Causes of terrorism, at home and abroad?

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Orsorum

Lifer
Dec 26, 2001
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A friend of mine and I were talking tonight, and I thought it interesting some of the thoughts that we observed -

1) The US may not be right in their foreign policy, in their culture, etc... but, we're not going to change, so just root out the terrorists and call it a day. (just a thought I've heard pop up, I don't agree with it)

2) Conspiracy theorists have way too much time on their hands.

3) Reactionary patriotism (jingoism) blinds you to the evils of your own country.

Personally, I think that when we as a people are willing to objectively examine our foreign policy and the true effects it has on different cultures, we will find the answers we have been looking for.
 

Legendary

Diamond Member
Jan 22, 2002
7,019
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Originally posted by: Zakath15
A friend of mine and I were talking tonight, and I thought it interesting some of the thoughts that we observed -

1) The US may not be right in their foreign policy, in their culture, etc... but, we're not going to change, so just root out the terrorists and call it a day. (just a thought I've heard pop up, I don't agree with it)

2) Conspiracy theorists have way too much time on their hands.

3) Reactionary patriotism (jingoism) blinds you to the evils of your own country.

Personally, I think that when we as a people are willing to objectively examine our foreign policy and the true effects it has on different cultures, we will find the answers we have been looking for.

It is foolish (and highly prevalent today) to let the government do its will without objection from a large body of people. Many things have been passed in the fervor of patriotism and "in the interests of national security". We've done away with our liberties by our ignorance.
You're right though. Examination by the NATION (not just the people who aren't so short-sighted) will lead to answers. Unfortunately Joe Average doesn't care about foreign policy. America is not full of bright people, and the jingoism will waver up and down every year the closer we get to 9-11.

See the Ben Franklin quote in my sig to see what I really think.
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
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Originally posted by: Zakath15
Originally posted by: Nefrodite
your vague question demands a generalized answer:p your fault, not mine.

:p

Bah.

Maybe I'm mistakenly thinking everyone is thinking along the same wavelength as me. bin laden's hatred of America has to stem from somewhere, not just because "he's Muslim" or any sort of bullsh!t like that; we used to support him. What have we done to turn him against us? What have we done to turn ourselves into "The Great Satan"?



Why did Hitler hate the Jews and exterminate 6 million of them? Sometimes there is no rational explanation for hate. It is just an evil that must be eliminated from the world.

We did not support Bin Laden. That is a type of misinformation that is being spread by people with an agenda or have not studied what has happened. We supported the mujihadeen, the Afghan freedom fighters in their war against the USSR invasion of their land. Bin laden was a minor functionary of that war.
 

Orsorum

Lifer
Dec 26, 2001
27,631
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Originally posted by: etech

Why did Hitler hate the Jews and exterminate 6 million of them? Sometimes there is no rational explanation for hate. It is just an evil that must be eliminated from the world.

We did not support Bin Laden. That is a type of misinformation that is being spread by people with an agenda or have not studied what has happened. We supported the mujihadeen, the Afghan freedom fighters in their war against the USSR invasion of their land. Bin laden was a minor functionary of that war.

Elaborate.
 

They are just pissed because we are getting Vice City next month and Allah won't let them play.

That may seem like a joke but seriously, that's the whole thing in a nutshell.

Oh yeah, and our chicks are mad hot.
 

shiner

Lifer
Jul 18, 2000
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I think the followng verses from the Koran might have had something to do with it.


Sura 9:5,29,41 ?Slay the idolators [non-Muslims] wherever ye find them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the last Day?. Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah!?

8:59-60 ?Let not the unbelievers think that they can get the better (of the godly): they will never frustrate (them). Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of God and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom God doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of God, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly.?

Sura 9:5 ?And when the sacred months are passed, kill those who join other gods with God wherever ye shall find them; and seize them, besiege them, and lay wait for them with every kind of ambush: but if they shall convert, and observe prayer, and pay the obligatory alms, then let them go their way, for God is Gracious, Merciful.?

