Card upgrade advice

[Cookie Monster]

CS source (assuming that this is the type of FPS he plays), war3 and guild wars, his system is perfectly fine.

 

[chnsawalex]

Thanks everyone for your advise it has been a real big help and I would have definitely ended up spending too much on a card that I would not take full advantage of. Also thanks for the random tidbits of insight into the power supply world. That will be something that I will take into account in the future when building a new rig.

I have decided to go with the BFG GeForce 9600 GT Link. It just so happens that Newegg has a 10% off coupon on video cards so it like free shipping.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Enjoy your new card! :beer:

 

[AzN]

Originally posted by: Schmide
The whole point of my original post was the statement, "It cannot run" was not exactly correct. You can easily get a system with a ~100w card to run with 13a on the 12v. Look at the xbitlabs article in my above post.

I'm not going off on anything. I was being civil, waiting for all the facts asking for more information, etc. I like the way you attempt to cage me into a black and white argument. (straw man again)

I did not do the calculations because I was lacking information about his system (i.e CPU). After I did the calculations, I stated, "I wouldn't recommend a gtx260"

Is it safe? There's no point to your argument.

Originally posted by: Schmide

Originally posted by: Azn
P.S.. 50watt CPU? 30watts for chipset? You are cutting it way too low in favor of your argument.

About the edit: Seriously WTF. 4 posts above yours any argument was rendered moot by the calculations I made. (straw man)

I suppose everyone is straw man if they edit their post. :roll:

 

[Schmide]

Originally posted by: Azn

Originally posted by: Schmide
The whole point of my original post was the statement, "It cannot run" was not exactly correct. You can easily get a system with a ~100w card to run with 13a on the 12v. Look at the xbitlabs article in my above post.

I'm not going off on anything. I was being civil, waiting for all the facts asking for more information, etc. I like the way you attempt to cage me into a black and white argument. (straw man again)

I did not do the calculations because I was lacking information about his system (i.e CPU). After I did the calculations, I stated, "I wouldn't recommend a gtx260"

Is it safe? There's no point to your argument.

Yes it's safe to run a 13a system on a 18a PSU (72%), but you seem to ignore any point I make and argue as if I'm the general opposition to everything. I'd like to see you concede one point just to prove you can debate. So far you are so right your poop doesn't stink.

Originally posted by: Azn

Originally posted by: Schmide

Originally posted by: Azn
P.S.. 50watt CPU? 30watts for chipset? You are cutting it way too low in favor of your argument.

About the edit: Seriously WTF. 4 posts above yours any argument was rendered moot by the calculations I made. (straw man)

I suppose everyone is straw man if they edit their post. :roll:

Do you even understand what a straw man is? I really wonder?

The above edits do not change what I was saying. (That's your job I guess, cough cough straw man hint)

If I do edit something that may change the meaning of something, i.e. more than just punctuation/spelling, I put EDIT: and explain the difference. (More than many here. Others should try it!!! :light

 

[AzN]

Originally posted by: Schmide
Yes it's safe to run a 13a system on a 18a PSU (72%), but you seem to ignore any point I make and argue as if I'm the general opposition to everything. I'd like to see you concede one point just to prove you can debate. So far you are so right your poop doesn't stink.

Do you even understand how power supplies are rated? Are you even qualified to give out a detailed analysis or are you just rambling with some numbers you made up?

How did you calculate 13A with a GTX 260 on a fully loaded system? You made up bunch of numbers to sway your argument. You didn't even calculate things like aging capacitors, sustained wattage at running temperatures, etc.. Safe? Sounds like full of shit to me. You run a GTX260 with a 18A rated power supply and tell us how it runs for you. :roll:

Do you even understand what a straw man is? I really wonder?

The above edits do not change what I was saying. (That's your job I guess, cough cough straw man hint)

If I do edit something that may change the meaning of something, i.e. more than just punctuation/spelling, I put EDIT: and explain the difference. (More than many here. Others should try it!!! :light

the time I posted the original message was 5:54pm and edited by 5:57pm.

You first reply was at 6:06pm and then called me a straw man at 6:12pm. Seems to me you are the one with the problem. Perhaps you should reply before someone edit their post instead of calling people names. probably the sensible thing to do but then you aren't.

 

[alkalinetaupehat]

Azn and Schmide need to get a room or STFU. This is the second thread in a week where I found these two arguing. Do we need a mod for you guys?

 

[Schmide]

I would love a mod in here. I think I'm more than fair in my arguments, but I will reply when replied to. That's just curious.

 

[Schmide]

Originally posted by: Azn
Do you even understand how power supplies are rated? Are you even qualified to give out a detailed analysis or are you just rambling with some numbers you made up?

I've read enough articles, installed enough components, put my clamp meter on enough systems, to understand power.

