Carpet bomb Alabama please.

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gopunk

Lifer
Jul 7, 2001
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Originally posted by: mugsywwiii
Originally posted by: gopunk


i'm interested in a debate... when i have nothing better to do. don't roll your eyes at me when you're the one getting all b!tchy about your posts being neglected. get a dog if you need attention.

and ppd is calculated by taking the total number of posts and dividing by the number of days i have been a member. this means that i could be really bored and have nothing to do one day, sign up, post 100 times, then be really busy the next day and not be able to post at all and have 50 posts per day. sorry if my schedule isn't consistent enough for you
rolleye.gif

Wow, way to be an ass.

hey, you were the one that implied i was purposefully ignoring your post when you had no clue.

arguing about what way the constitution should be interpreted is like arguing about religion... lots of zealotry and nobody's mind gets changed. there are a lot of smart people that have spent a good deal of their lives arguing about this, and i don't think either of us can presume to be any more an expert on the matter than them. millenium was saying the federal courts do not have jurisdiction, and i said that they did. this is something that can be absolutely determined by looking at judicial precedence, the constitution, etc. i don't really wish to get into a discussion about constitutional interpretation because the answer to that can not be determined, it's purely a matter of opinion.

Can you point me to anything in the constitution that indicates it should be interpreted in any way other than literally? When congress passes new laws, do we interpret them in any way other than literally? Sure the constitution was written 200 years ago - but if it is outdated, it needs to be changed via the prescribed means.

can you point me to anything in the constitution that indicates what way it should be interpreted? there is no right or wrong way.

this would be an excellent example of why an interpretation other than a literal one might be useful... with a literal one, you're left with a catch 22. go one way, violate the first. go the other, also violate the first.

Allowing the free practice of one religion is NOT the same as limiting other religions.

and nobody ever said it was... i believe the issue the courts had with this was "respecting an establishment of religion".

I've heard snipets no the news lately about the Boy Scouts not being allowed to use public land out in California somewhere because they're a "religious organization." Give me a freaking break. That's what the first amendment is meant to protect AGAINST. If a Buddhist temple wants to have a picnic on public land, then darn it they should be allowed to, same as the Boy Scouts. This country is too politically correct for it's own good.

um... that's great? that really has no relevance to what we were talking about... different scenario, different situation, different people. just because you found a case where the first amendment is being improperly used doesn't mean that it always is.

My evidence is years of legal precedent that is in disagreement with the constitution. The lack of removal of judges has nothing to do with whether their decisions are right or wrong. A supreme court justice will never be removed from office because of a bad decision because essentially there is no such thing as a bad Supreme Court decision - they decide what is right and what is wrong. That's all well and good - it's great that they have life terms, it frees them from political pressure. The problem is that they've extended the bounds of what the Supreme Court is supposed to do.

it's only your opinon that their rulings disagree with the constitution. but aside from that, you are implying that a supreme court justice will never be removed for a bad decision because they decide what is bad and what isn't. this is false. congress can remove a justice without the supreme court's decisions influencing them.

and supreme court rulings have been reversed in the past... i fail to see how this would be a minor point to your argument that their decisions are final.

Well if you go back and read where I said that, you will see that it is in the context of the lack of checks and balances. Yeah I realize supreme court decisions can be overturned by the supreme court, but that has nothing to do with checks and balances. It is hardly "balance" when a decision can't be overturned until enough people die that the vote would change.

why is the finality of a decision relevant to checks and balances? because there is a concern that a bad decision will end up being final, right? well, the fact that decisions can be overturned provides a way to get rid of bad decisions.

Do you even GET my point? Let me sum it up for you very simply - In light of the fact that the supreme court is essentially above reproach, the scope of their actions should be limited to what is prescribed by the constitution; they should not take it upon themselves to essentially write new law by interpreting the constitution in any way other than literally. They HAVE done that. That bothers me. It should bother everyone.

apparently you don't get my point, which is that:

a.) they are not above reproach, as i have shown
b.) it is only your OPINION that the constitution should be interpreted literally

I'm thinking this argument is pointless, because I'm saying things shouldn't be the way they are, and you're apparantly content with the supreme court bastardizing the constitution.

it's pointless because nothing will ever result from any development here, and because you fail to recognize that your opinion is just that, an opinion. now if your opinion were fact, i'll agree that your arguments are very compelling.
 

mugs

Lifer
Apr 29, 2003
48,920
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can you point me to anything in the constitution that indicates what way it should be interpreted? there is no right or wrong way.

a. Common sense. The burdern of proof is on YOU - literally is by default the way you'd interpret something you read unless you have some reason to believe that it is not meant to be taken literally. I'm sorry, but if you're going to pull relativistic "there is no right or wrong way" bullsh!t you're not worth arguing with.
b. I did make the very valid point that ALL of our laws are interpreted literally.

