Catch a killer in a war zone... get brought up on assault charges

[JohnOfSheffield]

I imagine it is hard to 'cold blooded' kill someone especially if you're an elite warrior.

It wouldn't take much to have me drop the assault charge. But, the other charges that relate to the subsequent investigation are another kettle of fish... They blew it and didn't have to... they are petty officers and not officers so I can buy into a lower level of thinking. I'm not saying only officers think well, but as a consideration of motive in all of this... I'd probably drop the charges if I was in charge there and give them a warning... Assuming what is listed is the total of the event..

BTW, Hi Zebo! 🙂

Well, you know, considering who you are and where you have been, you know.

Despite what everyone thinks, those who are special service soldiers are not out to kill more people than absolutely neccessary, in fact, we are in use where targets are to be taken down while leaving as many as possible alive.

I'll await their rejection before the court before i say anything more about this.

This whole thing started with Abu Ghraib and Kabul prison along with Gitmo and it won't end any time soon.

For those who don't want it investigated or tried in a court of law.... You are fucked up in your brain, i don't know if it's the methane frome your farts or genetic but you are fucking retarded people.

IF ANYTHING you follow a MORE strict code in a war zone, you do that because you want to stay the FUCK alive.

Of course these retarded pieces of sheit don't get as much but .. fuck them, they are insignificant pieces of sheit anyway.

 

[shira]

This is why the US will never win another war. We are simply incapable of doing so. No matter how well trained our military is and no matter what weapons they have, our civilian leadership is too weak to allow them to do their jobs. This pathetic weakness that has infected our society will end our dominance in the world. Every singe person who perpetuates this nonsense will be responsible for the downfall of this country. Everyone knows this.

This is hogwash.

These soldiers are accused of abusing a detainee after he was already secured in custody. The fact that charges have been filed by the military indicates that these aren't just the ravings and unsubstantiated claims of the detainee. Apparently, the military has evidence that actual abuse did take place and that at least one of the soldiers lied to investigators.

Don't confuse soldiers fighting on the battlefield and mistreatment of those in custody.

 

[Zebo]

Our country has its head up its ass.

Who gives a fuck, I mean really. They could have raped him with a pogo stick for all I care. Terrorists should die slow painful miserable death. Like my grandpa said - cut up mm by mm. Fuck anyone who defends them. You have any idea what they do and did to their own let alone ours? From stonings, to blowing up innocents, hanging corpses to rot in city square for a week, dismemberment, slow decapitations with a rusty old knife... watch the damn videos. They are the worst of the worst bullies imaginable and worst humanity has to offer. No quarter and certainly no US Constitution rights for them. Bloody lip?!? - cry me fucken river.

 

[Ozoned]

Well, you know, considering who you are and where you have been, you know.

Despite what everyone thinks, those who are special service soldiers are not out to kill more people than absolutely neccessary, in fact, we are in use where targets are to be taken down while leaving as many as possible alive.

I'll await their rejection before the court before i say anything more about this.

This whole thing started with Abu Ghraib and Kabul prison along with Gitmo and it won't end any time soon.

For those who don't want it investigated or tried in a court of law.... You are fucked up in your brain, i don't know if it's the methane frome your farts or genetic but you are fucking retarded people.

IF ANYTHING you follow a MORE strict code in a war zone, you do that because you want to stay the FUCK alive.

Of course these retarded pieces of sheit don't get as much but .. fuck them, they are insignificant pieces of sheit anyway.

Do you know the SAS's Ben griffin? I would say that, by the research he is doing (http://www.spokesmanbooks.com/Spokesman/PDF/griffin99.pdf) there is a little more to it than meets the eye..... Some kind of Policy.... Did you know that both of our governments still allow rendition???? Got to be careful on the battlefield though...Don't want the public seeing what we are up to. We will just show them that we don't allow our soldiers to physically harm the enemy. Ayup, we will make sure that this view makes it into the mainstream media...

 

[feralkid]

Our country has its head up its ass.

Who gives a fuck, I mean really. They could have raped him with a pogo stick for all I care. Terrorists should die slow painful miserable death. Like my grandpa said - cut up mm by mm. Fuck anyone who defends them. You have any idea what they do and did to their own let alone ours? From stonings, to blowing up innocents, hanging corpses to rot in city square for a week, dismemberment, slow decapitations with a rusty old knife... watch the damn videos. They are the worst of the worst bullies imaginable and worst humanity has to offer. No quarter and certainly no US Constitution rights for them. Bloody lip?!? - cry me fucken river.

