Causes of terrorism, at home and abroad?

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Aug 10, 2001
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Originally posted by: EngineNr9
*Vespasian edits out the line in which he says he was just starting to agree with EngineNr9 on some issues*

:p
Your response made me think that maybe I don't agree with you on much of anything. :)

But seriously, I agree with you insofar as I don't believe you can defeat terrorism with just violence. However, I do believe that retaliatory violence is sometimes necessary.
 

Palek

Senior member
Jun 20, 2001
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First off, I must say I am not American. This might make some people think I am not qualified to contribute to this topic, but if you are one of them, you should stop that train of thought right away and realize that you are doing exactly what Zakath15 is asking you not to. You are dismissing outside opinions and views, you are too lazy to give me the benefit of the doubt, you are failing to acknowledge that anything outside the US matters.

Okay, with that out of the way, I also wanted to add that I do not hate Americans and their land, but I am most of the time frustrated with the level of ignorance and narrow-mindedness the average US citizen displays. Therefore I am more than pleased to see Zakath15 make such an honest effort to get to the root of this issue, to invest some time and energy into thinking through it all with a clear mind, taking into consideration as many variables as humanly possible.

As I read through this thread I had idea after idea pop up in my mind, and I am already frustrated with myself, knowing there is no way I will manage to sum up all those ideas cohesively, in an easily digestible form... But I will give it a shot anyway.

First of all, true democracy and true capitalism do not exist, they cannot exist in this world. They are noble concepts originally intended to give everyone an equal chance at life, but human nature corrupts, mutates these ideas to serve itself, just as it does with anything else. Socialism - wouldn't it be beautiful if it really was possible? Imagine something like Star Trek. However, Star Trek and socialism are only imaginable in a utopian world where people would actually put others before themselves. Would you do that? Maybe, there is a slight chance, but would the rest of the world be willing to do that? I think not. To use the Star Trek analogy, I think that the real world would have lots of Ceskas and a few suffering, struggling Janeways. Socialism failed because of the few cunning individuals who abused their power to squeeze out as much of the system for themselves as possible before they completely busted it. For another extreme example of how human nature can pervert ideas, concepts to serve its own agenda, I just give you one word: televangelists. Just how many of them use the name of Jesus to con people out of their money?

Capitalism, fair competition, right. Who can say without making complete idiots out of themselves that capitalism in its current form gives all businesses equal chances? People on this board should be acutely aware of the situation in the software business, and how it is anything but fair. Okay, I admit, I know squat about economics, but I sure think that true capitalism should not allow the big business to kill off competition through blatant threats that equal to blackmail. I also think that innovation should not be stifled but encouraged. Capitalism, free competition would only work if strict trade laws were in place that were enforced to the last dot, and if politicians formed these laws and regulations without any hint of bias, with utter and complete objectivity.

But you see, that is also impossible, because Americans live in a democracy, where the people choose their leaders. Why is this a problem? Because democratic leaders have to represent the opinions of their people, and many of those people are too narrow-minded to see past their own petty little issues and make sacrifices for the greater good. If the people feel that their leaders do not do their job well, they will not think twice about replacing them by someone more suitable for the job. The problem is, a politician in our world does his/her job well when their most powerful supporter's needs are met, not when they make the wisest and most educated decision, in fact, sometimes the two happen to be the complete opposite. And if a politician "betrays" his/her most influential patrons, he/she might as well kiss that political career good-bye.

While I do not - and have no grounds to - doubt that George W. Bush is a capable leader, I just want to throw this idea in. And please do not flame me for this, do not label me a conspiration theorist, I am merely thinking through some ideas I came across. Is it conincidental that Bush happens to come from the land of oil, and that quite a few people in his administration and many of his deep-pocketed supporters are in the oil business? And what is the most sought-after natural resource right now in our time? Yes, oil. Remember, I am still not saying that Bush attacked Afghanistan for oil. All I am saying that the oil lobbyists are extremely rich and equally powerful in the US, and they have a heavy influence on the way laws and policies are formed in America.