I've heard snipets no the news lately about the Boy Scouts not being allowed to use public land out in California somewhere because they're a "religious organization." Give me a freaking break. That's what the first amendment is meant to protect AGAINST. If a Buddhist temple wants to have a picnic on public land, then darn it they should be allowed to, same as the Boy Scouts. This country is too politically correct for it's own good.

um... that's great? that really has no relevance to what we were talking about... different scenario, different situation, different people. just because you found a case where the first amendment is being improperly used doesn't mean that it always is.

It is relevant in that it is a case where the government is simply allowing the free practice of religion, not endorsing a religion.

it's only your opinon that their rulings disagree with the constitution. but aside from that, you are implying that a supreme court justice will never be removed for a bad decision because they decide what is bad and what isn't. this is false. congress can remove a justice without the supreme court's decisions influencing them.

Good lord you suck at arguing... just because you SAY something is my opinion does not change the fact that it is not opinion, it is FACT. The constitution means what it says just as surely as that 55 mile per hour speed limit sign means the cops CAN pull you over if you're going 56 miles an hour. Why would they bother writing it if they didn't want it followed?! Why would they include a mechanism for changing it if you can just change the interpretation whenever you want?

why is the finality of a decision relevant to checks and balances? because there is a concern that a bad decision will end up being final, right? well, the fact that decisions can be overturned provides a way to get rid of bad decisions.

Is it not nearly as bad for a bad decision to stand for 20 years before being overturned as it is for a bad decision to be final?

a.) they are not above reproach, as i have shown

No you have not. Impeachment is meant to be used to remove justices from office when they have committed serious crimes. It has nothing to do with their decisions.

b.) it is only your OPINION that the constitution should be interpreted literally

If you say it enough times, it might be true. Oh wait it won't.

it's pointless because nothing will ever result from any development here, and because you fail to recognize that your opinion is just that, an opinion. now if your opinion were fact, i'll agree that your arguments are very compelling.

Nothing will ever result from most arguments, but they still have merits. Debate leads to progress. Unfortunately you can't get past thinking that it is only my opinion that the constitution should be interpreted literally, so it's not really worth debating anymore. This is why it's worthwhile to study history...
 

gopunk

Lifer
Jul 7, 2001
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Originally posted by: mugsywwiii
can you point me to anything in the constitution that indicates what way it should be interpreted? there is no right or wrong way.

a. Common sense. The burdern of proof is on YOU - literally is by default the way you'd interpret something you read unless you have some reason to believe that it is not meant to be taken literally. I'm sorry, but if you're going to pull relativistic "there is no right or wrong way" bullsh!t you're not worth arguing with.
b. I did make the very valid point that ALL of our laws are interpreted literally.

i'm going to take your lack of evidence as a concession that you could find nothing in the constitution that says it should be interpreted literally.

if it's such common sense, then why, in the centuries after the constitution was written, has the legal community failed to come to a consensus on this? clearly this is not common sense. and i'm perfectly happy with not arguing about this, as i've stated before, this is pointless because it's a matter of opinion.

a lot of our laws (not "all") are interpreted literally because that is how the judges choose to interpret them.

and there are reasons to believe it was not meant to be read literally... surely the founding fathers were aware that the definitions of words change or that whole sections will cease to be relevant over time. is it reasonable to think that they intended amendments to be passed continuously just to account for this? there are cases where contradictions can easily be found (such as the case where the exercise of one's religion involves violating the first amendment). are we to think that the founding fathers were either extremely poor at logic and/or proof-reading, or that they left the resolution of the discrepancies on purpose as a fun exercise for congress?

um... that's great? that really has no relevance to what we were talking about... different scenario, different situation, different people. just because you found a case where the first amendment is being improperly used doesn't mean that it always is.

