Cars: making life expensive, even for those without

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Jun 18, 2000
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However, cars are by far the most flexible, enjoyable and time efficient way to get around the world, and that's why they are ubiquitous. Changing that fundamental conclusion isn't going to happen until flying pods or teleporters are invented, eg, not anytime soon.

And most expensive and least space and energy efficient. They are ubiquitous because we publicly subsidize cars and their infrastructure, so it's all most people know.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
48,095
37,306
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Yeah, Cuomo is an idiot. I think it's better to do nothing than spend $2 billion on a bad air train. And extending the N/W from Ditmars would be best, but when has NY done things that make sense?

AOC has been making some noise about this project. I would not be the least bit sad if she could get it killed.
 
Dec 10, 2005
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A LOT. NYC sees over 65 million tourists. A lot of them are going to midtown from the airport.
There are a lot of people that come, but far more use the system everywhere in the city on a daily basis. With limited overall funding, best to expand to help the most people, not the one-off airport rides.

Do what Boston did: use buses and call it a line like a subway, and give it street priority.
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,483
8,344
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And most expensive and least space and energy efficient. They are ubiquitous because we publicly subsidize cars and their infrastructure, so it's all most people know.

I'd argue the "enjoyable" part. That's *HIGHLY* dependent on specific commuting scenarios. Same for efficient. I can get to work faster on my bike than any other method of transit. And let me tell you, I highly enjoy cruising at 20MPH with the wind in my face over the pedestrian bridge while I look over at the non-moving string of brake lights stuck crossing the I5 bridge each afternoon.

This is my nightly commute:

AUj2kpCIhJnEYhv37iF2uiVV4iT4lIOC8LHtvnAdePI.jpg
 

mect

Platinum Member
Jan 5, 2004
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Being exposed to the weather and only being able to travel short distances would seem rather life altering, and impairing.

Can we maintain the status quo, is this a change that needs to happen? Do we NEED to rely on public transport instead? Would make for a fascinating topic to explore.

I guess the first big question I have is... why? Why do we need to restrict and "harm" our quality of life? Conversely, would it actually improve our quality of life?
I'm not sure how you are defining quality of life, but most people I know hate sitting stuck in traffic with a one hour commute to travel 15 miles. I much prefer my 10 minute bike ride in to work.

Now part of the problem is zoning in this country, but this revolves around our traffic problems as well. If we zoned residential housing close to where the jobs are, it would really improve things.

I'm not arguing that we should get rid of cars. I think cars have their place. But driving around in cities with millions of people in them is not one of them.
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,483
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Yeah cars aren't going to be replaced by anything in rural 'Murica. The density and infrastructure just isn't there. But then again if you look at population movement patters there's a pretty predominant trend...people aren't moving *to* rural areas. They are moving away. Urban centers are increasing population rapidly. Cities really need to look at zoning and infrastructure fixes to handle the growth. Park & Rides. Express lines (bus/rail) during prime commuting where high volumes of commuters start from. Greenways/multi-use paths to get bikes off roads where people are less scared to ride. And so on. There are solutions to this.
 
Jun 18, 2000
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People view mass transit through the lens of 60 years of suburbanization. Of course most public transit is shit after 2 generations of public policy that encouraged low density development. Imagine someone who's driven his entire life, because he had no choice except drive everywhere, telling you he prefers driving everywhere.

Somebody upthread wondered how to get to a grocery store 4 miles away without a car. The question misses the point. An environment built around good transit will have grocery stores much closer to your home.
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,483
8,344
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People view mass transit through the lens of 60 years of suburbanization. Of course most public transit is shit after 2 generations of public policy that encouraged low density development. Imagine someone who's driven his entire life, because he had no choice except drive everywhere, telling you he prefers driving everywhere.

Somebody upthread wondered how to get to a grocery store 4 miles away without a car. The question misses the point. An environment built around good transit will have grocery stores much closer to your home.