However, their clutches extend beyond the realm of politics, to scientific research and discovery. We all know that alternative power sources exist and could be further investigated as replacements for fossil fuel, yet we continue to burn our petrol with glee. We do not care that we could be running our cars on water or who knows what if the oil industry did decide to put scientific progress on hold for about a century to squeeze every last penny out of us, until they run out of oil. In the meantime they are hard at work extending their monopoly to the next alternative power source they are secretly developing. Yeah, I know, conspiracy theory, pure speculation, but is it really?

Anyway, my point with this was going to be this: what do you think would happen if Bush suddenly decided to urge the scientific community to focus their research on alternative energy sources? Would it be foolish? I do not think so. I think this is an issue of pressing importance. Yet it will not happen, because the oil companies would be VERY-VERY upset. Bush suddenly would not be so popular anymore. His old friends would suddenly be digging up all the dirt they can find to discredit, incriminate, politically annihilate him. He might make it through his 4 years and then disappear (he certainly would not be running again for presidency, he would not have anyone to support his pricey campaign), or maybe he would not survive even that long. The real powers behind this masquerade of democracy would find themselves someone else to play "president" for them.

That probably sounds very offensive as it is, so I will tone it down a little. I am not saying that American democracy does not work, or that the US president is a marionette with its strings in the hands of the BAD OIL PEOPLE. What I am saying is that President Bush has to do his best at governing his nation with wisdom and AT THE SAME TIME pleasing his important supporters, or else he would not be in the presidential seat for long. His values, his standards have to be compromised. He cannot always make completely objective and morally sound decisions. Sometimes he even has to play a little dirty to please his close "friends" or risk turning them into vicious enemies. Therefore democracy becomes corrupted, and so does capitalism. Imagine what will happen when information becomes the most precious resource we have. Microsoft will take the place of the oil lobbyists. Or has it done that already? Why is it that in the midst of all the legal attacks that Microsoft has to endure, they seem unmoved, even unharmed, untouched? Is capitalism failing? Is democracy failing? Are they both failing?

Here's something else. Somebody here mentioned that if America stopped being so active in the international arena, someone else would take their place, and the US would not be number one anymore. Well, something along these lines anyway.

My question is: Why are you so obsessed with being number one? Does the US have to have the final/biggest say, the most influence in every single international issue, whether that be political or financial? What is so wrong with just not getting involved at all? If two nations decide to kill each other off, why does the US have to get involved at all? Why not just completely withdraw from both politically and financially, so the US has nothing to do whatsoever with that conflict? No blood on their hands, noone to get angry with them. I am not saying this is the right thing to do, merely asking a question. Like others said before, it would be a far better idea to set up an international task force to tackle conflicts where human rights are trampled upon. But no, the US has to be the gun of the "civilized" world, because they get to exert the greatest influence on the world that way, they can hand-pick governments and get hot deals. But also because of that, they are also constantly at the receiving end when the enemies of the western world strike back.

And whoever said that taking a neutral stance regarding international issues was isolationalism? Look at Switzerland. I tell you, they have some very smart people running that country. Even Hitler did not touch them. Yet they are far from isolated, far from ignorant. Yes, I know, some will say, America cannot quite do that considering it is the most powerful nation in the world. But really, why can't they? What would be so wrong with keeping your hands off potential problem areas and just peacefully trading with the rest of the Western world?

Just my thoughts. Nothing more. Just trying to get more people to think for themselves.
 

Hooobi

Golden Member
Jan 26, 2001
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Well... the only part of this thread that I've read is the title, but I wanted to share my opinion anyway...

I think the reason such things happen is because... we meddle.

If we weren't getting involved in other countries' business all over the globe, I'm pretty sure there would be a lot less resentment towards the U.S.

After all, who are we to think that everyone else should conform to our notions of right and wrong? I'm pretty sure that if there's a higher being... that's his job, and I don't remember him deputizing us...

Besides, it would make for more entertaining news to watch things play out naturally instead of imposing our rules on everyone else's games.
 

Palek

Senior member
Jun 20, 2001
937
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I think my post above needs a little summing up and some further clarification. What I was trying to say is:

In an ideal world, capitalism allows companies to explore legal avenues for increasing their revenues. Corporations do not exert any influence on the lawmakers of their country for their own financial benefits. Governments intervene in international affairs with the sole purpose of bringing order to disorder and upholding basic human rights. Governments also share responsibilities in the international playground.