It is relevant in that it is a case where the government is simply allowing the free practice of religion, not endorsing a religion.

right, it's relevant in that case. too bad that's not the case :p

Good lord you suck at arguing... just because you SAY something is my opinion does not change the fact that it is not opinion, it is FACT. The constitution means what it says just as surely as that 55 mile per hour speed limit sign means the cops CAN pull you over if you're going 56 miles an hour.

hahaha okay i suck at arguing. but it's still opinion. :p

Why would they bother writing it if they didn't want it followed?!

the constitution is being followed. your complaint is that the courts are applying the principles in the constitution to cases not explicitly defined in the constitution.

Why would they include a mechanism for changing it if you can just change the interpretation whenever you want?

because interpretation can only work with what is there to begin with. i could give you a list of reasons, but you can easily find them by looking at the reason behind each of the amendments made so far.

Is it not nearly as bad for a bad decision to stand for 20 years before being overturned as it is for a bad decision to be final?

correct

a.) they are not above reproach, as i have shown

No you have not. Impeachment is meant to be used to remove justices from office when they have committed serious crimes. It has nothing to do with their decisions.

violation of the constitution is a serious crime, and i'm not playing semantics... i fully believe that if the supreme court were to make a ruling that everybody agreed violated the constitution, there would be impeachments up the ying yang.

If you say it enough times, it might be true. Oh wait it won't.

i'm glad you recognize that.

Nothing will ever result from most arguments, but they still have merits. Debate leads to progress. Unfortunately you can't get past thinking that it is only my opinion that the constitution should be interpreted literally, so it's not really worth debating anymore. This is why it's worthwhile to study history...

there has been debate about how the constitution should be interpreted ever since it was written. do you see any progress? because i sure as hell don't. and you can go ahead and think that your opinion is fact, even though you have no evidence besides a non-existant "common sense" to support that assertion. i sleep well knowing that this sentiment is not widely shared by the legal community.
 

mugs

Lifer
Apr 29, 2003
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Is it not nearly as bad for a bad decision to stand for 20 years before being overturned as it is for a bad decision to be final?

correct

That didn't come out the way I intended it - what i meant is, isn't it almost as bad to let a bad decision stand for 20 years as it is for it to be final? Yes, finality is definitely worse, but a bad decision that stands for 20 years and affects thousands of people is a bad, bad thing.

No you have not. Impeachment is meant to be used to remove justices from office when they have committed serious crimes. It has nothing to do with their decisions.

violation of the constitution is a serious crime, and i'm not playing semantics... i fully believe that if the supreme court were to make a ruling that everybody agreed violated the constitution, there would be impeachments up the ying yang.

Unfortunately it has become accepted that the Supreme Court can interpret the constitution more liberally, particularly in cases where they give more authority to the federal government than granted by the constitution or intended by the constitution. However, as far as being impeached over an unpopular ruling, see:
Text

Particularly:
While Clymer's contentions may hold up in theory, Beau Baez, a professor of law with Concord School of Law in Los Angeles, told CNSNews.com that there is "practically zero chance" of a politically motivated impeachment succeeding.


"Thomas Jefferson tried it back in 1805 with another associate justice at the time - his name was Samuel Chase - primarily over a political squabble," Baez noted.


President George Washington appointed Chase, who was from Maryland, in 1796. At Jefferson's urging, the U.S. House of Representatives impeached Chase, but the Senate refused to convict him.


"Ever since," Baez explained, "impeaching justices for unpopular opinions has pretty much been dead."

there has been debate about how the constitution should be interpreted ever since it was written. do you see any progress? because i sure as hell don't. and you can go ahead and think that your opinion is fact, even though you have no evidence besides a non-existant "common sense" to support that assertion. i sleep well knowing that this sentiment is not widely shared by the legal community.

You sir, are an idiot.
 

gopunk

Lifer
Jul 7, 2001
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That didn't come out the way I intended it - what i meant is, isn't it almost as bad to let a bad decision stand for 20 years as it is for it to be final? Yes, finality is definitely worse, but a bad decision that stands for 20 years and affects thousands of people is a bad, bad thing.

well i have to still disagree... an example: slavery was very bad, but not nearly as bad as if it were still going on today.

No you have not. Impeachment is meant to be used to remove justices from office when they have committed serious crimes. It has nothing to do with their decisions.

violation of the constitution is a serious crime, and i'm not playing semantics... i fully believe that if the supreme court were to make a ruling that everybody agreed violated the constitution, there would be impeachments up the ying yang.