Yeah I grew up where a "real" grocery store was 20 miles away. There was a dumpy one in my little rural town but it was super expensive and half the produce and dairy was rotted/expired. So my Mom would do weekly shopping and fill up the car with groceries. I live half a mile from Trader Joes now and 3/4 from a Fred Meyer. We do a couple little runs each week that we do on the bike. Keep fresher produce, can meal plan a lot better, and it's just generally a lot more convenient. As density increases so does access.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
48,095
37,306
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Vegas is a similar shit show. They need the monorail to connect McCarran to some place around the Bellagio. The dumpster fire of getting a ride share there is totally unnecessary. Build a rail and that thing will be loaded non-stop.

Even simply moving up and down the strip once you are there can be maddening.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
15,244
10,818
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Many cities(Never been to Korea) has transit pass for all their PT - locals have their reloadable pass and day pass for visitors - you tap and go basically, we Toronto had it for few years now and most cities I visited in Asia/EU have similar system.
Yeah, that is what I do in most cities, but there are usually limited placed you can buy them and a lot of places require cash. In Chicago you at least used to have to order 1-day passes online or buy them at the water tower. San Antonio you can buy them on the bus, but it's cash only.

Again not a big deal if you live somewhere, but it is a barrier for tourist. I know many people when they are traveling will just Uber everywhere because they don't want to figure out the PT system.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
15,244
10,818
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When you visit a foreign country, you should always change like $100 into local currency and always carry that with you. You don't know if a place is only going to be cash only and not take credit cards. You can only buy T-Money card and refills with cash only. It's the same in Taiwan with Easy Card for the MRT public transit. In Korea, ATM won't get you the best exchange rate. It's better to take US dollars and exchange it at currency exchange shops inside the city. When I was in Busan, I got better than the exchange rate listed on Google at currency exchange shop near Nampodong market on a street lined with currency exchange shops. Literally, every store on that street were currency exchange stores. I was paid almost 101% of the exchange rate at the time. First time that's happened in my life. I literally made money on the spread.

You don't need 1 day passes or anything like that with T-Money. Most of those 3-5 day passes, you'll never ride it enough to make it worth it. It's cheaper to just use T-Money and pay for individual rides and discounted transfers. The only place T-Money won't work is with Airport Limousine Buses. I rode the limousine bus from the airport to my hotel in both Busan and Seoul and both places required me to buy separate ticket instead of using T-Money card. But I think it's because the limousine buses are privately owned and not operated by the government. When I was in Busan and Seoul, I never once took a taxi even though taxis are everywhere and cheap. I used T-money card to ride buses and trains everywhere. Their system is so simple to use once you figure it out. And with Kakao Maps and Google Maps, there's no excuse not to use public transit since it's so good.

When I visited Taipei like 2 months ago, I used their Easy Card to take the MRT trains and buses everywhere. Easy Card in Taipei, Taiwan, is pretty much the same as T-Money in Korea. In Taipei, I got the card free at the airport and charged it at 7-11 stores which are everywhere in Taipei. You can only recharge the card using cash ,but you really need to use cash in Taipei. There are so many cash only places in Taipei and many times, it's easier to use cash there than credit card. And since Taiwanese dollar is pegged to the US dollar, the best place to exchange cash is actually at the airport currency exchange shops. I know that goes against every travel advice you been told to never exchange money at airport currency exchange places but Taiwan is an exception. You want to exchange as much money you think you'll need at the airport in Taipei. Strange but true. I pretty much used cash instead of credit cards in Taipei because of convenience. It's the only modern city I've traveled to where I've done that.
I agree having cash is important any time you travel. Unfortunately I was there for work and my company wants every penny going through the corporate card. I had to write a lot of justification for even using the ATM, but that's the only way you're allowed to get foreign cash (or the only way you'll get paid back for). Next time I'll do T-Money.
 

Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,676
5,238
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Yeah cars aren't going to be replaced by anything in rural 'Murica. The density and infrastructure just isn't there. But then again if you look at population movement patters there's a pretty predominant trend...people aren't moving *to* rural areas. They are moving away. Urban centers are increasing population rapidly. Cities really need to look at zoning and infrastructure fixes to handle the growth. Park & Rides. Express lines (bus/rail) during prime commuting where high volumes of commuters start from. Greenways/multi-use paths to get bikes off roads where people are less scared to ride. And so on. There are solutions to this.

I do like the ideas of loosening the regulations of what type of transportation investments need to be made by developers (rather than remove them)

Having available and safe pathways/greenways for non-vehicle traffic adds a lot of value.

We do need to invest in more PT in areas of higher density.

We should also consider ways to improve the efficiency of the roads we do build.

I've read studies regarding staggering inefficiencies of the typical "large block residential neighborhood with surrounding feeder roads" that is designed to restrict access to through-traffic and rather funnel it onto larger city roadways.

We're building lots of roads few can use, then forcing everyone onto a few major thoroughfares that then get snarled in traffic, with few opportunities to divert volume.

Benefits more than city center folks as well.
 

Denly

Golden Member
May 14, 2011
1,433
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106
Yeah, that is what I do in most cities, but there are usually limited placed you can buy them and a lot of places require cash. In Chicago you at least used to have to order 1-day passes online or buy them at the water tower. San Antonio you can buy them on the bus, but it's cash only.

Again not a big deal if you live somewhere, but it is a barrier for tourist. I know many people when they are traveling will just Uber everywhere because they don't want to figure out the PT system.

Everywhere I been to I order them online in adv, believe it or not they have promo for 20-30% from time to time lol.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
15,244
10,818
136
Yeah cars aren't going to be replaced by anything in rural 'Murica. The density and infrastructure just isn't there. But then again if you look at population movement patters there's a pretty predominant trend...people aren't moving *to* rural areas. They are moving away. Urban centers are increasing population rapidly. Cities really need to look at zoning and infrastructure fixes to handle the growth. Park & Rides. Express lines (bus/rail) during prime commuting where high volumes of commuters start from. Greenways/multi-use paths to get bikes off roads where people are less scared to ride. And so on. There are solutions to this.
I think dedicated employer/site shuttles should be considered too. I think that is over looked because people would see either as benefiting the one company, but any car off the road is a benefit to the city.
 
Jun 18, 2000
11,155
733
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Yeah I grew up where a "real" grocery store was 20 miles away. There was a dumpy one in my little rural town but it was super expensive and half the produce and dairy was rotted/expired. So my Mom would do weekly shopping and fill up the car with groceries. I live half a mile from Trader Joes now and 3/4 from a Fred Meyer. We do a couple little runs each week that we do on the bike. Keep fresher produce, can meal plan a lot better, and it's just generally a lot more convenient. As density increases so does access.

I'm jealous. My closest grocery is almost 2 miles away. Just far enough to be annoying to walk/ride to when in a hurry. The density in my neighborhood just isn't there yet. But it's changing.
 

jmagg

Platinum Member
Nov 21, 2001
2,099
403
126
Yeah, Cuomo is an idiot. I think it's better to do nothing than spend $2 billion on a bad air train. And extending the N/W from Ditmars would be best, but when has NY done things that make sense?
Agree.
https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2020/01/01/people-leaving-new-york/

NEW YORK (CBSNewYork) – As the old song goes, “if you can make it here, you can make it anywhere.”

Unfortunately for New York, more people are choosing to leave the Big Apple and go “anywhere” but here.

According to U.S. Census data released Monday, people are leaving New York at a faster rate than nearly any other state in the nation.

For the fourth straight year, the state’s population decreased as the number of residents choosing to go elsewhere outpaced the number of births, new residents moving in, and people immigrating to the Empire State.

New York is one of only 10 states to see their population go down between 2018 and 2019, according to a study by the Empire Center for Public Policy.

“New York has lost nearly 1.4 million residents to the rest of the country since 2010 – and largely as a result of this outflow, the Empire State’s total population barely budged during the decade,” a Dec. 30 Empire Center release said.

