Cars: making life expensive, even for those without

[K1052]

First, lots of US cities have similar population density to cities in Europe that have effective mass transit.

Second, the study is about how in areas that have sufficient density for mass transit we instead waste tons of valuable land and time on cars. New York is finally starting to move in the right direction but fundamentally the real answer, at least for Manhattan, is to ban private cars entirely.

Third, you do realize that if you love clean air personal cars are basically the worst thing for it, right? They are an air pollution nightmare as compared to buses and trains.

I had the opportunity to look at what the city did to 14th Street a few months back and immediately thought they should do it to the entire island below Central Park lol.

Even EVs, while dramatically better than ICEs, still have considerable particulate pollution problems from tires and breaks. Cites do need EVs (cabs, busses, etc) but also need FAR less private cars.

 

[Aikouka]

We need to raise gas tax a lot, and put all of that increase into funding public transit and trails. I really don't understand why we have no problem with mass subsidization of cars, but can't stand the thought of subsidizing PT.

Realistic and mass used public transit becomes far less of an option when your area is vastly consumed by suburbia. I mean... my city has public transit, but it's largely used by those that can't afford a car or can't use one (elderly, etc.). They've recently expanded it a bit, but it still has plenty of shortcomings, and would be rather difficult for me to ever use it. To give you an idea, using it would likely turn my 15 minute commute via car into a two hour commute via bike + bus as I'd have to take multiple buses to even get close to my destination.

I think the only way to make a decent public transport system work in my area would be a hub system with dedicated buses that run between hubs, and a design that allows people to reach their hub (relatively) quickly. Although, even then, my guess is that I'd be looking at around 40 minutes to an hour of total transit time given the most efficient system.

One potential consideration that has its own shortcomings is to build homes closer to work. For example, if a company is building a large factory that'll bring in thousands of new jobs, consider building nearby subsidized homes. If you get what are effectively large communities based upon a specific place, you can even have shuttles that run to and from. The one downside is that communities tied to a specific workplace become rather reliant on it, and that can become a problem if it leaves/closes. Although, if your area is getting something like a new auto plant, it might be a bit odd to do something to reduce the use of automobiles.

Also, heavily dense urban areas don't get as many cars just because of public transport, but also because the logistics of having a car in a huge metropolis is just a pain, and in the end, possibly not worth it unless you drive out of the city a lot. If you don't... just rent a car the one or two times a year you need it.

 

[ponyo]

Making PT free would be a great start. Ridership on our new street car system jumped 3x when they made it free on the weekends. The fare was only covering like 10% of the cost anyways.

While this isn't a big issue if you actually lived somewhere, but when I travel I try to take PT a lot. It is always a pain trying to figure out how/where to buy transit passes and whether they are good for just the bus, just the subways, transfers, etc. Even when I was in Busan, Korea (which had an awesome system) the payment was a PITA and you couldn't transfer between buses and subway.

Korea has one of the best public transit system in the world and payment is not PITA. It's so simple to use. In Korea, they use T-Money card which you can buy at the airport or pretty much any convenience stores all across the country. All buses, subway trains, and taxis have scanners you just tap your T-Money card on as you get on or get off to pay. So it's super easy to transfer between buses and subway. In fact, it couldn't be easier. I visited Busan last Spring and used T-Money card everywhere. If you live in Korea or travel to Korea, T-Money card is the first thing you need to buy when you get there.

https://english.visitkorea.or.kr/enu/TRP/TP_ENG_8_1_1.jsp

T-money card and Kakao maps instead of Google Maps are must in Korea.

 

[Zorba]

Realistic and mass used public transit becomes far less of an option when your area is vastly consumed by suburbia. I mean... my city has public transit, but it's largely used by those that can't afford a car or can't use one (elderly, etc.). They've recently expanded it a bit, but it still has plenty of shortcomings, and would be rather difficult for me to ever use it. To give you an idea, using it would likely turn my 15 minute commute via car into a two hour commute via bike + bus as I'd have to take multiple buses to even get close to my destination.