Unfortunately it has become accepted that the Supreme Court can interpret the constitution more liberally, particularly in cases where they give more authority to the federal government than granted by the constitution or intended by the constitution. However, as far as being impeached over an unpopular ruling, see:
Text

Particularly:
While Clymer's contentions may hold up in theory, Beau Baez, a professor of law with Concord School of Law in Los Angeles, told CNSNews.com that there is "practically zero chance" of a politically motivated impeachment succeeding.

"Thomas Jefferson tried it back in 1805 with another associate justice at the time - his name was Samuel Chase - primarily over a political squabble," Baez noted.

President George Washington appointed Chase, who was from Maryland, in 1796. At Jefferson's urging, the U.S. House of Representatives impeached Chase, but the Senate refused to convict him.

"Ever since," Baez explained, "impeaching justices for unpopular opinions has pretty much been dead."

... pretty much been dead because congress checks the judicial system and is fine with it. you'll notice that it was the senate that prevented the removal from office, not the supreme court. just because you disagree with the outcome of the checks in our system of checks and balances, does not mean that the checks are not working as intended.

You sir, are an idiot.

and you sir, resort to name calling.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,395
8,558
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"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

seems to me that says the constitution should be read narrowly
 

gopunk

Lifer
Jul 7, 2001
29,239
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Originally posted by: ElFenix
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

seems to me that says the constitution should be read narrowly

judicial power is explicitly given in Article III
 

Rio Rebel

Administrator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,194
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Nice to see this thread has turned into an interesting discussion - despite a title that indicates the thread creator is as ignorant as the man he's criticizing.

I don't think states' rights are a legitimate issue here. It is a simple application of the Establishment Clause to state government (through the 14th amendment's provision which extends it to the states.) Maybe you could challenge that, but this has been the foundation for most judicial decisions for years.

It's a shame that someone in so high an office has so little regard for our governmental structure.
 

Bantam

Member
May 23, 2003
36
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Originally posted by: gopunk
And of course, Article 1, Section 1, says that ALL LAWMAKING POWERS are given only to Congress. Thus, the Supreme Court cannot make laws regarding anything, whether it be that States can't have laws against abortion, or that you can't have the ten greatest Laws in a courthouse.

the supreme court can not make a law saying that states can't have laws against abortion, but it can easily have a ruling that interprets the constitution as prohibiting that. that is exactly what it does, it has never made a law, and no one is asking it to.

Additionally, the 9th and 10th ammendment say that the federal government can't do anything that it doesn't have specific power to do. There is no specific power to overrule state laws. Period. This is Moore's point, the federal judge that made the order to get rid of the monument had no authority whatsoever.

no there is a specific power to overrule state laws, and i'll post it here:

This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.

the federal courts have the final say in terms of interpretation of the constitution, therefore if they find that a state law is unconstitutional, they can force the state to get rid of it. you have an extremely selective vision in this matter.

and as for all your quotes, i could produce quotes that support separation of church and state, but suffice it to say, the supreme court has repeatedly upheld the notion of separation of church and state... good luck getting that repealed :) who should i trust when it comes to interpretation of the constitution... the supreme court, or you? hmm.



Fool. Where in the Constitution does it say states cannot legislate (and others have brought this up - it's not even a law. But assuming it were...) religious doctrine? Nowhere. You still didn't answer me.

The First Amendment specifically states the Congress shall make no law concerning it, and the tenth affirms that the States, or the people, instead have the power to do it. Article VI has nothing to do with this at all - Alabama didn't ratify a treaty with another country, or impose a tax on another state's goods, or do anything else that is against the Constitution.

Unless you were referring to this part:

___________________
the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding
------------------------------

Judge Moore is following his state law, and the federal judges are not following it. Plain and simple. The other judges, not Mr. Moore, are disobeying the Constitution. There is no law that the United States has made declaring what Moore did is illegal - and even if there was, that very law would be illegal because of the First Amendment.

But of course, since our curren political leaders OBVIOUSLY know more than any of us peasants (Hey, they're the political leaders, after all! What do we know? We shouldn't even vote, after all, because THEY are the political leaders! They OBVIOUSLY know more! Perhaps a monarchy then, you commie?). So plain language, and comments from the founding fathers in such documents as the Federalist Papers, don't mean jack squat to us peasants, right? To quote you: "the federal courts have the final say in terms of interpretation of the constitution" - if you notice, jack@ss, Mr. Bush hasn't been stopped from making war, even though Congress never actually declared it. The courts haven't gone against him. Does this mean that now that the president can declare war instead of Congress, despite what Article I section 8? That's what the court might as well be saying, so gee golly, let's ignore what the Constitution ACTUALLY says.