Thank Almighty God we have a constitution to forever keep power out of the hands of madmen such as yourself.

Furthermore we should all give thanks to the brave men and women who fight to defend our constitution from the likes of you.

 

[LunarRay]

Our country has its head up its ass.

Who gives a fuck, I mean really. They could have raped him with a pogo stick for all I care. Terrorists should die slow painful miserable death. Like my grandpa said - cut up mm by mm. Fuck anyone who defends them. You have any idea what they do and did to their own let alone ours? From stonings, to blowing up innocents, hanging corpses to rot in city square for a week, dismemberment, slow decapitations with a rusty old knife... watch the damn videos. They are the worst of the worst bullies imaginable and worst humanity has to offer. No quarter and certainly no US Constitution rights for them. Bloody lip?!? - cry me fucken river.

It's not a matter of who THEY are... it is a matter about who I am! I have a way to punish wrong doers. And in my opinion and notwithstanding some order to terminate with extreme prejudice, I'm not about to become an animal of the jungle. More importantly, I'm not going to let my government nor my enemy induce me into stepping beyond the line of what I think is right... Treating a 'combatant' is about me doing the treatment.. not what they have done...

 

[LunarRay]

Despite what everyone thinks, those who are special service soldiers are not out to kill more people than absolutely neccessary, in fact, we are in use where targets are to be taken down while leaving as many as possible alive. I'll await their rejection before the court before i say anything more about this.

It is to be a Special Courts Martial... not sure you know, but that is between a Summary and General Courts Martial. The difference is to do with the nature of the charges and the punishment.

Thank God we have highly trained folks whose skill is such that they can perform the duties only an Elite Warrior can possibly do. The objective of any mission, I'd think, is to complete the mission. Folks die as the result of missions which are often times Classified, I guess. Because of the nature of the risk I'm more readily able to give a pass to the minor 'infractions' one might commit in the course of the mission but, I'm less able to give a pass to a lie that I might be told when I'd inquire. As I said earlier, I'm less able to overlook a tiny lie from an officer while understanding to some extent a lie from an enlisted man... at least in the US military.
To me not all issues are the same even when they are...

 

[LunarRay]

Do you know the SAS's Ben griffin? I would say that, by the research he is doing (http://www.spokesmanbooks.com/Spokes.../griffin99.pdf) there is a little more to it than meets the eye..... Some kind of Policy.... Did you know that both of our governments still allow rendition???? Got to be careful on the battlefield though...Don't want the public seeing what we are up to. We will just show them that we don't allow our soldiers to physically harm the enemy. Ayup, we will make sure that this view makes it into the mainstream media...

I'm thinking this rendition concept is a political move and not a military one although probably the military had some hand in the process.
I'm against using rendition as a means of 'pay back' or even Intel extraction... but, I'm in two minds regarding that. I'm plagued with the notion of wanting the Intel while at the same time wanting to follow what is right... what is stretched out of shape often is not what is right. I also have my own standards as to what is right... I think they are higher standards but I think I'd violate those standards if I had the Command Authority and would save lives by doing so... I think I would anyhow..

 

[Zebo]

It's not a matter of who THEY are... it is a matter about who I am! I have a way to punish wrong doers. And in my opinion and notwithstanding some order to terminate with extreme prejudice, I'm not about to become an animal of the jungle. More importantly, I'm not going to let my government nor my enemy induce me into stepping beyond the line of what I think is right... Treating a 'combatant' is about me doing the treatment.. not what they have done...

Hey lunar nice to see ya🙂

Ok so what purpose is served by treated them humanly? Do you think they respect that or see it as a form of weakness? I would argue the later because in the ME it's not whom is nicest but rather who carries biggest stick. See Saddam or even the SA rulers but for infidel examples look at the moro wars. They respect someone whom treats them in kind.

It's like any bully - and I was bullied in HS big time at 14 until I took a bat to this senior and no one fucked with me no more because they knew I'd come back with worse then they delt.