Sura 9:29-33 ?Make war upon such of those to whom the Scriptures have been given as believe not in God, or in the last day, and who forbid not that which God and His Apostle have forbidden, and who profess not the profession of the truth, until they pay tribute out of hand, and they be humbled. The Jews say, 'Ezra (Ozair) is a son of God'; and the Christians say, 'The Messiah is a son of God'. Such the sayings in their mouths! They resemble the sayings of the Infidels of old! God do battle with them! How are they misguided!..He it is who hath sent His Apostle with the Guidance and a religion of the truth, that He may make it victorious over every other religion, albeit they who assign partners to God be averse from it.?

Sura 47:4 ?Therefore, when you meet the Unbelievers in fight, smite at their necks; at length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly on them? He lets you fight in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the way of Allah, - He will never let their deeds be lost.? Another English translation says, ?When ye encounter the infidels, strike off their heads till ye have made a great slaughter among them, and of the rest make fast the fetters.?
 

308nato

Platinum Member
Feb 10, 2002
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All this talk of finding out why they want to destroy us and trying to understand the terrorist point of view means absolutely nothing to me. I don't care about them. The cause of 9/11 is as simple as murderous humans plotting and enacting the worst they were capable of for whatever pathetic reason they could find to rationalize their actions. In this case it was what "Allah" required.

If someone murdered your mom, dad, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, cousins, sisters.....would you be wringing your hands to understand the cause and trying to get in touch with the feelings of the attacker ? Sadly enough, your answer is probably yes. My answer would be swift and sure justice/revenge. I would have no qualm about savagely attacking my enemy. Feelings have very little to do with survival.

I'm wondering when the followers of Allah are going to contact me to find out why I don't care if they all fell over dead tomorrow? Doesn't this upset them? Aren't they staying up nights wondering why people like me feel that way? I don't think so.

The cause of 9/11 isn't imporntant to me. What is imporntant is victory over the sick f@cks being bred around the world that want to kill my family and fellow countrymen for being Americans.
 

shiner

Lifer
Jul 18, 2000
17,112
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The cause of 9/11 isn't imporntant to me. What is imporntant is victory over the sick f@cks being bred around the world that want to kill my family and fellow countrymen for being Americans.
Bravo!!!
 

Hammer

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
13,217
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I had a very similar argument with someone over this last night regarding US foreign policy. We ended up just getting angry at each other.

Regardless of how much you blame the US for its policies, I still can't see why you would use that to attempt tp justify the death of innocent civilians. Normal everyday people just doing the job just like anyone else. I had a few people I knew that worked there, thankfully they were all fine, but its make me angry when people say "oh they had it coming to them" etc. :|
 

Orsorum

Lifer
Dec 26, 2001
27,631
5
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Originally posted by: 308nato
All this talk of finding out why they want to destroy us and trying to understand the terrorist point of view means absolutely nothing to me. I don't care about them. The cause of 9/11 is as simple as murderous humans plotting and enacting the worst they were capable of for whatever pathetic reason they could find to rationalize their actions. In this case it was what "Allah" required.

If someone murdered your mom, dad, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, cousins, sisters.....would you be wringing your hands to understand the cause and trying to get in touch with the feelings of the attacker ? Sadly enough, your answer is probably yes. My answer would be swift and sure justice/revenge. I would have no qualm about savagely attacking my enemy. Feelings have very little to do with survival.

I'm wondering when the followers of Allah are going to contact me to find out why I don't care if they all fell over dead tomorrow? Doesn't this upset them? Aren't they staying up nights wondering why people like me feel that way? I don't think so.

The cause of 9/11 isn't imporntant to me. What is imporntant is victory over the sick f@cks being bred around the world that want to kill my family and fellow countrymen for being Americans.

If someone murdered a member of my family, without cause, I would retaliate as fast as is humanly possible - and, yes, with force. I'm in favor of military action, if necessary.

But, I'm also not naive enough to think that military action is all that is necessary, or is all that is appropriate. Force was required, brutal and uncompromising, to 'sway' Hitler. However, education is required to ensure that no more Hitlers are bred.

How do you do that? By being candidly honest with oneself as a nation, and as a people. Have you talked with a German citizen today about their national history? Their honesty and openness regarding their national history leave much to be desired. I respect the German people - as well, I should. As a nation, they've instigated two of the most horrible wars, and some of the most horrible crimes, in the history of mankind. And, as a nation, they have recovered from that.
 

Orsorum

Lifer
Dec 26, 2001
27,631
5
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Originally posted by: hammer09
I had a very similar argument with someone over this last night regarding US foreign policy. We ended up just getting angry at each other.