“The cost of living in New York — the high taxes, regulations and housing costs — are making it untenable to live the American dream here,” Staten Island Councilman Joe Borelli told the New York Post.

The report did not make an assumption on why so many people are choosing to leave New York State.

In 2019 the state saw its population drop by 76,000 people — about 0.4 percent overall — the largest decline of any state in the U.S. last year.
 

Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,676
5,238
136
Agree.
https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2020/01/01/people-leaving-new-york/

NEW YORK (CBSNewYork) – As the old song goes, “if you can make it here, you can make it anywhere.”

Unfortunately for New York, more people are choosing to leave the Big Apple and go “anywhere” but here.

According to U.S. Census data released Monday, people are leaving New York at a faster rate than nearly any other state in the nation.

For the fourth straight year, the state’s population decreased as the number of residents choosing to go elsewhere outpaced the number of births, new residents moving in, and people immigrating to the Empire State.

New York is one of only 10 states to see their population go down between 2018 and 2019, according to a study by the Empire Center for Public Policy.

“New York has lost nearly 1.4 million residents to the rest of the country since 2010 – and largely as a result of this outflow, the Empire State’s total population barely budged during the decade,” a Dec. 30 Empire Center release said.

“The cost of living in New York — the high taxes, regulations and housing costs — are making it untenable to live the American dream here,” Staten Island Councilman Joe Borelli told the New York Post.

The report did not make an assumption on why so many people are choosing to leave New York State.

In 2019 the state saw its population drop by 76,000 people — about 0.4 percent overall — the largest decline of any state in the U.S. last year.

The only place in NY I'd want to live is NYC... Because it's NYC, and thus many many benefits for the cost.

The benefits quickly fall off with distance, but the taxes and regs do not.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,644
50,881
136
Agree.
https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2020/01/01/people-leaving-new-york/

NEW YORK (CBSNewYork) – As the old song goes, “if you can make it here, you can make it anywhere.”

Unfortunately for New York, more people are choosing to leave the Big Apple and go “anywhere” but here.

According to U.S. Census data released Monday, people are leaving New York at a faster rate than nearly any other state in the nation.

For the fourth straight year, the state’s population decreased as the number of residents choosing to go elsewhere outpaced the number of births, new residents moving in, and people immigrating to the Empire State.

New York is one of only 10 states to see their population go down between 2018 and 2019, according to a study by the Empire Center for Public Policy.

“New York has lost nearly 1.4 million residents to the rest of the country since 2010 – and largely as a result of this outflow, the Empire State’s total population barely budged during the decade,” a Dec. 30 Empire Center release said.

“The cost of living in New York — the high taxes, regulations and housing costs — are making it untenable to live the American dream here,” Staten Island Councilman Joe Borelli told the New York Post.

The report did not make an assumption on why so many people are choosing to leave New York State.

In 2019 the state saw its population drop by 76,000 people — about 0.4 percent overall — the largest decline of any state in the U.S. last year.

It should be noted that the Empire Center is a right wing think tank. That being said, New York State's population decline is pretty easy to explain. Downstate, housing is insanely expensive. Upstate, there are no jobs.

It's a lot like California, which also has had a net outflow of interstate immigration, the housing costs are just too high. NYC and California are among the most in-demand places to live on earth but at some point the average person just can't afford it because both places decided to stop building houses.
 

jmagg

Platinum Member
Nov 21, 2001
2,099
403
126
The only place in NY I'd want to live is NYC... Because it's NYC, and thus many many benefits for the cost.

The benefits quickly fall off with distance, but the taxes and regs do not.
Comeon over, we need your taxes to complete a frivolous river walkway in Albany. We can fill a few holes in the roads with any extra asphalt.
 

Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,676
5,238
136
Comeon over, we need your taxes to complete a frivolous river walkway in Albany. We can fill a few holes in the roads with any extra asphalt.

I did my time there and GTFO.

