong, they just care that your attitude is shit.
theres no way in hell this is a surprise to you.
No thanks Alky, you've been doing a fine job of that on your own for the past 9 years here. I never said obtaining a CCIE was simple, nor did anyone else above. You're taking it wrong. Spidey and Radicl both said certain tracks ARE easier than others. I agree. I've seen much of what's on the R&S, SP, and the Storage labs. Do I have any of them? No. I don't think they're worth the hype, personally, and I'm not a fan of Cisco. I prefer Juniper and Junos. My employer doesn't give two shits what certs you have or lack. You'd just best know your stuff and be able to do it every day. Book smart isn't worth a hill of beans to me nor my employer.
alkemyst
No Lifer
- Feb 13, 2001
- 83,769
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You are asking me if it's a surprise? I expect the morons to just label me since I have shown them wrong so many times and people hate that. They'd rather just be agreed with and sent on their stupid way.
Problem is is way too many quote things I never said, stances I never had, etc because their judgement is piss poor and they are the type to stereotype and hate.
Fact is much of the above is a bunch of blowhard BS...saying all this and that is easy and yet no one has the cert. Then they say I don't have that cert because it's worthless.
Unfortunately, it can be. There are bootcamp-style courses that cover both the written and the Lab. There are only so many Labs, and the "Tricks" needed / things to looks for are given. It's not a slam-dunk, but with much of the mystery out of it, the stress levels go down, and the performance goes up ... most of the common mistakes are covered.
We have hired CCIE contractors for under $50K, we have also had CCIEs (two specifically) that were nearly network idiots; one didn't know the difference between an ISDN jack, a PBX jack, and a POTs jack ... she kept trying to plug in her modem to an ISDN jack and didn't know why it wouldn't work. That one was also "less than stellar" in her knowledge of some very basic LAN / WAN principles. The Second One totally failed on WAN stuff, specifically Frame-Relay (!!!!) and MPLS.
Like anything else, there's good ones, there's bad ones, and the only way to know the difference is to test 'em yourself. Certification / degree may be a reasonable indication of what to expect, but it's not an automatic given.
I was also shown a group of folks where one of them earned their CCIE Voice, then coached many of his team on how to pass the CCIE Voice exam and worked them through the Lab ... they admitted they cheated and just figure everyone would, given the opportunity. Every one that passed spent time walking the others through the Lab.
If they were competent, I'd mind a lot less ... but most of these guys were idiots in many ways.
Nothing is a given. Not even a CCIE of any flavor.
alkemyst
No Lifer
- Feb 13, 2001
- 83,769
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I agree there are CCIE?s that seem to be idiots (compared to where a CCIE should be) and there are levels among CCIE?s, however, to be coached is far from slam dunk. I know sharp people that took 4-5 times to pass CCIE Voice, that?s about $2500 a shot (hotel, flight, lab fee, etc), so a lot of money. You have to know your shit, know it all inside out and then you go for it. There is nothing wrong with bootcamps, nothing wrong with bootcamp labs. If someone compromised the actual CCIE lab and taught the actual lab verbatim (there are probably 5 or so labs in circulation at any time) then that is cheating, but anything else is just practice. If you are Cisco certified I believe you should be letting Cisco know about these people going around that quite a of them robbed the CCIE voice cert. Passing the written is not really a 'test' so much as to show a candidate if they are not capable of the first leg, the more expensive and time consuming part should be postponed. Not saying the written is basic, but it's not the level a true CCIE needs to be.
I have never heard of a contractor at 50k that is a CCIE, contractors cost more than regular salary employees not less. Were they even verified through CCO? What knowledgebase did that company think they were getting at $50k?
Plugging the ISDN jack wrong is not a big deal, ISDN is no longer tested and has not been for some time. How many people have seen a BRI interface these days really. If your an R&S CCIE maybe you don?t know shit about RJ11 jacks, pots lines, pri, bri, etc......so what.
If your a R&S CCIE and don?t know Frame Relay yes that is a problem, but if you don?t know MPLS so what, very few people do, because the majority of places doing label switching are service providers and they don?t hire professional services that much, they use in house people, so MPLS is sort of specialized and has its own CCIE track.
It's like going to an ear, nose and throat doctor because you have a growth on your leg...you'd hope he'd tell you he is the wrong guy, but some don't care.