In the real world, capitalists increase profits by all means possible. They exert influence on their governments to form laws and policies that will open up new sources of revenue. Governments will meddle in international affairs with the not-so-hidden agenda of opening up a new market for their corporations and gaining access to elusive natural resources. Governments will try to set foot first on these new lands of opportunity in hopes of getting the biggest slice of the pie for their poor starving little capitalists.

This is not an issue with the US, mind you. It is a problem with the world in general. The US simply happens to be the largest democratic/capitalist nation in the world, therefore they also have the largest corporations that need to be fed. Rest assured that the United Nations of Europe will be fighting the dirty fight with America to knock them out of some hot deals. In my mind, I cannot see how the current situation will ever change, unless the change is for the worse. It's just the way it is. Pessimistic? Yes. Realistic? Oh yes.

Hope that cleared things up.
 

therock911

Senior member
May 5, 2002
267
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I think I might be able to tell you Americans a few things.
I myself am Canadian.
We see things in kind of a different view from the Americans. While reading this post, remember I have nothing against America myself, I have lived there for 6 years, before moving back to Canada, so I know how life is in both countries. Anyways to get back on track, about why Al queda and all these others people who have a death wish hate America is because basically they feel threatened by the American influence. In reality America has a impact on all of the countries around the world, especially Canada and England which fortuntley have a great realationship with America. Basically you guys are doing nothing wrong, just helping your country and using your power in the right places. America knows exactly how much power it has, and it uses it quite well I must say. Anyways what these smaller countries such as Iraq, Iran, Afganistan (was) , and even Pakistan, North Korea (I believe) , and many other countries are afraid of is having too much American culture into their country. It would disrupt the way things are being done there right now. It would probably open up the eyes of the public and show them how life can be. But what the government and people like bin laden (he doesnt deserve capital letters) try and do before too much of an American influence comes into their country is try and make the public get a bad image of America so that when American 'propoganda' (for lack of a better word) starts to get into their country, they in general would remember what they have been told about the states, would begin to think its all lies, and would hate America even more. So in essence war is enevitable, because as long as there are people like osama bin laden, there would always be follwers and hatred against America. So there is really nothing America can do, except cease to exist, but without America, no country can survive, in essence, America gives is the reason that some of these small countries are alive. This is because America provided them with a lot of ammunition, and money (for oil) and have given a lot of things to these countries. What these people are trying to do is 'bite the hand that feeds them'. To be a successful country as America, countries have to reach out to other countries and have some influence on them , other wise , if they have no positive impact on other countries, they themself would not be successful, because they would not make immigrants want to come and open businesses, or work for their country. America has done everthing right, its those countries and people that feel threatened from westernism, that start wars, and the only way to stop war is......... well, to some how show the people of those countries that America is not out to get them, or take away their culture, but the only way that can be done, is if there are no people like bin laden. So as long as there are people who are afraid of change, there will be war.

I'm open to any critism you may have on this 'article', feel free to point out any things I may be wrong on, or how you feel about what I wrote. Ohh and do be too harsh on me, i'm only 16 :)
 

Orsorum

Lifer
Dec 26, 2001
27,631
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Palek, Hooobi and therock... thanks for your input... :) It's nice to get viewpoints and ideas from people who don't live in America.

One thing that I have been guilty of, for most of my life... extreme ethno- centricity (think that's the right word)... all throughout my childhood and teenage years, I found myself ignoring the issues that concerned other countries... after all, what does it matter? I live in America, we can never be affected like these other countries. Besides, we're so big and strong, no one could ever have a substantial negative impact upon our country.

And, yet... in the last few years, that facade has been slowly stripped away. Not just from September 11th, but being on a college campus, educating myself more in the matters of politics and international relations... realizing exactly how good Americans have it, how much we take for granted, and how arrogant we truly are. To claim that "everyone else is just jealous" is pure idiocy, arrogance at its most immature state - we are not merely some altruistic, moral peacekeeper in the world around us. We are guided by our own selfish interests (as it should be), and we f*ck up... more than the average American realizes. Did any Americans really give a second thought to the thousands of Iraqi soldiers killed in Desert Storm? To their families? Not many... because our soldiers' lives were all that mattered. Let Hussein deal with his own.