Regardless of how much you blame the US for its policies, I still can't see why you would use that to attempt tp justify the death of innocent civilians. Normal everyday people just doing the job just like anyone else. I had a few people I knew that worked there, thankfully they were all fine, but its make me angry when people say "oh they had it coming to them" etc. :|

It makes me angry, too. No amount of justification can be made for the actions Osama bin Laden feel are necessary against the United States. None, whatsoever. It's disgusting.

However, are people really naive enough to think that the solution to Osama bin laden is simply to kill him? That reminds me of the efforts the Israelis are taking in Palestine to stop the suicide bombings - rather than examine why the Palestinians are sending reactionary bombers in the first place, they just kill more Palestinians. Seems quite simple, but, hey. Cause and effect apparently isn't as obvious when it applies to Americans.

Kill bin Laden, for all I care. I'd be happier if he were locked up in a jail cell or rotting away in a grave. However, don't be so ignorant as to think that will solve all the world's problems.
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
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No reasonable person attempts to justify the actions of the Sept 11, 2001 hijackers. They certainly had their reasons but everyone's(from OBL to flight school instructors to airlines) acts of commission or omission contributed to the tragedy. US foreign policy respects no sovereign unless respect for that sovereign serves our interests. We do not universally value human life above all other concerns. We do not universally support democracy. We do not universally support market capitalism. We are not the world's greatest hypocrite . . . but we are close.

Fortunately, most world religions give us an out . . . it is never too late to do right. Hate is an emotion of evil and given enough hate and time everyone is susceptible to commiting evil acts. But why not try . . . "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"?
Many of you show so much hatred towards Middle East governments (granted most of you appear to direct your vitriol directly at the people; strange considering most of you don't know any of them) but drive vehicles getting less than 20mpg. Why not build Iran, North Korea, and Iraq's nuclear power plants? The only valid reason would be to build solar, geothermal, and wind instead. Why not support one of the largest neodemocracies in the Middle East (Iran) by staying out of their internal and regional affairs? Khomeni is a dead prick
in his prime
"'War is a blessing for the world and for all nations. It is God who incites men to fight and to kill. The Koran says, "Fight until all corruption and all rebellion have ceased." The wars the Prophet led against the infidels were a blessing for all humanity. Imagine that we soon will win the war.

: That will not be enough, for corruption and resistance to Islam will still exist. The Koran says, "War, war until victory! . . ." The mullahs with corrupt hearts who say that all this is contrary to the teachings of the Koran are unworthy of Islam.

: Thanks to God, our young people are now, to the limits of their means, putting God's commandments into action. They know that to kill the unbelievers is one of man's greatest missions.'


It was December 1984 and he was largely referring to Iraq. He used Islam and the Koran to justify his war with Saddam and all others who didn't meet HIS criteria. His ideology lives on in the aged cleric class of Iran, OBL (maybe), and zealots worldwide from Saudi Arabia to 1600 PA Ave. The elected leader has been waging a pitched battle for the sake of his people and their desire to be true to their religion and true to themselves.

An intelligent superpower would say, "Umm, sorry about overthrowing your previous elected leader and your popular king in favor of our CIA-approved stooge . . . our bad."
Khatami's response, "Umm, yeah the hostage thing was pretty much mob violence supported by that maggot-food Khomeni" (OK, he probably wouldn't use THAT phrase).
Powell: If you keep it on the DL this is an official apology . . .
Khatami: Ditto . . . but the hostages still want payback.
Powell: Keepin it real brother man, keepin' it real.
Khatami: Why don't we settle by giving them frozen assets in the US?
Powell: Fair enough, but arms supplies to Hezbollah and the PLO . . .
Khatami: Suicide bombing has no justification in Islam. I know I have degrees in philosophy and education. But how can we not support our brothers with arms when you support Israel with Apaches?
Powell: True, true . . . let's stick with the easy stuff . . . you people need a revolution!
Khatami: We prefer evolution. Our version of democracy which respects our religion and the rule of law (nonreligious). Get real . . . your courts actually consider money to be speech and that corporations have the same rights as citizens.
Powell: Well, you've got a towel on your head!