I think the only way to make a decent public transport system work in my area would be a hub system with dedicated buses that run between hubs, and a design that allows people to reach their hub (relatively) quickly. Although, even then, my guess is that I'd be looking at around 40 minutes to an hour of total transit time given the most efficient system.

One potential consideration that has its own shortcomings is to build homes closer to work. For example, if a company is building a large factory that'll bring in thousands of new jobs, consider building nearby subsidized homes. If you get what are effectively large communities based upon a specific place, you can even have shuttles that run to and from. The one downside is that communities tied to a specific workplace become rather reliant on it, and that can become a problem if it leaves/closes. Although, if your area is getting something like a new auto plant, it might be a bit odd to do something to reduce the use of automobiles.

Also, heavily dense urban areas don't get as many cars just because of public transport, but also because the logistics of having a car in a huge metropolis is just a pain, and in the end, possibly not worth it unless you drive out of the city a lot. If you don't... just rent a car the one or two times a year you need it.

This is the catch 22 of PT. No one rides it because it sucks, and it sucks because no one rides it. My point was, tax cars so you can subsidize better PT. No you can't cover every use case, but you could cover a lot, especially in the more dense parts of cities and to major employers.

Korea has one of the best public transit system in the world and payment is not PITA. It's so simple to use. In Korea, they use T-Money card which you can buy at the airport or pretty much any convenience stores all across the country. All buses, subway trains, and taxis have scanners you just tap your T-Money card on as you get on or get off to pay. So it's super easy to transfer between buses and subway. In fact, it couldn't be easier. I visited Busan last Spring and used T-Money card everywhere. If you live in Korea or travel to Korea, T-Money card is the first thing you need to buy when you get there.

https://english.visitkorea.or.kr/enu/TRP/TP_ENG_8_1_1.jsp

T-money card and Kakao maps instead of Google Maps are must in Korea.

I should've done T-money when I was there, but you have to pre-load it with money and it can only be purchased with cash, at least in the Subway. Based on the website and from what I remember when I was there, T-money doesn't give you free transfers, only a transfer discount. T-money is definitely the way to go if you are going to be there for awhile.

So here is my PITA: I had to go to my hotel, use the expensive ATM in the lobby to get cash, then get change for it into 1s, to buy a pass. I bought 1-day passes, that said "good for 24-hours" found out it was only good for 24-hours from purchase, not first use so I wasted 2 and had to rebuy. I had to transfer to the train that goes to the airport and the 1-day subway pass didn't work, had to go buy a token. Then found out you can't use the 1-day pass on the bus, either, and can't use paper money on the bus have to have change, and I couldn't ever find a change machine, so no bus for me. So it was a PITA to just pay to use the PT, much easier to pay for a taxi.

I agree that the system itself is amazing, and I loved using it. But when every city/system has a completely different way of payment and many are cash only, it is just one extra barrier to using the systems while traveling. Obviously if you live somewhere you get if figured out pretty quickly and it isn't a big deal. I always just try to buy a daily or weekly pass everywhere I go so I don't have to worry about it, but that didn't work out for me in Busan.

 

[Brainonska511]

I should've done T-money when I was there, but you have to pre-load it with money and it can only be purchased with cash, at least in the Subway. Based on the website and from what I remember when I was there, T-money doesn't give you free transfers, only a transfer discount. T-money is definitely the way to go if you are going to be there for awhile.

I really liked the subway when I was in Milan last June. I was able to load a CC with no foreign transaction fee into Google Pay, then just tap my phone at certain turnstiles to get in/out. Much easier than figuring out how to buy a fare from an automated machine (which also didn't take chip & signature cards).

 

[K1052]

I really liked the subway when I was in Milan last June. I was able to load a CC with no foreign transaction fee into Google Pay, then just tap my phone at certain turnstiles to get in/out. Much easier than figuring out how to buy a fare from an automated machine (which also didn't take chip & signature cards).

Chicago has this and NYC is rolling it out with OMNY in phases to replace the Metrocard (eventually for commuter rail too).

 

[fskimospy]

This is the catch 22 of PT. No one rides it because it sucks, and it sucks because no one rides it. My point was, tax cars so you can subsidize better PT. No you can't cover every use case, but you could cover a lot, especially in the more dense parts of cities and to major employers.