And, yet, because of our ignorance and our inability to eradicate the Middle East of a power-hungry, immoral leader, the people of Iraq are suffering... out of that suffering has grown more hatred towards the US, more support for al queda and the terrible rationale that guides it. Why has al queda gained so much support in the Middle East? Dare I say, because they are the only ones who have taken the action necessary to make the US take a step back in self-examination?

Just some ramblings, I'm going back to studying for now.
 

Chronic321

Member
May 31, 2002
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In response to Nefrodite's comments, Israel is not a democracy. How can nation maintain an every growing Jewish majority in an area that is 99% Muslim? Zionism, or the intentional exclusion of non-Jewish peoples, in the case the Palestinians. Suicide bombings occur because the zionists want them to occur by continuing setttlements on non mandated land, these bombings allow Israel justification for occupying more land.

End occupation - End bombings

Also, whether we admit or not suicide bombings work, and are the only effective means of defense by the Palestinians. As we saw with Lebanon these continous bombings will hopefully show Israel that its aggression will not be tolerated. If the United States would supply the Palestinians with effective means to attack Israeli soldiers (Fighter Jets, M1A Tiger Tanks, etc...) then the Palestinians would wage a traditional war. However, to avoid war and any more death America can simply stand up for democracy, freedom, and equality. Just tell Israel no, we will not stand for this evil. And at first econimically, and later if needed using military force to return Israel to its boundries. We must remember, Israel was a country made out of sympathy for the Jewish people, Unfortunatley, Israel has show us that as it exists today under Jewish rule it cannnot function with restraint, thus sooner or later an Arab rule must be imposed and the Jewish people must live under Arab rule as this is what democracy would dictate.

The number of Iraqi children dying (5 million) is UN produced. The Oil for Food program is not adequete as we have seen. American must Join France, Russia, and China in lifting these sanctions.

Turkey is the worst example of a Muslim country, a nation which has lost all religious freedom. In Turkey the women is not allowed to wear Hijab (covering of the head) in Univesities.

Anyways, my views are extreme and will probabbly never be fullfilled, it is unfortunate that the Jewish lobby has such incredible influence in our political policies. Hopefully, myself and other young American Muslims will become political forces in future America.
 

Nefrodite

Banned
Feb 15, 2001
7,931
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Israel is not a democracy. How can nation maintain an every growing Jewish majority in an area that is 99% Muslim? Zionism, or the intentional exclusion of non-Jewish peoples, in the case the Palestinians. Suicide bombings occur because the zionists want them to occur by continuing setttlements on non mandated land, these bombings allow Israel justification for occupying more land.

it is a democracy as the citizens are allowed to vote. whether a country wants to regulate its population through immigration has nothing to do with democracy. otherwise the US should simply open its borders and just let the people of south america just rush in, i mean why not right? :p




End occupation - End bombings

right, and give in to terrorism. if i kidnap someone and make demands, you could make the same argument. just let him have what he wants, it ends it, simple as that:p thats not the real world, it only encourages such behavior. a better solution is end violence, then you can reach a political solution. i'm sure ghandi and dr king resorted to violence. u know.. ghandi stood up and said i'm going to bomb u british asses until u meet my demands. ... right... :p such is like rewarding the behavior of rotten children.


Also, whether we admit or not suicide bombings work, and are the only effective means of defense
by the Palestinians.


as i said above, its not the only means they had. not to mention the israelis could also just go in and slaughter them all as that would also be an effective means of defense.


As we saw with Lebanon these continous bombings will hopefully show Israel that its aggression will not be tolerated. If the United States would supply the Palestinians with effective means to attack Israeli soldiers (Fighter Jets, M1A Tiger Tanks, etc...) then the Palestinians would wage a traditional war. However, to avoid war and any more death America can simply stand up for democracy, freedom, and equality. Just tell Israel no, we will not stand for this evil. And at first econimically, and later if needed using military force to return Israel to its boundries. We must remember, Israel was a country made out of sympathy for the Jewish people, Unfortunatley, Israel has show us that as it exists today under Jewish rule it cannnot function with restraint, thus sooner or later an Arab rule must be imposed and the Jewish people must live under Arab rule as this is what democracy would dictate.


and i'm sure its our job to have armed the taliban as that wasn't a fair fight at all. someone should have given the Taliban nuclear ICBM's, a couple carriers and b2's so they could effectively defend afganistan against american forces.