 

[Ozoned]

I'm thinking this rendition concept is a political move and not a military one although probably the military had some hand in the process.
I'm against using rendition as a means of 'pay back' or even Intel extraction... but, I'm in two minds regarding that. I'm plagued with the notion of wanting the Intel while at the same time wanting to follow what is right... what is stretched out of shape often is not what is right. I also have my own standards as to what is right... I think they are higher standards but I think I'd violate those standards if I had the Command Authority and would save lives by doing so... I think I would anyhow..

It is very hard to put the subject matter of the op into a context of understanding these criminal charges, when our country has a policy of rendition.

 

[LunarRay]

Hey lunar nice to see ya🙂

Ok so what purpose is served but treated them humanly? Do you think they respect that or see it as a form of weakness? I would argue the later because in the ME it's not whom is nicest but rather who carries biggest stick. See Saddam or even the SA rulers but for infidel examples look at the moro wars. They respect someone whom treats them in kind.

It's like any bully - and I was bullied in HS big time at 14 until I took a bat to this senior and no one fucked with me no more because they knew I'd come back with worse then they delt.

The quick answer is that I'm in control of me. Treating folks in a human manner, again, is not about them but me. I don't care what they think, who they respect or what they may do tomorrow.
I'd not have let you stand alone in HS... but neither would I have applauded your use of a bat. But you did make the point, I guess!... I often think my past and why folks did as they did toward others... and always wonder what might have become of them.. some I know died in VN and others made little of their life but they are or were content with that... I think how we react to stuff is about who we are.. we are driven to be who we are regardless of any other factor... "Dam the torpedos, full speed ahead" and like that... Not sure someone could anger me enough for me to swat them with a bat... ()🙂

And Yes... Good to see you again, Zebo.. been a while :awe:

 

[LunarRay]

It is very hard to put the subject matter of the op into a context of understanding these criminal charges, when our country has a policy of rendition.

It would be easy for me to say "Two wrongs don't make a right"... But I won't cuz the bigger point is what you've grasped...
How can we even have a charge on the books about minor mis-treatment of combatants while we send them to certain... well, uncertain conditions of treatment? I guess I fall back on how I'd handle the issue.. I'd probably find a way to give the SEAL a pass on the slap or punch... Not the lie... but the initial bit. And at the same time try to find a way to broadcast to the world the hypocrisy of our methods.
Our governments are liars and cheats and a disgraceful lot of cowards who'd use any means to further their objectives... and to show they ain't they'd bury a soldier with the ease of a buttered pan... But, they ain't me... I still control what I do... that is the rub... And probably why I don't call the shots, hehehehehhehehe

 

[fskimospy]

Our country has its head up its ass.

Who gives a fuck, I mean really. They could have raped him with a pogo stick for all I care. Terrorists should die slow painful miserable death. Like my grandpa said - cut up mm by mm. Fuck anyone who defends them. You have any idea what they do and did to their own let alone ours? From stonings, to blowing up innocents, hanging corpses to rot in city square for a week, dismemberment, slow decapitations with a rusty old knife... watch the damn videos. They are the worst of the worst bullies imaginable and worst humanity has to offer. No quarter and certainly no US Constitution rights for them. Bloody lip?!? - cry me fucken river.

I will repeat what I asked earlier (and no one answered). It is currently against treaties to which the US is signatory, US law, and the UCMJ to beat up prisoners and lie about it. Your post appears to be arguing for the ability of US servicemen to break the law. With this in mind, please outline when, where, and how often you believe US soldiers should be able to disregard federal law. Please be specific.

 

[LunarRay]

I will repeat what I asked earlier (and no one answered). It is currently against treaties to which the US is signatory, US law, and the UCMJ to beat up prisoners and lie about it. Your post appears to be arguing for the ability of US servicemen to break the law. With this in mind, please outline when, where, and how often you believe US soldiers should be able to disregard federal law. Please be specific.