Give the Iranian Constitution a read. They love caveats but in principle it's not bad. Articles 1 through 177.

our pattern of behavior in the region
Forget their view of history, you just have to read ours to know we do not respect the ideals we purport to export. PresidentMusharraf our point man in Pakistan . . . the same one tinkering with his country's constitution to fit his regime. At the very least you have to respect him for actually considering the rule of law instead of making much of it up (Ashcroft and other members of the Bush hegemony). The same Musharraf preventing the last legitimately elected leader (Bhutto) from entering the country.

No one is perfect. Every policy is flawed. But rank hypocrisy cannot be defended. The enemy of my enemy is my friend?! Not only was the author an idiot with the faintest grasp of logic but he also didn't have many friends. I'm sure he followed his musing with an astute observation . . . "with friends like this who needs enemies." Marriage of convenience? More BS . . . I challenge anyone to show our "rent-a-regime" foreign policy has served the long-term interests of the US. Furthermore, the State Department's goodwill information campaign will fail b/c 1) we have a history of being FOS and 2) actions speak louder than words. Saddam is a threat to the region and arguably a threat to the world but what about drought, famine, pollution, weapons of minor and mass destruction, criminals with global reach, crimes against humanity, loss of habitat, subjugation of women, access to vaccination, access to clean water, religious persecution. Why put OUR interests at the head of the queue?
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
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Verses from the Qu'ran . . .
Response to Violent Islam perspective
Let us examine the verses in question with these exegetical principles in mind. One of the verses says "put down the polytheists wherever you find them, and capture them and beleaguer them and lie in wait for them at every ambush" (Qur'an 9:5). The immediate context, as Muhammad Asad (The Message Of The Qur'an) points out, is that of a "war in progress" and not a general directive. It was an attempt to motivate Muslims in self-defense.

Muslims were given permission to defend themselves around the time of Prophet Muhammad's migration from Makkah, where he grew up, to the city of Madinah where he spent the rest of his life. This occurred in the 13th year of his 23-year mission.

Robertson, Franklin Graham, and others who cull verses from the Qu'ran to justify their bias against Islam are comparable to hate mongerers or atheists (I'm not equating atheists to hate mongerers) that promulgate excerpts from the Bible or Torah as encompassing the beliefs or depravity of Christians and Jews. The only thing worse than ignorance is compounding ignorance with misinformation.

"Permission is given [to fight] those who have taken up arms against you wrongfully. And verily God [Allah] is well able to give you succor. To those who have been driven forth from their homes for no reason than this that say 'Our Lord is God.' " The Qur'an goes on to add, "Hath not God repelled some men by others, cloisters and churches and synagogues and mosques, wherein the name of God is ever mentioned, would assuredly have been pulled down" (Qur'an 22: 39-42).
Hmm, sounds like someone is equating churches, synagogues, and mosques . . .

"Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but don't transgress limits; for God loves not the transgressor." The verse goes on to say "And fight them on until there is no more oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God; but if they cease let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression" (Qur'an 2: 190-193).

The word Jihad comes from the root Arabic word "Jahd," which means to struggle or to strive. It is understood by piety minded Muslims as a positive, noble and laudatory term. That is how most apply it in their personal, social, political and military lives. The history of the Muslim rulers, on the other hand, gives us examples of those who attempted to sanctify their wars of personal aggrandizement as wars for a noble cause by applying the label Jihad to them. A few even named their war departments as the departments of Jihad. This kind of behavior may be likened to a politician's attempt to wrap him in the flag.

The "holy war" concept, for which many non-Muslims use the word Jihad, is foreign to Islam. Rather, it comes from a concept first used to justify the Crusades by the Christian Church during the middle Ages. The concept of "holy war" may even go back to the time when the emperor Constantine the Great allegedly saw a vision in the sky with the inscription on the cross, "in hoc signo vinces" (in this sign you will be the victor). The Arabic term, as has been pointed out by scholars, for "the holy war" would be al-harab al-muqaddas, which neither appears in the Qur'an or the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad (Hadith). Prophet Muhammad's wars were defensive wars against groups who sought to eradicate Islam and the Muslims.