The number of Iraqi children dying (5 million) is UN produced. The Oil for Food program is not adequete as we have seen. American must Join France, Russia, and China in lifting these sanctions.

i'm not sure i trust those numbers, and the amount of aid/oil sold should be adequet. if it isn't, then its probably due to saddamn funneling off funds to pay for his weapons programs. so ... we must increase the amount of oil he can sell so he can funnel more off to weapons projects so he can ensure children still die and he can ask the UN for even less restrictions.


Turkey is the worst example of a Muslim country, a nation which has lost all religious freedom. In Turkey the women is not allowed to wear Hijab (covering of the head) in Univesities.


worst example? you msut be kidding. not being able to wear a hijab is a small price to pay. their women have most or all the rights of a western woman. women in the other countries of the middle east are nothing but chattle. women in saudi arabia can't even drive cars. even with its slightly anti religious policies, turkey is head and shoulders above the other arab states.

Anyways, my views are extreme and will probabbly never be fullfilled, it is unfortunate that the Jewish lobby has such incredible influence in our political policies. Hopefully, myself and other young American Muslims will become political forces in future America.


ah, the giant jewish conspiaracy:p i see.
 

Chronic321

Member
May 31, 2002
137
0
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Ok, I just wanted to test the opinions. Anyways, my stances are not that extreme all I want is America to act American in the foreign world. Plain and simple, don't support Israel. At this point the country cannot be eliminated, however we should force them to stay within their borders, at the same time continue to condemn terrorism but make it clear to Israel that we will not stop the terrorism (Just as we do to Iraq, we did in Cuba, during the cold war, etc...) until Israel begins to reform is policies. And again, all I want is safety and security in my home. There is no freaken Jewish consipiracy, I laugh when my cousins tell me "Not a single jew was in the trade center on 9/11," Bin Laden attacked us because he has a personal vendetta, this has nothing to do with Islam. People support Bin Laden because the fact is Bin Laden does have some legitmate claims. If we change our policies to be more neutral than we would have done more than achieve security in our own home, but we would have changed the world. Lets get rid of this oppresive super power stigma that is attached to us. Support the removal of the veto ability in the UN and along with it this absurd perment security council member idea.
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
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therock911

I think you are a very wise and astute person. That you are only 16 makes it only more impressive.

Anyways what these smaller countries such as Iraq, Iran, Afganistan (was) , and even Pakistan, North Korea (I believe) , and many other countries are afraid of is having too much American culture into their country. It would disrupt the way things are being done there right now. It would probably open up the eyes of the public and show them how life can be. But what the government and people like bin laden (he doesnt deserve capital letters) try and do before too much of an American influence comes into their country is try and make the public get a bad image of America so that when American 'propoganda' (for lack of a better word) starts to get into their country, they in general would remember what they have been told about the states, would begin to think its all lies, and would hate America even more. So in essence war is enevitable, because as long as there are people like osama bin laden, there would always be follwers and hatred against America.

I agree that the true reason OBL and others like him hate and fear the US enough to attack it is more because the US culture is overwhelming their culture. They see their young people drinking Cokes and listening to Britney Spears. They see their young people turning away from the old ways and turning towards Western culture and it frightens them. Their culture and society is disappearing. This is not by any design or motive of the US but they see it as an attack.
There could have been only one reason for the attacks on 9/11. The people behind the attacks wanted to start a war between the West and the Muslims. Thankfully they have not succeeded. The US is not the Great Satan that they would have you believe. I will say that not every foreign policy move of the past has worked out as planned but I will say the evil intentions that some ascribe to those failures is wrong.


therock911
My only suggestion would be to break your writing into more paragraphs. It makes it easier to read.
 

therock911

Senior member
May 5, 2002
267
0
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Originally posted by: etech
therock911

I think you are a very wise and astute person. That you are only 16 makes it only more impressive.