Absolutely painful to watch infrastructure projects move at glacial speed for moon landing prices.
Especially after being in Denver watching the city remodel it's entire highway and mass transit system in record speed and end up under budget.

Both NY Rs and Ds have killed the upstate economy with corruption and incompetence.
 

jmagg

Platinum Member
Nov 21, 2001
2,099
403
126
It should be noted that the Empire Center is a right wing think tank. That being said, New York State's population decline is pretty easy to explain. Downstate, housing is insanely expensive. Upstate, there are no jobs.

It's a lot like California, which also has had a net outflow of interstate immigration, the housing costs are just too high. NYC and California are among the most in-demand places to live on earth but at some point the average person just can't afford it because both places decided to stop building houses.
There are jobs, the Albany area is becoming a minor tech hub. Global Foundry, Colleges of Nanoscale Science and Engineering, RPI s EVE program etc. Points west less so.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tech_Valley
Reasonable housing costs for less skilled, and high property taxes for the more fortunate are the reason for the exodus imo.
 
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Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
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There are jobs, the Albany area is becoming a minor tech hub. Global Foundry, Colleges of Nanoscale Science and Engineering, RPI s EVE program etc. Points west less so.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tech_Valley
Reasonable housing costs for less skilled, and high property taxes for the more fortunate are the reason for the exodus imo.

I think there also some weather and mountainous terrain disadvantages upstate has.

It's not insurmountable, but it does make for extra difficulty and challenge where governmental incompetence just cannot be afforded.

Take Texas politics as you will, but a place like Austin/ San Antonio that's open, flat, warm and cheap and it's a tough place to compete against.
Denver is much the same, just colder and higher. It's so easy to build and move around.

Construction worker shortages are the main drivers of higher COL trends there.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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There are jobs, the Albany area is becoming a minor tech hub. Global Foundry, Colleges of Nanoscale Science and Engineering, RPI s EVE program etc. Points west less so.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tech_Valley
Reasonable housing costs for less skilled, and high property taxes for the more fortunate are the reason for the exodus imo.

Disagree, it's basically entirely high housing costs for downstate. Property taxes play into that but they are only a small part - the real failure is that there should be tens or hundreds of thousands of additional homes that NIMBYs prevented from being built.
 

ondma

Platinum Member
Mar 18, 2018
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That's categorically untrue. Plenty of people in the US live without cars, particularly in urban environments. Adequately planned mass transit could help reduce people's personal reliance on automobiles. Maybe it won't stop many households from owning one, but it could reduce their personal car trips.


Again - that's choices we've made as a society with regards to zoning and where we choose to live. In some places, we've decided that commercial/retail and housing shouldn't be mixed, leading to these sprawling, completely unwalkable neighborhoods. We've dedicated tons of space for literally storing personally automobiles.

Also, bicycles and buses don't stop working when it's cold outside.
Come visit me in Minnesota when the wind chill is 30 below and the roads are covered with ice, and I will let you borrow my bike to make the six mile trip to work that I make every day.
Alternatively, you can freeze your ass off or get mugged waiting for the bus or light rail to double your commute time.
 
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pete6032

Diamond Member
Dec 3, 2010
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Korea has one of the best public transit system in the world and payment is not PITA. It's so simple to use. In Korea, they use T-Money card which you can buy at the airport or pretty much any convenience stores all across the country. All buses, subway trains, and taxis have scanners you just tap your T-Money card on as you get on or get off to pay. So it's super easy to transfer between buses and subway. In fact, it couldn't be easier. I visited Busan last Spring and used T-Money card everywhere. If you live in Korea or travel to Korea, T-Money card is the first thing you need to buy when you get there.

https://english.visitkorea.or.kr/enu/TRP/TP_ENG_8_1_1.jsp

T-money card and Kakao maps instead of Google Maps are must in Korea.
That is what we have in Chicago, contact-less cards you tap on the reader. Busses accept cash but the cards are ubiquitous. Everyone has one.