We don't allow for the Nuremberg defense...
Service people are required to follow the lawful orders of their superiors. I suppose some orders are clearly lawful and some not so clearly lawful and some can tell the difference and some cannot... some orders are clearly illegal and the same logic applies.
I think the further up the food chain of command one is the more apt they are to discern what is lawful and what is not or what nuance may be at play.
However, IF the Command Authority develops a 'finding' and orders a service person to act against what is legal, I'd opine they then must comply. But, there is only one person with that authority and the buck stops there.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Do you know the SAS's Ben griffin? I would say that, by the research he is doing (http://www.spokesmanbooks.com/Spokesman/PDF/griffin99.pdf) there is a little more to it than meets the eye..... Some kind of Policy.... Did you know that both of our governments still allow rendition???? Got to be careful on the battlefield though...Don't want the public seeing what we are up to. We will just show them that we don't allow our soldiers to physically harm the enemy. Ayup, we will make sure that this view makes it into the mainstream media...

It's not like i've been the Captain of the ne front that has led all wars.

I'm sorry but Ben was NEVER SAS, not once, not even close.

There is only one leader of the TFB and that leader is me, so shut the FUCK up and stand in line like the rest of the silly twats who think they know sheit.

Other than that, i really don't want to ridicule you so i'll leave your retarded bullsheit as is.

Cpt Jake Agnew

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

We don't allow for the Nuremberg defense...
Service people are required to follow the lawful orders of their superiors. I suppose some orders are clearly lawful and some not so clearly lawful and some can tell the difference and some cannot... some orders are clearly illegal and the same logic applies.
I think the further up the food chain of command one is the more apt they are to discern what is lawful and what is not or what nuance may be at play.
However, IF the Command Authority develops a 'finding' and orders a service person to act against what is legal, I'd opine they then must comply. But, there is only one person with that authority and the buck stops there.

From a man who has been here and a man who knows what it's like to be our friends.

We agree on most things, but realise this, if they wer under my command they would never be alive alive.

If anyone wantst to know, Lunar is ex army and fucking good at it in his way.

So, war mongerers, showve it up your arse and bounce until you reach the ocean.

 

[palehorse]

These guys screwed up AFTER they very successfully captured a scumbag. Now the chips must fall where they will. As this is more than likely their first such offense, if they're guilty, then they should just be slapped on the wrist via UCMJ, and we'll all call it a day.

I, for one, am very happy to see another scumbag taken off the streets by our elite forces. I'm also happy about his bloody lip... but that's just me.

 

[Zebo]

The quick answer is that I'm in control of me. Treating folks in a human manner, again, is not about them but me. I don't care what they think, who they respect or what they may do tomorrow.
I'd not have let you stand alone in HS... but neither would I have applauded your use of a bat. But you did make the point, I guess!... I often think my past and why folks did as they did toward others... and always wonder what might have become of them.. some I know died in VN and others made little of their life but they are or were content with that... I think how we react to stuff is about who we are.. we are driven to be who we are regardless of any other factor... "Dam the torpedos, full speed ahead" and like that... Not sure someone could anger me enough for me to swat them with a bat... ()🙂

And Yes... Good to see you again, Zebo.. been a while :awe:

Very true Lunar. Have to strive for what we want world to be not what we are spur of the moment/angered emotions or we would never get anywhere. Nice to hear voice of reason sometimes. But still - can you forgive these guys for acting out? I can.

 

[LunarRay]

Very true Lunar. Have to strive for what we want world to be not what we are spur of the moment/angered emotions or we would never get anywhere. Nice to hear voice of reason sometimes. But still - can you forgive these guys for acting out? I can.

Yeah... I can and would find a way to get past the 'swat' on the terrorist if I was in a position to do something with the case. But, the lying to me about the issue is what bugs me. I figure they'd have to trust me to make the proper decision. Although, I realize they wouldn't know that nor what is in my mind and MORE importantly what the government wants to do with it for some agenda in which these elite warriors are the pawns... Because of that factor, I'd refuse to prosecute and drop the charges and let the powers to be deal with both me and the SEALS. I've come to this conclusion on this issue recently because it seems the government pushes agenda at the expense of people with no regard for the people... it seems...

 

[Fear No Evil]

It's not like i've been the Captain of the ne front that has led all wars.

I'm sorry but Ben was NEVER SAS, not once, not even close.

There is only one leader of the TFB and that leader is me, so shut the FUCK up and stand in line like the rest of the silly twats who think they know sheit.

Other than that, i really don't want to ridicule you so i'll leave your retarded bullsheit as is.