Yes, what people need to realize is that the amount of area you cover isn't nearly as important as covering the area you do very well. Start off with the busiest/densest routes and places and mass transit the shit out of them so it's super useful in that area, then slowly expand from there. I know when I lived in San Diego the buses went all over town but the coverage was so poor you could be waiting for one for like 45 minutes so the only people who rode it were those who recently got a DUI or crazy people.

I still think it's funny that for all the legendary stories about crazy people in the NYC subway riding the San Diego trolley is usually way more insane because at least in NYC you have thousands of sane people for every crazy one. In San Diego it's more like 1:1.

 

[Brainonska511]

Chicago has this and NYC is rolling it out with OMNY in phases to replace the Metrocard (eventually for commuter rail too).

I've seen that, which is great. But, for other reasons unrelated to OMNY, and having lived previously in NYC, the MTA is a disaster of an organization; and seeing how Cuomo views it as his little fiefdom, and De Blasio is a moron, I don't hold out much hope for great improvements in NYC subway or bus service.

 

[fskimospy]

I've seen that, which is great. But, for other reasons unrelated to OMNY, and having lived previously in NYC, the MTA is a disaster of an organization; and seeing how Cuomo views it as his little fiefdom, and De Blasio is a moron, I don't hold out much hope for great improvements in NYC subway or bus service.

The MTA is a disaster for a few pretty obvious reasons.

1) The people who run it generally don't use it.
2) There's no one that can be held accountable for failures. Cuomo controls the MTA but he's elected by the whole state, much of which doesn't care if the MTA works or not.

There's a current push to return control of the subway to the NYC mayor, which would be one of the best things to ever happen to it. That way if the subway doesn't work we know exactly who to blame and more importantly, can vote them out if they do a bad job.

 

[Brainonska511]

The MTA is a disaster for a few pretty obvious reasons.

1) The people who run it generally don't use it.
2) There's no one that can be held accountable for failures. Cuomo controls the MTA but he's elected by the whole state, much of which doesn't care if the MTA works or not.

There's a current push to return control of the subway to the NYC mayor, which would be one of the best things to ever happen to it. That way if the subway doesn't work we know exactly who to blame and more importantly, can vote them out if they do a bad job.

Yeah, I've seen that push, but it's not going to be done under De Blasio. The man is 100% windshield perspective. Even though he doesn't control the subway, he does control the streets. He could do so much to improve bus service, like what was done to 14th and the creation of some bus lanes, but he's totally out to lunch about how most people in NYC get around.

 

[K1052]

I've seen that, which is great. But, for other reasons unrelated to OMNY, and having lived previously in NYC, the MTA is a disaster of an organization; and seeing how Cuomo views it as his little fiefdom, and De Blasio is a moron, I don't hold out much hope for great improvements in NYC subway or bus service.

The subway has measurably improved under Byford's tenure but that raging egomaniac of a governor reorganized him out of a job because he got some good press. Busses might improve more once BDB is gone if somebody like Corey Johnson becomes mayor and starts taking more lanes away for them.

Anyway from a payment system standpoint OMNY is pretty good even though it's taken years longer to get going than elsewhere and the PA will be at least a couple years behind in adopting it fully. Of course NJT is developing their own separate system...lol America.

 

[Denly]

I live in suburb and would love to bike and/or take PT as much as possible while keeping one car when needed but there are a few issues. Bike in the snowy/icy winter is not ideal - even my 90yrs old Norwegian neighbor keep telling that's what they did back in the day, our system sucks no high speed train, buses are very few during weekend and is tough to walk miles in the winter.

The other issue is car develop issues if sitting for more than a couple weeks.

Making PT free would be a great start. Ridership on our new street car system jumped 3x when they made it free on the weekends. The fare was only covering like 10% of the cost anyways.

While this isn't a big issue if you actually lived somewhere, but when I travel I try to take PT a lot. It is always a pain trying to figure out how/where to buy transit passes and whether they are good for just the bus, just the subways, transfers, etc. Even when I was in Busan, Korea (which had an awesome system) the payment was a PITA and you couldn't transfer between buses and subway.