Anyways what these smaller countries such as Iraq, Iran, Afganistan (was) , and even Pakistan, North Korea (I believe) , and many other countries are afraid of is having too much American culture into their country. It would disrupt the way things are being done there right now. It would probably open up the eyes of the public and show them how life can be. But what the government and people like bin laden (he doesnt deserve capital letters) try and do before too much of an American influence comes into their country is try and make the public get a bad image of America so that when American 'propoganda' (for lack of a better word) starts to get into their country, they in general would remember what they have been told about the states, would begin to think its all lies, and would hate America even more. So in essence war is enevitable, because as long as there are people like osama bin laden, there would always be follwers and hatred against America.

I agree that the true reason OBL and others like him hate and fear the US enough to attack it is more because the US culture is overwhelming their culture. They see their young people drinking Cokes and listening to Britney Spears. They see their young people turning away from the old ways and turning towards Western culture and it frightens them. Their culture and society is disappearing. This is not by any design or motive of the US but they see it as an attack.
There could have been only one reason for the attacks on 9/11. The people behind the attacks wanted to start a war between the West and the Muslims. Thankfully they have not succeeded. The US is not the Great Satan that they would have you believe. I will say that not every foreign policy move of the past has worked out as planned but I will say the evil intentions that some ascribe to those failures is wrong.


therock911
My only suggestion would be to break your writing into more paragraphs. It makes it easier to read.

Hey thanks for the great feedback. Next time i'll remember to brak my writing into more paragraphs. Thanks.
 

Balthazar

Golden Member
Apr 16, 2000
1,834
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This entire thread is useless.
First off, how are we to discuss rationally what was done by the most irrational of people?
Second, if you REALLY read up on things you would likely have a different view than you do now.
On the one hand you have one side who hates you because you intervene. Thats understandable sometimes, but also you gotta take into account that sometimes, yes, we evil americans do things for the best interest of OUR country....for shame. Yes we protect oil-bearing countries, because without oil you, me, and most of the rest of us would be screwed....imagine not being able to go to work because you live 15 miles away, a trip that took no-time before, now takes forever.

Then you have the other side, who hates us because we WONT get involved. And on more than one occassion it's come up where each side of the same conflict has hated us for exactly these reasons.

The world wants our money, our aide, and our protection. But can't resist the urge to blast us at any chance they get.
How many of these so called allies of ours talk trash about us, how many of them would really fare so well without us?

Look at Russia. How many billions have we given them? Yet they still have a lions share of anti-us sentiment.

As a final note I would like to say that by and large I would not miss the majority of the arab countries out there.
If we could just jettison their god-forsaken little sand dune out into space I wouldn't be terribly depressed.
VERY few worthwhile inventions or advancements for the good of mankind come from that region, and most that DO happen to be in that little niche where Isreal sits.

A hard fought battle for their land and I think they should damned well be allowed to kick the quatters off.

Sorry if I offended anyone, I am not racist by any means, but my biggest thing is I am just getting so damn tired of PC nazi's lording over everyone so that they cannot say/do what they wish.

If all 19 of the hijackers were american, I'd be freaking out, more so because the quantity of white travelers would make it impossible to single out someone as suspect, if they were all black, hell yes put a focus on them, if they were all asian, same deal goes, and on and on.
If you think that's racist then consider the consequences of NOT double checking. That's not saying "all arabic people are hijackers", not in the least, it simply saying "hey look, theres a trend here, should we ignore it for the sake of being PC? or should we take a small amount of time/hassle and check it out?".

Seems pretty simple to me, but then again I'm not a PC Nazi either so who knows....
 

Balthazar

Golden Member
Apr 16, 2000
1,834
0
0
Oh and another thing.
The next time you hear about "american greed" why don't you look over there and see how their wealth is divided.

It ALL goes to a few ruling parties and the rest of the people live in destitude.
 