You have idiot doctors/lawyers, other doctors and lawyers will tell you they are idiots, but the person obviously still passed the tests. These are outliers, but the average is still kept in high regard, and that?s all we are talking about is that its the best of the best, exceptions exist everywhere, and so do cheaters. You always want to screen any candidate in an interview process involving numerous diagrams, actual scenarios, and serious Q&A that is not all technical but even to check culture fit.
The bottom line is though, I don't believe anyone above is a CCIE, and I don?t care who you are, you have no idea what it means, or how hard it is to achieve until you have done it. Many have had this outlook on it until they actually became one.
I have never heard of a contractor at 50k that is a CCIE, contractors cost more than regular salary employees not less. Were they even verified through CCO? What knowledgebase did that company think they were getting at $50k?
Plugging the ISDN jack wrong is not a big deal, ISDN is no longer tested and has not been for some time. How many people have seen a BRI interface these days really. If your an R&S CCIE maybe you don?t know shit about RJ11 jacks, pots lines, pri, bri, etc......so what.
If your a R&S CCIE and don?t know Frame Relay yes that is a problem, but if you don?t know MPLS so what, very few people do, because the majority of places doing label switching are service providers and they don?t hire professional services that much, they use in house people, so MPLS is sort of specialized and has its own CCIE track.
It's like going to an ear, nose and throat doctor because you have a growth on your leg...you'd hope he'd tell you he is the wrong guy, but some don't care.
You have idiot doctors/lawyers, other doctors and lawyers will tell you they are idiots, but the person obviously still passed the tests. These are outliers, but the average is still kept in high regard, and that?s all we are talking about is that its the best of the best, exceptions exist everywhere, and so do cheaters. You always want to screen any candidate in an interview process involving numerous diagrams, actual scenarios, and serious Q&A that is not all technical but even to check culture fit.
The bottom line is though, I don't believe anyone above is a CCIE, and I don?t care who you are, you have no idea what it means, or how hard it is to achieve until you have done it. Many have had this outlook on it until they actually became one.
The primary problem I have with certifications (any of them) is summed up with your statements:
"ISDN is no longer tested" followed by "How many people have seen a BRI interface these days really."
See. IMO, the idea is not to study for the test; it's to study and learn the technologies and concepts, useing the test / certification to document your learning achievement. i.e., the test is not the goal, the knowledge is ... and the test is just a way to document it.
ISDN is still widely used, BRI backup is still very common, even in / especially in Large Enterprise networks and small businesses; PRI is still the primary gateway for VoIP into the PSTN system.
OK, so it's not tested ... it's still very important and people should know it well.
In the case of the CCIE and their laptop, we told her it was an ISDN jack and we were met with a look that bespoke total sub-cranial crickets syndrome ... you know that "So? Are you telling me it won't allow me to dial into AOL and get my mail?"... totally unacceptable. Even if she didn't know how to configure it, a CCIE is expected to know common technologies and protocols (remember that "E" at the ends stands for "Expert"). She was verified to be a genuine CCIE in the Cisco registry before we hired her.
As for an R&S that doesn't know FR or MPLS; that's also totally unacceptable. Frame is everywhere; it's the norm, it will be the norm for quite a while. Frame Relay to a CCIE should be kindergarten stuff.
MPLS is now very common. If you're not in the provider network, chances are that the network you (as a CCIE) manage will connect to an MPLS-based WAN, or that the enterprise will use MPLS internally, mostly because of the QOS services offered, fast recovery, and traffic engineering it allows. If you're not already managing or connecting to an MPLS net, chances are you are (your company is) planning for it, and knowledge of how the systems work is vital to designing it for your network or properly implementing the interface to the carrier.
I also didn't mean to imply that "bootcamps" were a Bad Thing, they are a Very Good Thing, but NOT FOR PRIMARY EDUCATION. They are perfect for someone that has all the routine, fundamental, and foundational concepts down tight, but are not exposed to some of the peripheral technologies, mechanics, and protocols enough to be comfortable with them. Bootcamps are a good way to "fill in the cracks;" they are an exceptionally BAD way to learn the stuff for the first time, or early on, before a good understanding has been established (for all certs from any company).
As for the doctor analogy, sorry, but I completely disagree. AN ENT guy, or Cardiac specialist ... they are all doctors first; trained at the same basic level in all of the fundamental things that makes a doctor a doctor. After that, they are specialists: "EXPERTS" in a field they have studied, practiced, and have suitable experience and exposure to handle anything that is presented in that realm.