Many cities(Never been to Korea) has transit pass for all their PT - locals have their reloadable pass and day pass for visitors - you tap and go basically, we Toronto had it for few years now and most cities I visited in Asia/EU have similar system.

 

[Bitek]

Yes, but by definition very few people live in low-population-density areas. Most people live in cities. That's what cities _are_ - the areas where most people live. We already are in the process of jamming most of humanity into super high density urban areas. Have you not noticed? The US came very noticably later to that process than did most of Europe, which urbanised a century earlier (I've seen it suggested that that's why the UK isn't very religious - the working class became 'de-churched' when they all moved to the cities during the industrial revolution), but it's finally happening in the US as well, as well as much of the rest of the world.

And food production uses less-and-less human labour, which is why there are so few jobs in the countryside.

I think that's an overstatement. Very few places look like Manhattan, HK or London.

Even in high density areas around cities there is still considerable sprawl. Have you ever been to New Jersey? It's the most densely populated state in the US, and even then it's mostly suburban and utterly dependent on cars.

Yes, there are good mass transit options* (for the US) to get into Manhattan, but not necessarily to other parts of the state.

Even in Europe, a very common configuration is dense cities, but also medium density villages surrounded by countryside connected by roadways.

Yeah you can get around London by tube pretty well, but even out in nearby Kent you need a car to get around. Certainly lorries do need roadways. Plumbers and other workmen aren't getting around by bicycles and buses.

Same in Germany. Frankfurt is pedestrian friendly, but getting out to Bavaria needs a car, or a lot of money and patience by train, and options get very limited after that. Certainly many taxis running around.

A study coming out and saying "yeah, well, these roadways were a terrible idea after all" just isn't very useful information or very cognizant of how people live.

I'll agree more could and should be done in city centers above a certain density.
I also think the ride sharing, EVs and other novel forms of transportation can also help. There are real opportunities with rentable e-scooters, provided car traffic was limited in dense areas so aholes don't mow people down.

However, cars are by far the most flexible, enjoyable and time efficient way to get around the world, and that's why they are ubiquitous. Changing that fundamental conclusion isn't going to happen until flying pods or teleporters are invented, eg, not anytime soon.

 

[ponyo]

I should've done T-money when I was there, but you have to pre-load it with money and it can only be purchased with cash, at least in the Subway. Based on the website and from what I remember when I was there, T-money doesn't give you free transfers, only a transfer discount. T-money is definitely the way to go if you are going to be there for awhile.

So here is my PITA: I had to go to my hotel, use the expensive ATM in the lobby to get cash, then get change for it into 1s, to buy a pass. I bought 1-day passes, that said "good for 24-hours" found out it was only good for 24-hours from purchase, not first use so I wasted 2 and had to rebuy. I had to transfer to the train that goes to the airport and the 1-day subway pass didn't work, had to go buy a token. Then found out you can't use the 1-day pass on the bus, either, and can't use paper money on the bus have to have change, and I couldn't ever find a change machine, so no bus for me. So it was a PITA to just pay to use the PT, much easier to pay for a taxi.

I agree that the system itself is amazing, and I loved using it. But when every city/system has a completely different way of payment and many are cash only, it is just one extra barrier to using the systems while traveling. Obviously if you live somewhere you get if figured out pretty quickly and it isn't a big deal. I always just try to buy a daily or weekly pass everywhere I go so I don't have to worry about it, but that didn't work out for me in Busan.

When you visit a foreign country, you should always change like $100 into local currency and always carry that with you. You don't know if a place is only going to be cash only and not take credit cards. You can only buy T-Money card and refills with cash only. It's the same in Taiwan with Easy Card for the MRT public transit. In Korea, ATM won't get you the best exchange rate. It's better to take US dollars and exchange it at currency exchange shops inside the city. When I was in Busan, I got better than the exchange rate listed on Google at currency exchange shop near Nampodong market on a street lined with currency exchange shops. Literally, every store on that street were currency exchange stores. I was paid almost 101% of the exchange rate at the time. First time that's happened in my life. I literally made money on the spread.