I feel sorry for you, gopunk. You want a dictatorship. You want more power to the government, and less responsibility. You refuse to listen to others who state in plain language what the Constitution says. You instead listen to your 'rulers' and refuse to listen to anything else.

Move to Cuba. But first, read this.
 

Fausto

Elite Member
Nov 29, 2000
26,521
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Here's the text of the original ruling by the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals pertaining to the constitutional issues of the monument. The full text can be found here (pdf)

Because of this country?s ?history and tradition of religious diversity that
dates from the settlement of the North American Continent,? the Founders included
in the Bill of Rights an Establishment Clause which prohibits any law ?respecting
an establishment of religion.? County of Allegheny v. ACLU, 492 U.S. 573, 589,
109 S. Ct. 3086, 30 99 (1989). In the mo re than two centuries since that clause
became part of our Constitution, the Supreme Court has arrived at an
understanding of its general meaning, which is that ?government may not promote
or affiliate itself with any religious doctrine or organization, may not discriminate
among persons on the basis of their religious beliefs and practices, may not
delegate a governmental power to a religious institution, and may not involve itself
too deeply in such an institution?s affairs.? Id. at 590-91, 109 S. Ct. at 3099
(footnotes omitted). Some aspects of the Chief Justice?s position in this case are
aimed directly at that u nderstan ding. Take, for example, the one w e address next.

The First Amendment does not say that no government official may take any
action respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise
thereof. It says that ?Congress shall make no law? doing that. Chief Justice Moore
is not Congress. Nonetheless, he apparently recognizes that the religion clauses of
the First Amendment apply to all laws, not just those enacted by Congress. See
Everson v. Bd. of Educ., 330 U.S. 1, 15, 67 S. Ct. 504, 511 (1947) (holding that the
Establishment Clause applies to the states through the Due Process Clause of the
Fourteenth Amendment). Even with that concession, his position is still plenty
bold. He argues that because of its ?no law? language, the First Amendment
proscrib es only law s, which should be defined as ?a rule of civil co nduct . . .
commanding what is right and prohibiting what is wrong.? Brief of Appellant at
19 (quoting 1 W illiam Blackstone, Commentaries *44). Any governmental action
promoting religion in general or a particular religion is free from constitutional
scrutiny, he insists, so long as it does not command or prohibit conduct. The
monument does neither, but instead is what he calls ?a decorative reminder of the
moral foundation of American law.? Brief of Appellant at 19.

The breadth of the Chief Justice?s position is illustrated by his counsel?s
concession at oral argument that if we adopted his position, the C hief Justice would
be free to adorn th e walls of the Alabama Supreme Court?s courtroom with
sectarian religious murals and have decidedly religious quotations painted above
the bench. Every government building could be topped with a cross, or a menorah,
or a statue of Buddha, depending upon the views of the officials with authority
over the premises. A cr&egrave;che could occupy the place of honor in the lobby or
rotunda of every municipal, county, state, and federal building. Proselytizing
religious messages could be played over the public address system in every
government building at the whim of the official in charge of the premises.

However appealing those prospects may be to some, the position Chief
Justice M oore takes is foreclosed by Supreme Court precedent. County of
Allegheny, 492 U.S. at 612, 109 S. Ct. at 3110, which held unconstitutional the
placement of a cr&egrave;che in the lobby of a courthouse, stands foursquare against the
notion that the Establishment Clause permits government to promote religion so
long as it d oes not command or prohibit co nduct. Id., 109 S. Ct. at 3110 (?To be
sure, some Christians may w ish to see th e government proclaim its allegiance to
Christianity in a religious celebration of Christmas, but the Constitution does not
permit the gratification of that desire, which would contradict ?the logic of secular
liberty? it is the purpose of the Establishment Clause to protect.?) (citation
omitted). To the same effect is the decision in Lee v. Weisman, 505 U.S. 577, 587,
112 S. Ct. 2649, 2655 (1992), where the Supreme Court explained that, ?[a] school
official, the principal, decided that an invocation and a benediction should be
given; this is a choice attributable to the State, and from a constitutional
perspective it is as if a state statute decreed that the prayers must occur.? A nd in
Jaffree v. Wallace, 705 F.2d 1526 (11th Cir. 1983), prob. juris. noted and aff?d in
part, 466 U .S. 924, 104 S. Ct. 1704, cert. denied sub. nom. Bd. of Sch. Comm?rs of
Mobile County v. Jaffree, 466 U.S. 926, 104 S. Ct. 1707, and aff?d in part, 472
U.S. 38, 105 S . Ct. 2479 (1985), this Court concluded th at ?f a statute
authorizing the teachers? activ ities wou ld be unconstitutio nal, then th e activities, in
the absence of a statute, are also unconstitutional.? Id. at 1533-35.