It is interesting and useful for social scientists or philosophers to study how the meaning and usage of words differ in different communities. Ironically the word "crusade," because of its association with the crusades in the middle ages, should have had a pejorative sense to it and yet the word has acquired an ennobled meaning in the West. This in spite of the fact that the Church itself, along with most historians, acknowledge the injustice of the Crusades and the atrocities done in the name of faith. On the other hand, the word "Jihad" which means for Muslims, striving for the highest possible goal, has acquired the negative connotation of the holy war.



 

josphII

Banned
Nov 24, 2001
1,490
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reading this thread is very distrubing. NO, it does not mattery why 'they' hate us. NO, we are not at fault or caused 9-11 to happen in any way

The fact of the matter is that the US is the only super power left, and the vast majority of our domestic and foreign policies are designed to enhance the US and its citizens. And this is not a unique stance, every other country does the exact same thing. However, the fact remains that other people/countries will not respect us for it, but resent us. and when others say we are disliked because of jealousy, they are 100% correct. we are successful, they are less successful/not successful, period.

and for those that think the us has ANY responsibility in 9-11, well your an idiot
 

Mani

Diamond Member
Aug 9, 2001
4,808
1
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Good posts, BBD.

As for my opinion on the topic, I am not so arrogant as to say I know what these people were thinking when they bombed the WTC/Pentagon. But I do know that not trying to understand their reasons for doing what they did is simply put, stupid. That is NOT to say we should pacify them, or even not mete out punishment where necessary. But if all we do is "retaliate", killing innocents in the process we are doing nothing but treating the symptoms of the sickness rather than the root of it, and in the fallout of our actions we create more OBLs.
 

JellyBaby

Diamond Member
Apr 21, 2000
9,159
1
81
Originally posted by: josphII
reading this thread is very distrubing. NO, it does not mattery why 'they' hate us. NO, we are not at fault or caused 9-11 to happen in any way

The fact of the matter is that the US is the only super power left, and the vast majority of our domestic and foreign policies are designed to enhance the US and its citizens. And this is not a unique stance, every other country does the exact same thing. However, the fact remains that other people/countries will not respect us for it, but resent us. and when others say we are disliked because of jealousy, they are 100% correct. we are successful, they are less successful/not successful, period.

and for those that think the us has ANY responsibility in 9-11, well your an idiot
There was once a British Empire. It no longer exists. There was once a world superpower called the Soviet Union. It no longer exists. There was once a superpower called the United States of America...oops, I get ahead of myself.

The world will tolerate success at the expense of others up until the point it sees the expense part first-hand.

Terrorists caused 9/11 and they should be rooted out and destroyed. However, to turn a blind eye to what creates or may contribute to creating them is simply condeming yourself to an endless cycle of more of the same.
 

Ap0phis

Junior Member
Sep 11, 2002
21
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There is a lot of things from "both" sides that contribute to terrorism, if you wish to simplify the situation into two sides. Something dubya has already done. (yes... I'm one of the guys that hates bush.)

The US has been imposing itself on other nations for decades. That alone lies very close to the root. I don't see anything wrong with exporting US business and globalisation (We'll come back to this one). When you start forcing your way of life onto others, thats where you go wrong. Also none of the times that the US has "lent a hand" was for the good of the world or that country, but because the US had much to gain.

If we concentrate on the mideast, especially saudi arabia. The country from where the majority of the hijackers originated. This country has been THE major US ally in the arab region for years. The reason for the US is obvioulsy oil. The reason for the Saudi gov't is that the US helps them stay where they are. Now, you americans may keep whining that saudi has bad human rights etc. etc. but the US gov't knew this since the beginning and they even turned a blind eye. According to a Newsnight (BBC) report, a number of the hijackers were already filed in FBI docos but were deliberately overlooked because of their Saudi nationality. And ofcourse it is not in the American interest to see a democratically elected gov't in Saudi as the current Royal family is a supporter of the US. If that wasn't reason enough, the general population is NOT supportive and thus a democratic body is not likely to be so "friendly". Otherwise there would've been pressure to slowly change the gov't from the beginning. The US gov't never complained that the Saudi media, until recent years has been totally controlled by the royal family. Its channels like Al Jazeera that lets the general population see what things are really like.