You don't need 1 day passes or anything like that with T-Money. Most of those 3-5 day passes, you'll never ride it enough to make it worth it. It's cheaper to just use T-Money and pay for individual rides and discounted transfers. The only place T-Money won't work is with Airport Limousine Buses. I rode the limousine bus from the airport to my hotel in both Busan and Seoul and both places required me to buy separate ticket instead of using T-Money card. But I think it's because the limousine buses are privately owned and not operated by the government. When I was in Busan and Seoul, I never once took a taxi even though taxis are everywhere and cheap. I used T-money card to ride buses and trains everywhere. Their system is so simple to use once you figure it out. And with Kakao Maps and Google Maps, there's no excuse not to use public transit since it's so good.

When I visited Taipei like 2 months ago, I used their Easy Card to take the MRT trains and buses everywhere. Easy Card in Taipei, Taiwan, is pretty much the same as T-Money in Korea. In Taipei, I got the card free at the airport and charged it at 7-11 stores which are everywhere in Taipei. You can only recharge the card using cash ,but you really need to use cash in Taipei. There are so many cash only places in Taipei and many times, it's easier to use cash there than credit card. And since Taiwanese dollar is pegged to the US dollar, the best place to exchange cash is actually at the airport currency exchange shops. I know that goes against every travel advice you been told to never exchange money at airport currency exchange places but Taiwan is an exception. You want to exchange as much money you think you'll need at the airport in Taipei. Strange but true. I pretty much used cash instead of credit cards in Taipei because of convenience. It's the only modern city I've traveled to where I've done that.

 

[vi edit]

It's funny, I used to have a 20 mile drive to work. Got fed up with that. Moved to a place where I had a 5 mile drive. Got sick of that. Now I live in a city (Portland) where I live a block off a major neighborhood greenway (bike route) and have a 3 mile, 15 minute bike ride into downtown. I spend all of 2 minutes on streets with significant car traffic. It's glorious. I had to use a rental car to travel for work and was stuck in downtown traffic for a good 20 minutes. I really missed my bike. When weather is bad I'm off a bus route or can walk to the light rail and take that into city center. I haven't used my own car for work for over a month. Same for my wife. She has a 10 minute ride to work. Our employer offers indoor lockups for our bikes so they aren't left out in the rain/easily stolen. It's been a wonderful life change.

Yes, many urban core people can (and totally do) live without a car. We are cutting down to a one car household and that one car will sit unused most days of the week. We'll use it for costco runs or weekend excursions. On long trips I'll just rent a vehicle. It's amazing how much monthly income you save not having car payments, insurance, gas, parking, ect.

It's not for everyone, but e-bikes, proper city planning, and non-shared corridors with car traffic can greatly cut down on congestion. There's A LOT of cities across the US that could do this, it just needs vision and commitment. E-bikes are a blast, help offset a lot of the annoyance of traditional bike commuting, and can really make a meaningful push in getting people to move away from cars and to something more practical. True winter climates are sort of out during the winter (unless you have some sort of protected path) but a lot of places you can cover A LOT of turf on an e-bike without breaking a sweat. I get 40 miles of travel for about $.07 worth of electricity. I can haul my kids to school on it and with saddles carry a couple days worth of groceries. Most of my family from the Midwest just doesn't understand. And most people don't until they try it themselves. It's been a great change for me. Even with Portland rain, you just dress appropriately and it's fine. I still get to work dry.

 

[mect]

Yes, we do need to ban private cars in big cities and expand public transportation. Personally, I hate public transportation because even with a good system, it takes forever to get anywhere. I've spent considerable time over in Germany, and a bike is almost always faster (unless you're going over 20 miles). With ebikes, bikes' advantages only get bigger. Snow and ice also aren't big deals as long as the city is taking care of their bike trails, and with studded tires on the bike, it works quite well (until temperatures dip below 0). In addition, bikes have a lot more health benefits. The good thing is, bikes and public transportation coexist much more harmoniously than bikes and private cars.

 

[Jaskalas]

Being exposed to the weather and only being able to travel short distances would seem rather life altering, and impairing.

Can we maintain the status quo, is this a change that needs to happen? Do we NEED to rely on public transport instead? Would make for a fascinating topic to explore.