Cpt Jake Agnew

Translation:

(Beating chest): Me badass! Rrrrrrrroaar!!!!!!!!!!!! There is not a single person in this world who knows more about war than me. RRRROAAAAR!!! (More chest beating). Everyone else in the world is stupid but me! If anyone dares to question me I will shout insults and beat my chest and that will show them how much I know and how stupid they are! RRRROARRRR!!!!! STAND IN LINE!! PUT UP OR SHUT UP!! THIS IS MY RIFLE THIS IS MY GUN!

 

[fskimospy]

We don't allow for the Nuremberg defense...
Service people are required to follow the lawful orders of their superiors. I suppose some orders are clearly lawful and some not so clearly lawful and some can tell the difference and some cannot... some orders are clearly illegal and the same logic applies.
I think the further up the food chain of command one is the more apt they are to discern what is lawful and what is not or what nuance may be at play.
However, IF the Command Authority develops a 'finding' and orders a service person to act against what is legal, I'd opine they then must comply. But, there is only one person with that authority and the buck stops there.

My question really isn't based upon if they are following orders or not. I actually view the whole 'you must only follow lawful orders' bullshit to be a cop-out on the part of the higher ups to cover their ass. Figuring out what a lawful order is in a war zone is frequently not as easy as it sounds.

I don't care who is responsible for breaking the law, I have just seen quite a few people in this thread advocate for it and I would like for them to clarify their position. I won't hold my breath though, because...well... they're armchair tough guys.

 

[OutHouse]

Translation:

(Beating chest): Me badass! Rrrrrrrroaar!!!!!!!!!!!! There is not a single person in this world who knows more about war than me. RRRROAAAAR!!! (More chest beating). Everyone else in the world is stupid but me! If anyone dares to question me I will shout insults and beat my chest and that will show them how much I know and how stupid they are! RRRROARRRR!!!!! STAND IN LINE!! PUT UP OR SHUT UP!! THIS IS MY RIFLE THIS IS MY GUN!

lol

 

[Fayd]

I take it "law and order" is not a concept you support, nor place a lot of stock in.

no, that's a horrible show.

 

[Zebo]

Translation:

(Beating chest): Me badass! Rrrrrrrroaar!!!!!!!!!!!! There is not a single person in this world who knows more about war than me. RRRROAAAAR!!! (More chest beating). Everyone else in the world is stupid but me! If anyone dares to question me I will shout insults and beat my chest and that will show them how much I know and how stupid they are! RRRROARRRR!!!!! STAND IN LINE!! PUT UP OR SHUT UP!! THIS IS MY RIFLE THIS IS MY GUN!

IME The biggest pussies are those who enlisted in peace time as they usually can't hack dog eat dog real world so go suck govt teet. just sayin

No disrespect to 1% or so overachievers in there.But most are on outside. Everyone knows this.

 

[LunarRay]

My question really isn't based upon if they are following orders or not. I actually view the whole 'you must only follow lawful orders' bullshit to be a cop-out on the part of the higher ups to cover their ass. Figuring out what a lawful order is in a war zone is frequently not as easy as it sounds. I don't care who is responsible for breaking the law, I have just seen quite a few people in this thread advocate for it and I would like for them to clarify their position. I won't hold my breath though, because...well... they're armchair tough guys.

There can be no doubt that warriors in the heat of battle cannot simply look up the law or even rely on their training if they are 'newbies', I agree. It never is 'cut and dry'. The more often someone has faced the situation the more apt they are to react according to their training and mindset instead of a reaction based on fear and anger and what ever else may be at play. I've seen reasonable people 'break' sitting on a 'twin 50' and warp the barrels before they could be stopped.. lots of dead trees too. Imagine if there was a squad of Marines happening by at that moment... It has happened, so I'm told!
There ought to be a penalty to being the enemy and being caught although I'd not want our guys to face that situation but know they do anyhow.
However, in my mind is the law we live by and how and when to apply it is not always an easy call. Often it is mandated from on high to sate some civilian idiots notion of how this can be used to further an agenda.
Our SEALs in this case are two E5s and an E6. That should have been dealt with by the Senior Non Com/Chief and not even a Non Judicial Captain's Mast. The situation caused the 'cover up'... but both are wrong...
If I could call the shots on this I'd drop charges and let the Spelunkers of the on high caves figure out how to deal with my big mouth... heheheh