I treat CCIEs like any other unknown quantity. There is no guarantee that they can pick their nose any better than any other Netd00d. Until they can demonstrate competence and understanding, I watch what they do very closely to make sure they don't screw something up (doing it "the book way I learned for the Lab").
alkemyst
No Lifer
- Feb 13, 2001
- 83,769
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That's the thing though...old stuff gets depreciated for the newer tech. If you need older technologies supported at more than a layman level, you go niche market.
Like finding a COBOL programmer.
ISDN is getting made extinct quickly. Being used versus being deployed is the key thing. PRI was not what I mentioned.
The thing with the CCIE is it's not really the test or the lab...it's showing the dedication to be able to have mastery or all the tools at your disposal. Heck I am sure some non-cisco people could do the labs if given enough time...
Without knowing who you dealt with it's a hard call. Being you know personally people that are cheating through the testing shows probably a good reason why they aren't capable, hiring at $50k for contractors again is probably going to bring out the flunkys.
Again FR vs MPLS...there is a dividing line. It really depends on what one is using and deploying. What one thinks is common may really not be so. The Cisco tests move in those directions. It's preparing one for the most common set of technology.
As far as what you are connecting to...there isn't much you can control anyway if it's not your net. They give you the link and you are at their mercy. As an admin, you'd know if you aren't getting the right performance and then it's a back and forth process.
My doctor analogy is exactly what you are describing. I don't know if you know many great doctors...I have been surrounded by them growing up. Outside of specialties many will need to look things up and double check to be sure. It's not that they can't figure it out, but you aren't usually picking a doctor today hoping he can do that. That said out of med school and prior to residency not many are really doctors yet.
There are many doctors out there that are down right dangerous. Many choose to sell services at the lowest price point or move to countries where they are one step better than someone with no training. Any certified person can fall into that category.
Like finding a COBOL programmer.
ISDN is getting made extinct quickly. Being used versus being deployed is the key thing. PRI was not what I mentioned.
The thing with the CCIE is it's not really the test or the lab...it's showing the dedication to be able to have mastery or all the tools at your disposal. Heck I am sure some non-cisco people could do the labs if given enough time...
Without knowing who you dealt with it's a hard call. Being you know personally people that are cheating through the testing shows probably a good reason why they aren't capable, hiring at $50k for contractors again is probably going to bring out the flunkys.
Again FR vs MPLS...there is a dividing line. It really depends on what one is using and deploying. What one thinks is common may really not be so. The Cisco tests move in those directions. It's preparing one for the most common set of technology.
As far as what you are connecting to...there isn't much you can control anyway if it's not your net. They give you the link and you are at their mercy. As an admin, you'd know if you aren't getting the right performance and then it's a back and forth process.
My doctor analogy is exactly what you are describing. I don't know if you know many great doctors...I have been surrounded by them growing up. Outside of specialties many will need to look things up and double check to be sure. It's not that they can't figure it out, but you aren't usually picking a doctor today hoping he can do that. That said out of med school and prior to residency not many are really doctors yet.
There are many doctors out there that are down right dangerous. Many choose to sell services at the lowest price point or move to countries where they are one step better than someone with no training. Any certified person can fall into that category.
First: A PRI is ISDN. BRIs are still common and in many cases, the best backup available. Learn 'em or die
If I was employing someone, I wouldn't care how much they struggled and strainied to pass some test. I'd wanat someone that is competent and knows what they are doing. How they got to know is not important; it's not my issue.
You're dancing on the doctor analogy. It sucked and does nothing to prove your point. so let's just pass on it.
The CCIE plaque doesn't say"$150,000 CCIE" or "$50,000 CCIE" What they're paid has nothing to do with what they know, or what they went through to learn. We didn't put a gun to their head to work for us, they submitted a resume, interviwed, and accepted the terms.
The Plaque says "Expert" not "Expert at studying at the course material." If you wear the badge, you accept everything that comes with it. If you're nothing more than a good student, FOAD ... I don't need students on my network, I need compatent network engineers.
FWIW
alkemyst
No Lifer
- Feb 13, 2001
- 83,769
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Very FEW CCIE's would fall in that category...also the the CCIE is not the official full title.
There is a 'Routing and Switching" "Voice" etc attached to that.