Hamburgerpimp

Diamond Member
Aug 15, 2000
7,464
1
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From BBC November 6, 2001

MICHAEL SPRINGMAN:

"In Saudi Arabia I was repeatedly ordered by high level State Dept officials to issue visas to unqualified applicants. These were, essentially, people who had no ties either to Saudi Arabia or to their own country. I complained bitterly at the time there. I returned to the US, I complained to the State Dept here, to the General Accounting Office, to the Bureau of Diplomatic Security and to the Inspector General's office. I was met with silence."


There is a hidden agenda at the very highest levels of our government.
 

UDT89

Diamond Member
Jul 31, 2001
4,529
0
76
in response to the first reply to this thread, i have a one-way plane ticket for you whenever you are ready
 

JellyBaby

Diamond Member
Apr 21, 2000
9,159
1
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There is a hidden agenda at the very highest levels of our government.
That or the boneheads are putting politics above national security. Most of the 9/11 attackers entered the country using unchecked visa loopholes like this one. Yet, nearly one year later, the loopholes have not been closed.

This is outrageous! Now the feds want to spend $40 billion/year of our money to create a new Department of Homeland Security. Why not spend $0.0 and close the Saudi Arabi (and other) visa loopholes? Seems obvious that would be a great help. They haven't done it because the Saudis object. That tells me exactly where they prioritize American citizens in the grand scheme of things.
 

Hamburgerpimp

Diamond Member
Aug 15, 2000
7,464
1
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Islamic terrorists are mere pawns in a far more sinister plot including U.S.'s highest officials to establish global socialist police state.
 

Ornery

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
20,022
17
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Vespasian - "Would love have prevented Hitler from killing 6 million Jews?"

I don't know about love, but this brings up a good point.

Causes of the Holocaust...

Causes of September 11th and related incidents...

What did the Jews do to cause the Holocaust? How could they have prevented it?

What did the USA do to cause September 11th and other related incidents? How could we have prevented it?

What did Sharon Tate do to provoke Manson? What did Nicole Brown Simpson do to provoke OJ? What could they have done to prevent it?

I hope the answer to these questions will prevent you from posing such a lame topic question again! :frown:
 

Orsorum

Lifer
Dec 26, 2001
27,631
5
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Originally posted by: Ornery
Vespasian - "Would love have prevented Hitler from killing 6 million Jews?"

I don't know about love, but this brings up a good point.

Causes of the Holocaust...

Causes of September 11th and related incidents...

What did the Jews do to cause the Holocaust? How could they have prevented it?

What did the USA do to cause September 11th and other related incidents? How could we have prevented it?

Causes of WWII?

Allies' collective mishandling of Germany's fate after WWI... appeasement of their advances, etc., later on. Short answer in lieu of a long one.

It's not, again, nearly as simply as labeling Hitler a madman. Was he? Of course. He was a sociopath the likes of which the world rarely sees. However, his influence and rise to power was partly enabled by the League of Nations' mistakes.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,873
6,409
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I can't provide a link, but a few days back, a report on CBC News investigated how Al Queda recruited Saudi Arabian members. It seems that the Saudi Arabian government is not very popular with many of it's citizens. The Saudi leaders are seen as corrupt and there is a desire to replace the government, but there's a catch, the Saudi government is propped up with US support.

This is where Al Queda comes in. It offers the disgruntled Saudi's a solution, a plan to remove the US's support for the current Saudi government. Once that support is lost, then a revolution can occur within Saudi Arabia. Al Queda, and their methods, probably won't succeed, but this shows that at least amongst many of Al Queda's members, this is not about Muslim vs Christian or some other simplistic view many on this board try to believe. For many it's a strategic move, remove the obstacle that makes reform possible.

It seems to me, assuming that Saudi Al Queda members are altruistic to the cause of political reform, that Al Queda and other groups will continue to have new members, support, and willingness to attack the US as long as unpopular governments are supported by the US.
 

Ornery

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
20,022
17
81
Lame sidestep there. What could the Jews do to prevent the Holocaust? What could Sharon Tate have done to prevent being butchered? How about Nicole Brown? What could Paula Jones have done to prevent being exposed to Willy's willy?

Blaming the victim after an assault is ludicrous, just like the premise of this topic! :frown:
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
"The vast majority of American people may be peaceful, but our government is not. And it is, as always, the people who pay the price."