Another of the Chief Justice?s broad-based attacks on the application of the
Establishment Clause to his condu ct involves the definition of religion. H e insists
that for First Amendment purposes religion is ?the duty which we owe to our
Creator, and the manner of discharging it?; nothing more, nothing less. Brief of
Appellant at 11-12 (quoting Virginia D eclaration of Righ ts Art. I, § 16 (1776)).
The Chief Justice argues that the Ten Commandments, as he has presented them in
the monument, do not involve the duties individuals owe the Creator, and therefore
they are not religious; instead, he says, they represent the moral foundation of
secular duties that individuals owe to society.

The Supreme Court has instructed us that for First Amendment purposes
religion includes non-Christian faiths and those that do not profess belief in the
Judeo-Christian God; in deed, it includes the lack of an y faith. Allegheny County,
492 U.S. at 590 , 109 S. Ct. at 309 9 (?Perh aps in the early days of the Republic
these words [of the Establishment Clause] were understood to protect only the
diversity within Christianity, but today they are recognized as guaranteeing
religious liberty and equality to the infidel, the atheist, or the adherent of a non-
Christian faith such as Islam or Judaism.?) (internal marks omitted); Wallace v.
Jaffree, 472 U.S. 38, 52-53, 105 S. Ct. 2479, 2487-88 (1985) (?[T]he Court has
unambiguously concluded that the individual freedom of conscience protected by
the First Amendment embraces the right to select any religious faith or none at
all.?) (footn ote omitted); Torcaso v. Watkins, 367 U.S. 488, 495, 81 S. Ct. 1680,
1683-84 (1961). Ch ief Justice M oore?s proffered definition of religion is
inconsistent with the Supreme Court?s because his presupposes a belief in God.
We understand that the Chief Justice disagrees with the Supreme Court?s definition
of religion, but we are bound by it.

As for the other essential premise of Chief Justice Moore?s argument ? that
the Ten Commandments monument depicts only the moral foundation of secular
duties ? the Supreme Court has instructed us that ?[t]he Ten Commandments are
undeniably a sacred text in the Jewish and Christian faiths, and no legislative
recitation of a supposed secular purpose can blind us to that fact.? Stone v.
Graham, 449 U.S. 39, 41, 101 S. Ct. 192, 194 (1980) (footnote omitted). The
Stone decision did not h old that all government uses o f the Ten Commandments
are impermissible; they may be used, for exam ple, in a secular study of history,
civilization, or comparative religion. Id. at 42, 101 S. Ct. at 194. Use of the Ten
Commandments for a secular pu rpose, however, does n ot chang e their inherently
religious nature, and a particular governmental use of them is permissible under the
Establishment Clause only if it withstands scrutiny under the prevailing legal test.
As we discuss next, the use to which Chief Justice Moore, acting as a government
official, has put the Ten Commandments in this case fails that test.

For a practice to survive an Establishment Clause inquiry, it must pass the
three-step test laid out in Lemon v. Kurtzman, 403 U .S. 602, 91 S. C t. 2105 (1971).
The Lemon test requires that the challenged practice have a valid secular purpose,
not have the effect of advancing or inhibiting religion, and not foster excessive
government entanglement with religion. Id. at 612-1 3, 91 S. Ct. at 211 1.
We follow the tradition in this area by beginning with the almost obligatory
observation that the Lemon test is often maligned. See, e.g., Lamb?s Chapel v. Ctr.
Moriches Union Free Sch. D ist., 508 U.S. 384, 398, 113 S. Ct. 2141, 2150 (1993)
(Scalia, J., concurring) (?[N]o fewer than five of the currently sitting Justices have,
in their own opinions, personally driven pencils through the [Lemon test?s] heart
(the author of today?s opinion repeatedly), and a sixth has joined an opinion doing
so.?); Wallace v. Jaffree, 472 U .S. at 110 , 105 S. Ct. at 2517 (Rehnquist, J.,
dissenting) (?The three-part test has simply not provided adequate standards for
deciding Establishment Clause cases, as this Court has slowly come to realize.?);
Elenore Cotter K lingler, Case Comment, Constitutional Law: Endorsing a New
Test for Establishment Clause Cases, 53 Fla. L. Rev. 995 (2001). But it is even
more often applied.