Originally posted by: Azn
How did you calculate 13A with a GTX 260 on a fully loaded system? You made up bunch of numbers to sway your argument. You didn't even calculate things like aging capacitors, sustained wattage at running temperatures, etc.. Safe? Sounds like full of shit to me. You run a GTX260 with a 18A rated power supply and tell us how it runs for you. :roll:

It's more of a testament to nVidia's power savings in the 55nm shrink to say it would be even a possibility. People do unsafe things every day. You overclock don't you? In fact in an above post you state how your system crashes if you raise your voltage too much on a 450w PSU. Huh. Again, I'm not recommending it, just saying it is a possibility for functionality.

I'm giving an extreme average for each component, adding them up, etc. More than I've seen you do. If you want some references. Fine. Take the xbitlabs article.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articl...m-wattage_6.html#sect0

They use a 4850 as the graphics card. (110w) (13.2a prime + fur)

Look at the power rating of a 4850 here

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articl...n-hd4850_14.html#sect0

Then look at the power of a 55nm gtx 260 (109w)

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articl...-216-55nm_5.html#sect0

If anything my ratings were over the actual power requirements. Erroring on the side of caution.

Originally posted by: Azn
the time I posted the original message was 5:54pm and edited by 5:57pm.

You first reply was at 6:06pm and then called me a straw man at 6:12pm. Seems to me you are the one with the problem. Perhaps you should reply before someone edit their post instead of calling people names. probably the sensible thing to do but then you aren't.

I called you out on straw man because you're arguing things I did not say. By definition that is a straw man. I gave the reason for the edit. There was a math error. You can look at the difference from a quoted text below the original, it's not much difference and I gave a edit reason.

You on the other hand, as you can see from my quote, changed what you said, without an edit explanation. Huh.

 

[AzN]

Originally posted by: Schmide
I would love a mod in here. I think I'm more than fair in my arguments, but I will reply when replied to. That's just curious.

Fair? like suggesting you can run a GTX 260 system with 18A rated power supply and make up bunch of numbers you made up to sway your argument? I just wonder what unfair would be for you.

http://www.anandtech.com/casec...howdoc.aspx?i=3413&p=1

GTX 260 eats about as much wattage as 8800gtx at full load. that means it eats about 150-180watts just for the card itself depending what version you have. Now could you tell me how you got 13A for a fully loaded GTX260 system? You made up some numbers so you can argue. That's the basis of your arguments and calling people names.

 

[Schmide]

Originally posted by: Azn

Originally posted by: Schmide
I would love a mod in here. I think I'm more than fair in my arguments, but I will reply when replied to. That's just curious.

Fair? like suggesting you can run a GTX 260 system with 18A rated power supply and make up bunch of numbers you made up to sway your argument? I just wonder what unfair would be for you.

http://www.anandtech.com/casec...howdoc.aspx?i=3413&p=1

GTX 260 eats about as much wattage as 8800gtx at full load. that means it eats about 150-180watts just for the card itself depending what version you have. Now could you tell me how you got 13A for a fully loaded GTX260 system? You made up some numbers so you can argue. That's the basis of your arguments and calling people names.

Yes a 65nm gtx 260 uses ~150w, a 55nm gtx 260 ~110w

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articl...-216-55nm_5.html#sect0

Edit: By the way. The anandtech power article figures, as far as I can tell are taken at the wall, which means they are 20% more than the DC usage.

 

[toyota]

Originally posted by: Schmide

Originally posted by: Azn

Originally posted by: Schmide
The whole point of my original post was the statement, "It cannot run" was not exactly correct. You can easily get a system with a ~100w card to run with 13a on the 12v. Look at the xbitlabs article in my above post.

I'm not going off on anything. I was being civil, waiting for all the facts asking for more information, etc. I like the way you attempt to cage me into a black and white argument. (straw man again)

I did not do the calculations because I was lacking information about his system (i.e CPU). After I did the calculations, I stated, "I wouldn't recommend a gtx260"

Is it safe? There's no point to your argument.

Yes it's safe to run a 13a system on a 18a PSU (72%), but you seem to ignore any point I make and argue as if I'm the general opposition to everything. I'd like to see you concede one point just to prove you can debate. So far you are so right your poop doesn't stink.

Originally posted by: Azn

Originally posted by: Schmide

Originally posted by: Azn
P.S.. 50watt CPU? 30watts for chipset? You are cutting it way too low in favor of your argument.

About the edit: Seriously WTF. 4 posts above yours any argument was rendered moot by the calculations I made. (straw man)

I suppose everyone is straw man if they edit their post. :roll:

Do you even understand what a straw man is? I really wonder?