You cannot talk about the mideast without talking about the Israeli & Palestine issue. That needs to be resolved. You may say that Arafat is the root, he is a terrorist, he managed to reject a deal that would've given him 90% of what he wanted. I'll tell you what he wouldn't have got from the deal. The main things the Palestinians want, Thats what. Primarily, the exiled Palestinians would not have been allowed to return to Jerusalem. There wouldn've been no access to the Black Sea (I think thats what its called). The jewish settlements would remain in palestine, with big buffer zones around them. Israeli military will have free access to Palestine. I wouldn't agree to that. This situation needs to be resolved before stability in the region and before the US is likely to regain any respect from the people of the region.

What this shows so far is partial support of other countries and it always happens to be to countries that can offer resources in return. You know Saudi Arabia and Kuwait paid the US for its military actions against Iraq. Well, it was mainly called reperation costs or some other bullsh!t. Now theres talk of further action against Iraq. This time without UN support if necessary. Now this is another major reason why the world is against the US. You don't have to take my word. In the Summit in SA recently Colin Powell (The only guy in the current US admin I don't hate i.e. the only guy who wouldn't kill his mother for extra shares in enron. oops wrong company) was slow clapped and jeered. Then again, he was pretty much saying we do things this way, why the fvck don't you do the same. Now attacking Iraq unilaterally will change the minds of the kids that are currently thinking "well the US seem to have done bad things to US but mum's dying words were - get educated become a doctor - So screw them I'm going to university" to "where do I sign up to this Al Qaeeda thing". There is also an unprecendeted record of the US leaving their former allies to rot, who in turn become the ones fueling the terrorism. Also, I don't buy it when they say weapons of mass destruction blah blah. The main thing is Saudi is not gonna be as co-operative as before, so they need a gov't that would become the new friend of america in the region.

Now, general poverty. The US does give out foreign aide. Most goes to isreal, but other nations see some too. But, the farmers in the US see more internal helpings from the gov't than the poverty stricken third world nations put together. See now we are back to globalisation. The US is only ok with it when its businesses are the ones who'd gain. Otherwise they they put out every single roadblock they have. They even do it with the Steel industry with europe against international regulations etc. etc.



The reasons go on. So what do we do. OK now bear with me this is gonna sound a bit off the mark. The people we need to alienate are the Oil companies, thus the Bush family and the richest 10% in the mideast. Just throw em out. How? you ask. We hyper accelerate the development and increase the funds 100 fold. Despite how it looks, it is still affordable, I saw the figures on this discovery channel program. Iceland is converting its entire public road transport to hydrogen fuel cell based vehicles by mid to late 2003. We, as in the US and UK, could've afforded it and Should have done it years ago. The problem is that tje gov't won't get the same fuel tax as it does with petrol.

Shell won't go bust, they have a fuel cell strategy line up (apparently). So have BP. Who gives a toss about the rest. Western economy goes down a bit, Ten years at the most. Now what does this acheive? It cuts out the US dependance on the middle east. Its a bad thing for the richest population within for the start, but it won't make an ounce of defference for the 50 to 70% earning just about enough to live comfortably. Qatar has a Solar Hydrogen convertion strategy with deals with BMW and Shell and BP I think. They'll be cool. This more than likely to bring about the coup that some of those countries need. Saudi for starters. They'll have to stand on their own feet. We don't want another country like egypt that becomes dependant of the US. But, I think the Egypt thing was pretty well designed by the US.

That still leaves an entire continent and the major part of another. The main problem with Africa is that you cannot have World bank impose all this globalisation friendly restrictions on the proverty striken countries there and not have the decency to follow them your selves. I should say ourselves because countries in europe subsidise their farms to the max as well. Not as much as the US though. and the spare crop gets exported to these third world countries. The farmers there cannot afford to compete with the "spare" stock of the gov't assisted rich farmers of the west. They can barely sell their stock in the local market let alone export any. This kind of hypocracy gets their blood boiling. Then when you jump in to a country like Somalia supporting one War lord over another and land military who might as well be wearing sponsor tags from various Oil companies it drives them over the edge. Now apparantly somalia is supposed to be Al Qaeeda central, even though pre 11 September the people had no clue who bin laden was.

In this region you just have to bite the bullet and be fair. You have to give them the chance to grow, not buy forcing them to buy your genetically modified corn, but by not literally paying your farmers to pretty much buy the crops from the earth with enough financial left overs leaving any need to sell the crop.