What the Supreme Court said ten years ago remains true today: ?Lemon,
however frightening it might be to some, has not been overruled.? Lamb?s Chapel,
508 U.S. at 395 n.7, 113 S. Ct. at 2148 n.7. We applied the Lemon test in another
religious display case just days before this one w as orally argued. See King v.
Richmond County, No. 02-14146, slip op. 2541 (11th Cir. May 30, 2003). In
doing so, we observed that ?[e]ven though some Justices and commentators have
strongly criticized Lemon, both the Supreme Court and this circuit continue to use
Lemon?s three-pronged analysis.? Id. at 2545-46 (footnote omitted). Having
noted that again today, we proceed with the test.

Applying Lemon, the district court concluded that Chief Justice Moore?s
purpose in displaying the monument was not secular. It based that conclusion on
the Chief Justice?s own words, on the monument itself, and on the physical context
in which it appears. Glassroth, 229 F. Supp. 2d at 1299-1300. The court found the
case not as difficult as those in which the Ten Commandments display had ?an
arguably secular, historical purpose, fo r the evidence here does not even b egin to
support that conclusion, nor does the evidence support the conclusion that the Ten
Commandments were displayed as sort of a secular moral code.? Id. at 1301.
Instead, ?[t]he Chief Justice?s words unequivocally belie such purposes.? Id.

Citing Justice O?Connor?s concurring opinion in Wallace v. Jaffree, 472
U.S. at 74, 105 S. Ct. at 2499 (O?Connor, J., concurring), Chief Justice Moore
argues th at the district court erred by psychoanalyzing him and, as he puts it,
?dissecting [his] heart and min d.? Brief of Appellant at 42. Wallace v. Jaffree
involved legislative purpose, not that of an ind ividual governmental actor. 472
U.S. at 40, 105 S. Ct. at 2481. Besides, no psychoanalysis or dissection is required
here, where there is abundant evidence, including his own words, of the Chief
Justice?s purpose.

Chief Justice Moore testified candidly that his purpose in placing the
monument in the Judicial Building was to acknowledge the law and sovereignty of
the God of the Holy S criptures, and that it was intended to acknowledge ?God?s
overruling power over the affairs of men.? 1st Supp. Rec. Vol. 2 at 100; 1st Supp.
Rec. Vol. 3 at 34. In his unveiling speech , the Chief Justice described his purpose
as being to remind all who enter the building that ?we must invoke the favor and
guidance of Almighty God.? Glassroth, 229 F. Supp. 2d at 1297, 1322 (App. C).
And he said that the monument marked ?the return to the knowledge of God in our
land.? Id. at 1323. He refused a request to give a famous speech equal position
and prominence because, he said, placing ?a speech of any man alongside the
revealed law of God would tend to diminish the very purpose of the Ten
Commandments monument.? Id. at 1297.

Against the weight of all this evidence, Chief Justice Moore?s insistence in
his briefs and argument, and in part of his testimony, that the Ten Commandments
as presented in his monument have a purely secular application is unconvincing.
That argument is akin to the state?s contention in Stone that the fine print about
secular purpose on the Ten Commandments posters in that case gave them a
constitutionally perm issible purpose. 449 U.S. at 41, 101 S. Ct. at 193. At the
bottom of each poster was a statement that: ?The secular application of the Ten
Commandments is clearly seen in its adoption as the fundamental legal code of
Western Civilization and the common law of the United States.? Id., 101 S. Ct. at
193. The Supreme Court said, ?under this Court?s rulings, however, such an
?avowed? secular purpose is not sufficient to avoid conflict with the First
Amendment.? Id., 101 S. Ct. at 193 -94. The same is true here.