I guess the first big question I have is... why? Why do we need to restrict and "harm" our quality of life? Conversely, would it actually improve our quality of life?

 

[vi edit]

Being exposed to the weather and only being able to travel short distances would seem rather life altering, and impairing.

Can we maintain the status quo, is this a change that needs to happen? Do we NEED to rely on public transport instead? Would make for a fascinating topic to explore.

I guess the first big question I have is... why? Why do we need to restrict and "harm" our quality of life? Conversely, would it actually improve our quality of life?

Define "short".

I can cover 4 miles in 20 minutes EASY on my bike. Not even a sweat. And 3 minutes of that is because I'm stuck at a stop light. As for weather, the only thing that keeps me away is ice. And cars have the same problem. Public transit is the fall back. Or just telecommute.

The problem with so many people is that they plan their lives for the exception and not norm. The 2 days a year that suburban man uses his F-150...is that really a good use case justification for having that much car? Multiply that times 10's of millions similar use cases. Our strength in the food change is adaptation. We need to adapt.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Even in high density areas around cities there is still considerable sprawl. Have you ever been to New Jersey? It's the most densely populated state in the US, and even then it's mostly suburban and utterly dependent on cars.

I live in upstate NY, about 10 minutes drive outside of a major college town (where I work) with a pretty extensive PT system to facilitate the kiddos. I just google transited a trip from my home to my work, it says it'll take an hour and 20 minutes, and that's with 20 minutes of walking. I know for a fact that at least half of that is down a 45mph highway with no shoulder (ditch in fact), and very limited plowing done in the winter.

EDIT: Even better, there's a single bus that runs that stop in the morning, if I miss my 6:50AM bus after walking 20m, I don't go to work that day. Reverse trip is similar, a few more buses running but the last one's at 5:15. Better hope we don't have any emergency situations or I get to walk for *checks google maps* 3 hours!

 

[vi edit]

I still find it downright pathetic that a city like NYC can't get its shit together and offer a high speed rail from city center Manhattan to the airports. You *still* have to rely on cabs for transfers.

 

[Brainonska511]

I still find it downright pathetic that a city like NYC can't get its shit together and offer a high speed rail from city center Manhattan to the airports. You *still* have to rely on cabs for transfers.

IDK, how often are those trips really made? JFK already has the Air Train - it just needs more frequent service and should be free. Cabs, ride share, and personal autos should cost a lot more to drop off and pick up at the airport.

LGA has good bus service to/from subway the only hurdle is lack of dedicated bus lanes.

 

[K1052]

IDK, how often are those trips really made? JFK already has the Air Train - it just needs more frequent service and should be free. Cabs, ride share, and personal autos should cost a lot more to drop off and pick up at the airport.

LGA has good bus service to/from subway the only hurdle is lack of dedicated bus lanes.

JFK has the best setup although the connection to the subway at Jamaica is a disaster and LIRR is confusing to actually use if you're not from NY. Also the fare collection scheme is a horror.

Should have just extended the N train to LGA about 20 years ago. Instead now Cuomo is spending $2B on an LGA AirTrain that goes the wrong way....

The Port Authority is looking to spend $2B to extend PATH to EWR.

 

[vi edit]

IDK, how often are those trips really made? JFK already has the Air Train - it just needs more frequent service and should be free. Cabs, ride share, and personal autos should cost a lot more to drop off and pick up at the airport.

LGA has good bus service to/from subway the only hurdle is lack of dedicated bus lanes.

A LOT. NYC sees over 65 million tourists. A lot of them are going to midtown from the airport.

 

[vi edit]

Vegas is a similar shit show. They need the monorail to connect McCarran to some place around the Bellagio. The dumpster fire of getting a ride share there is totally unnecessary. Build a rail and that thing will be loaded non-stop.

 

[Brainonska511]

Should have just extended the N train to LGA about 20 years ago. Instead now Cuomo is spending $2B on an LGA AirTrain that goes the wrong way....

Yeah, Cuomo is an idiot. I think it's better to do nothing than spend $2 billion on a bad air train. And extending the N/W from Ditmars would be best, but when has NY done things that make sense?