The doctor analogy is perfect. You just don't want to admit you got what you paid for.
two $50k CCIE's muahahahahaahah. I am sure you verified them as well and they turned up current and not one of the cheaters you know.
Fall into what category? Experts?
The doctor analogy was worthless and off the mark, as explained previously. Sorry you can't see that. If any person of any class of CCIE can't do basic networking, they're worthless, or at least way overpriced.
CCIEs (as a class, proven individuals get what they negotiate, CCIE or not) do not command the rates they used to, especially "common" ones like R&S. The entire market is well down from the old bubble days. Also, since it seems you don't get out much, every market is different, pay rates for different markets are all different, cost-of-living varies from region to region and market to market.
One $50K CCIE was hired (then dismissed), the other failed miserably in the test and interview (passed by many CCNAs) and was never hired. When we had to prompt him through the ARP process and packet flow, we pretty much closed the interview and sent him back to the agency. BTW: many visa-holders are willing to take less pay to get some time on the job, this is not unusual, and ultimately works to their benefit the "foot in the door" so to speak.
You put so much into honoring CCIEs ... they're nothing special. You're not a CCIE, but you've talked to a couple, so you're the great defender? Please. Get a clue.
alkemyst
No Lifer
- Feb 13, 2001
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I have actually talked to more than just a couple. Like said above my brother has been one a LONG time, been on Cisco's authoring team and works for a shop with more cisco expertise than any other. He has quite a few other accolades in the game as well.
There are plenty of MD's out there incapable of basic medicine. It's obvious you think you are right that the analogy is bad.
It's sort of pointless hashing this out with you as you seem to think $50k is a going rate (yet another seems to think $150k is just starting)....
It's clear that you guys go through life in blinders and have a pretty narrow range of experience.
Do you know what contract work means? That doesn't mean they were hired as normal employees, but instead were hired to do a job. A CCIE contractor will adjust the price they charge based on the job. Some jobs require a lot more work than others, and they will charge accordingly (or should).
Oh, and while we are on the subject, a CCIE doesn't mean they know how to run a contracting business. They might have undercharged for their services.
Gonna pull that stick out of your ass yet, or going to keep saying everybody else is wrong?
Get a clue.
CCIE != 6 figure salary
CCIE != knowledge of business (contracting or salary negotiation)
CCIE contract work != $150k+ for every job
alkemyst
No Lifer
- Feb 13, 2001
- 83,769
- 19
- 81
Like I said there are people incapable in all fields. Finding a contractor for $50k a year even in basic programming is pretty hard to do.
The really odd part was the one was dismissed before salary would have truly been discussed. So this guy must have hired three people all CCIE's for $50k?
Anyway, it's clear you will try to be right no matter what facts are out there.
I don't believe a whole bunch from someone that talks about having friends cheating at something and then in the next breath wondering why the fuck they are clueless....go figure hey...
Also being he has so many friends as CCIE's why is it so hard to find them?
$50k for a CCIE MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHaahahAhahahah
seriously.
You're an idiot if you don't believe a CCIE would do CONTRACT work for $50k. That means they are hired for a specific purpose, and not just as a day to day employee.
alkemyst
No Lifer
- Feb 13, 2001
- 83,769
- 19
- 81
it was stated as under $50k actually and we were discussing yearly salary...
I never said taking a part time/partial year contract for $50k would be out of the ordinary.
It's you creating every excuse why I'd be wrong...
'maybe they are just poor business managers' posting here then right?
I never said taking a part time/partial year contract for $50k would be out of the ordinary.
It's you creating every excuse why I'd be wrong...
'maybe they are just poor business managers' posting here then right?
alkemyst
No Lifer
- Feb 13, 2001
- 83,769
- 19
- 81
I have a clue. It's you and the other dudes going in circles on trying to re-define whatever is talked about so I am wrong.
so there are people going for their CCIE with no clue what the market pays?
"Oh let's see, I will spend the next 4-6 months studying 40 hours a week or more, spend probably $10k doing this, and travel to get a certification I don't know WTF pass....Chances are I will have to take it a second time and spend another $2k or so, but what the hell, life is a crapshoot at best anyway."
According to your buddy $140-150k is small potatoes.
Down here a CCIE commands pretty much 90-110k easily, of course these aren't cheaters or 'imports'. They aren't being hired for less than that. CCNA's with experience are entering at $60-65k. A CCNP is looking at starting at around $75k with not a whole bunch of experience to into the six figure range with a lot.
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