Under our circuit law, the purpose inquiry is a factual one, see ACLU v.
Rabun County Chamber of Commerce, 698 F.2d 1098, 1110-11 (11th Cir. 1983),
and on appeal we are obligated to accept the district court?s findings of fact unless
they are clearly erron eous, Anderson v. City of Bessemer City, 470 U.S. 564, 573,
105 S. Ct. 1504, 1511 (1985). Clearly erroneous they are not. Moreover, even if
we were free to review the determination de novo, having examined the record
ourselves, we agree with the district court that it is ?self-evident? that Chief Justice
Moore?s purpose in displaying the monument was non-secular. Given all of the
evidence, including the Chief Justice?s own words, we cannot see how a court
could reach any other conclusion.
 

jyates

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2001
3,847
0
76
Originally posted by: ELP
Originally posted by: fastz28
Originally posted by: fatbaby
Originally posted by: dabuddha
Originally posted by: iwearnosox
Give me a break.

I don't see a problem with it. Haven't you heard of seperation of church and state?

I thought that was to prevent the church from controlling the state?

It was intented to keep gov't from church, not other way around. :|

Do you know that most of the signers of the constitution are Christians?

Really? Where did you get that?

Oh contrare...

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

Shall we go on?

I'm amazed....you actually found websites espousing a particular view.
Don't you think you might could find websites finding the other side's
opinion?

Just because someone can write and put it on the web doesn't mean it's true. :)


 

gopunk

Lifer
Jul 7, 2001
29,239
2
0
Fool. Where in the Constitution does it say states cannot legislate (and others have brought this up - it's not even a law.

i've addressed that issue in prior posts

But assuming it were...) religious doctrine? Nowhere.

first amendment extends to states via 14th amendment

You still didn't answer me.

do you have another screen name? because i honestly don't remember seeing your previous post...

Unless you were referring to this part:

___________________
the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding
------------------------------

Judge Moore is following his state law, and the federal judges are not following it. Plain and simple. The other judges, not Mr. Moore, are disobeying the Constitution. There is no law that the United States has made declaring what Moore did is illegal - and even if there was, that very law would be illegal because of the First Amendment.

yea, except for the one you posted above... your "plain and simple" conclusion rests on the assumption that the first amendment only applies to congress, which it doesn't due to the 14th amendment, and that "law" must be legislation, which it doesn't need to be (look it up in the dictionary).

But of course, since our curren political leaders OBVIOUSLY know more than any of us peasants (Hey, they're the political leaders, after all! What do we know? We shouldn't even vote, after all, because THEY are the political leaders! They OBVIOUSLY know more! Perhaps a monarchy then, you commie?). So plain language, and comments from the founding fathers in such documents as the Federalist Papers, don't mean jack squat to us peasants, right?

the supreme court contains no political leaders... and we don't elect theim either. and why the hell would i want a monarchy if i was a communist? that makes no sense... or did you not know what those terms meant?

To quote you: "the federal courts have the final say in terms of interpretation of the constitution" - if you notice, jack@ss, Mr. Bush hasn't been stopped from making war, even though Congress never actually declared it. The courts haven't gone against him. Does this mean that now that the president can declare war instead of Congress, despite what Article I section 8? That's what the court might as well be saying, so gee golly, let's ignore what the Constitution ACTUALLY says.

well first off, the supreme court hasn't really touched a case like this since the civil war... secondly, the reason stuff like this is considered acceptable is because of the part in the constitution calling the president the commander in chief of the military forces.

I feel sorry for you, gopunk. You want a dictatorship.

no, i don't.

You want more power to the government, and less responsibility.

if, by "want more power to the government", you mean "supression of a rebellious judge who has made it his purpose in life to bring religion into our legal system", then yes. and i don't see how any of this affects my responsibility.

You refuse to listen to others who state in plain language what the Constitution says.

well, yes and no. i refuse to believe that some poster on an internet message board is the final authority in how to read and interpret the constitution.

You instead listen to your 'rulers' and refuse to listen to anything else.

Move to Cuba. But first, read this.

if every judge was like moore, cuba wouldn't seem so bad. fortunately, they aren't :)
 

thatsright

Diamond Member
May 1, 2001
3,004
3
81
Hopefully now the national media that is camped out in Bamarama, will pack up there satellite trucks and move on to the next news story of questionable value. Then we can hear about it ad nauseam until we get sick of it again WAY before the media covering it ever picks up on this fact.