Finally you have to open up the media in the US. Currently the advertisers and sponsors have total control over what is seen by the public. The rest is controlled by the gov't. Lately there was a program that was supposed to show the palestinian side of the story. But after talks with some jewish sponsors, the content was changed. And what the hell is it with the "Hollywood 9/11 comittee"? The gov't will financially support production of movies that show the US military in "good light". They'll also give access to Navy carriers etc. That has to change and change big time. I mean watch the media in the UK for a few days and you'll see what open media is. During the Somalia conflict, there was a totally charred body of a child which was in result of some US military bomb. That was censored on all US news because apparantly there is some rule against showing dead bodies like that on the news or something. But it was ok showing the soldiers body being dragged along.


Now thats all for starters. but mainly there has to be change. Change in foreign policy mainly. Not to appease anyone, but to have fairness. If that never comes around. You can kill as many bin ladens you want (actually, you can't even seem to find the one. ha!) there will be more popping up. Unless you wanna go into nuclear genocide mode, you'll never manage to kill or unlawfully imprison enough terrorists or "suspected terrorists" to outnumber the amount taking the stance. But there you go...
 
Aug 23, 2000
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Originally posted by: Zakath15
Originally posted by: Nefrodite
your vague question demands a generalized answer:p your fault, not mine.

:p

Bah.

Maybe I'm mistakenly thinking everyone is thinking along the same wavelength as me. bin laden's hatred of America has to stem from somewhere, not just because "he's Muslim" or any sort of bullsh!t like that; we used to support him. What have we done to turn him against us? What have we done to turn ourselves into "The Great Satan"?

The reason is we stopped supporting him. Once The USSR fell, the Soviets gave up on Afganistan, there for no need for us to give him weapons or money. And after years of fighting that's all he knows. Hatered, and loathing. With the USSR defeated(inm his eyes) He turned towards the country that stood for things he was opposed to US.

 

JellyBaby

Diamond Member
Apr 21, 2000
9,159
1
81
Ap0phis, pretty good post and welcome to the Forums. I'm probably the only one here who read all of it but I agree with just about every word. People here (America) simply don't take time to understand what's actually going on though I'm hopeful that is changing. They want to believe America is just, true, righteous and always right. Unfortunately this has proven not to be the case and you pointed out some examples. Doesn't mean we suck wholesale, just that a lot of tweaking is in order.
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
0
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Originally posted by: Zakath15
Originally posted by: etech

Why did Hitler hate the Jews and exterminate 6 million of them? Sometimes there is no rational explanation for hate. It is just an evil that must be eliminated from the world.

We did not support Bin Laden. That is a type of misinformation that is being spread by people with an agenda or have not studied what has happened. We supported the mujihadeen, the Afghan freedom fighters in their war against the USSR invasion of their land. Bin laden was a minor functionary of that war.

Elaborate.

We supported the local Afghans in their fight agains the USSR. OBL as a Saudi was just a minor soldier in that war. He of course had a large amount of money so some people just because of that made his role larger than it really was. To say the US was supporting bin Laden is incorrect and just another of the ways that the truth is distorted.
Another one of those lovely distortions. When the war was over we got the hell out of there. If we hadn't the US would have been accused of hegemony and other words of that type by those that only see in US actions what they want to see and what fits their agenda.

Now please address these two questions. Feel free to elaborate.
"Why did Hitler hate the Jew and exterminate 6 million of them?" Is there always a logical or rational reason for hate of another people or culture?


Ap0phis
Welcome to the forum. I won't be around here long, but you brought up some common misconceptions that should be addressed.

"The US has been imposing itself on other nations for decades."

Yes, we imposed our will on Japan and Germany in WWII. We did our best to help the Koreans during that conflict. Would you care to wager how many South Koreans would rather be living in North Korea right now? I won't say that every foriegn policy decision by the US has worked out the way it was intended to. I will say that taking those decisions out of context makes it very easy to distort what the true aim and purpose of the decsions was. That part is always left out of the discussion by certain groups.

"When you start forcing your way of life onto others, thats where you go wrong. "

They really need a rolling eyes icon on this board. The US is not forcing our way of life on other countries though a few of them could certainly benefit from some of our ideals. If you want to talk about forcing a way of life on another people let's discuss the people in Nigeria being forced to live under Sharia when they are not Muslim.


"Also none of the times that the US has "lent a hand" was for the good of the world or that country, but because the US had much to gain."

Tell me what country does something for another country that is detrimental to it. Every country will do things because it has something to gain by it. Wake up and smell the roses boy. Having said that I'm not sure what the US has gained by billion of dollars in humanitarian aid it has sent overseas but I'm sure that someone, somewhere thought we would gain something by it.

The terrorists of Al-Queda don't care about the Palestinians. Most of the Arab wouldn't care about the Palestinians if it wasn't drumed into them by their govenment controlled media. The Arab leaders care about the Palestinians because they can use them to distact their populace from the polices they are making. End of that story.

Ok, now you get onto the big bad bussiness. I'll tell you a secret. Business are run by people, business hires and employs people. We could live in an agrian society without businesses but I wouldn't want to.


Ap0phis, let me take a few guesses and you tell me how close I am. You are young, probably in your early twenties. You go to college and have lots of liberal professors. You have never really had to work hard for a living. You are still idealistic and believe that if people would just get along with each other the world would be a better place. You really believe many of the conspriacy theories you see on the web.
It's ok though, someday you will learn about the real world and put most of that behind you.

edit, I forgot to add. I won't be back to address this thread. I have a strange quirk about not spending a lot of time at a place where certain people ban some who break rules and reward others that are their friends for breaking the same rules. I'll see you around the web.
 

PistachioByAzul

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,132
0
71
Ap0phis, nice post. Another thing that needs to happen is campaign finance reform, ie. getting special interest $$$ out of the pockets of politicians.

etech that apologistic attitude is exactly why the USA will be the next fallen empire. You brought up Korea out of nowhere, but you didn't touch on our policies in Africa, the Middle East, and Central America among other places.

A Coca Cola bottling plant is drying up village water supplies in India. Do you want to follow the money trails on that one? We are forcing our business and our way of life on others.
 

Orsorum

Lifer
Dec 26, 2001
27,631
5
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Originally posted by: JellyBaby
Ap0phis, pretty good post and welcome to the Forums. I'm probably the only one here who read all of it but I agree with just about every word. People here (America) simply don't take time to understand what's actually going on though I'm hopeful that is changing. They want to believe America is just, true, righteous and always right. Unfortunately this has proven not to be the case and you pointed out some examples. Doesn't mean we suck wholesale, just that a lot of tweaking is in order.

I agree, that was one of the most intelligent posts I've seen in this thread - I'd like to see more responses like yours. :)
 

JellyBaby

Diamond Member
Apr 21, 2000
9,159
1
81
agree, that was one of the most intelligent posts I've seen in this thread - I'd like to see more responses like yours
Thanks. I do my best my I'm only average. There are better/stronger/faster intellects on this board...you just saw one pop in and out.

etech is right in that often the push to initiate a foreign policy is an honest attempt to make the world a better place for us and our neighbors. But not always, and less so in recent times. IMO etech's politically savvy generation was probably the last good one.

With the amounts of money and power our government can wield today added to the fact special interests are dictating things behind the scenes, I can no longer assume the given reasons for doing something abroad is to benefit anyone except for a select few. There is often a dual purpose to our foreign policy, one that sounds great another the works differently in reality.
 

Ap0phis

Junior Member
Sep 11, 2002
21
0
0
Late 20s actually. No, I don't know or remember the political opinions of any of my lecturers. But, yes, I am liberal in my attitudes. Still,let me tell you I am not naive in what I believe. I've worked, travelled etc. etc. I've seen how different people live in various parts of the world. And when I travel, I don't go to tourist destinations. That is just pointless. So, I do know what I'm talking about. I just believe that for us to get richer, others need not get poorer.

You say no country ever made a foreign policy that is detrimental to itself. No country need do this. The US mainly has a foreign policy that totally exploits the countries on the other end. I'm just saying it has to stop doing that. I'm not saying it has to take on a policy that actively damages the economy. Of course the robber will be worse off if he stops robbing people, doesn't mean he has to starve to death. He can engage in a trade that benifits himself and the other trader. He just has to accept its not gonna be as profitable as robbery. Go back to my previous post and read the part about the farmers.


EDIT: The 'late 20s' bit describes my age btw, in response to someones post.