The above edits do not change what I was saying. (That's your job I guess, cough cough straw man hint)

If I do edit something that may change the meaning of something, i.e. more than just punctuation/spelling, I put EDIT: and explain the difference. (More than many here. Others should try it!!! :light

you call it 18 amps when its convenient yet your own link and earlier comment shows that psu can only deliver 16 amps. thats why I always tell people when dealing with lower quality psus the rated wattage and amps are usually not even possible. under load the op even with the 9600gt he just ordered will be pushing his long term luck with his current setup that has 5 drives. 16 amps is not enough for a system like that when real world load and heat starts taking its toll especially after months of use. overrated power supplies like the ops are the main reason that card makers use such high psu wattage recommendations.

 

[AzN]

Originally posted by: Schmide
I've read enough articles, installed enough components, put my clamp meter on enough systems, to understand power.

So reading articles make you an expert? If you know so much why didn't you calculate things like aging capacitors nor did you mention power supplies dropping wattage at operating temperature?

It's more of a testament to nVidia's power savings in the 55nm shrink to say it would be even a possibility. People do unsafe things every day. You overclock don't you? In fact in an above post you state how your system crashes if you raise your voltage too much on a 450w PSU. Huh. Again, I'm not recommending it, just saying it is a possibility for functionality.

Overclocking with tested stability is not the same as running undervolted power supply. Undervolted power supply can literally kill all your components while overclocked CPU doesn't. 55nm is not that more power saving than the 65nm part. At full load it saves 15 watts at best.

Obviously you didn't get what I was saying how I raised my voltage on my CPU to 1.4volts and my computer would crash. that's because my power supply couldn't sustain at load with the added voltage even though it's rated at 30A on 12V. Before I had GTX260 I did not have this issue and could raise my CPU to 1.55 volts without a problem which points to my power supply.

I'm giving an extreme average for each component, adding them up, etc. More than I've seen you do. If you want some references. Fine. Take the xbitlabs article.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articl...m-wattage_6.html#sect0

They use a 4850 as the graphics card. (110w) (13.2a prime + fur)

Look at the power rating of a 4850 here

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articl...n-hd4850_14.html#sect0

Then look at the power of a 55nm gtx 260 (109w)

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articl...-216-55nm_5.html#sect0

If anything my ratings were over the actual power requirements. Erroring on the side of caution.

Over actual power requirements? Like 50watt cpu's? You are at best giving the lowest of actual power requirement for a dual core. 30 watt chipset? Try more like 40-60watts. Let's not forget things like USB devices, etc...

Obviously you only read 1 site to believe whatever you want to believe nor did you actually do the GTX260 power testings yourself. Do you even own a GTX260?

First you said a fully loaded GTX 260 system is 14A and then later changed it to 13A. Seems to me you are the straw man. Again you should really practice what you preach.

I called you out on straw man because you're arguing things I did not say. By definition that is a straw man. I gave the reason for the edit. There was a math error. You can look at the difference from a quoted text below the original, it's not much difference and I gave a edit reason.

You on the other hand, as you can see from my quote, changed what you said, without an edit explanation. Huh.

We would actually have to be arguing about something first and then I would have to substitute something similar without discussing the original post to be a straw man. Except that you replied first and than replied to the edited post does not make me a straw man.

Seems to me you just have some issues. Perhaps therapy?

 

[AzN]

Originally posted by: Schmide
Yes a 65nm gtx 260 uses ~150w, a 55nm gtx 260 ~110w

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articl...-216-55nm_5.html#sect0

Edit: By the way. The anandtech power article figures, as far as I can tell are taken at the wall, which means they are 20% more than the DC usage.

ROFL. There are many web sites that say other wise. At best they are about 15watts in difference at load. Try some other web sites when you are ready to have a broader view and just don't hand pick articles to sway your arguments.

Oh BTW. Anandtech power figures are not taken from the wall.

http://www.anandtech.com/casec...howdoc.aspx?i=3413&p=8

They measured by GPU power requirement by connector. Surely you can't get this from the wall. :laugh:

 

[Schmide]

Originally posted by: toyota
you call it 18 amps when its convenient yet your own link and earlier comment shows that psu can only deliver 16 amps. thats why I always tell people when dealing with lower quality psus the rated wattage and amps are usually not even possible. under load the op even with the 9600gt he just ordered will be pushing his long term luck with his current setup that has 5 drives. 16 amps is not enough for a system like that when real world load and heat starts taking its toll especially after months of use.

I like the way you blame me for this one. I asked for more information before giving advice. I gave figures when I could. I agree with you. We can only hope the OP has a Winchester, Newcastle, Venice and the 9600gt is more of the 60w than the 80w version. Because -

25w Winchester 30w Newcastle/Venice 65w Newcastle - CPU: AMD Athlon 64 4000+ 2.4ghz

25w-65w CPU
60w-80w 9600gt
30w MB: EPoX 9NPA+Ultra
10w Memory: 4 sticks of PC3200
45w 2x sata hard drives 7200rpm and 1x IDE
30w 1 dvd drive and 1 dvd burner
10w fans

Low 210w High 270w

14a to 18a

Now the things the OP has going, drive ratings of 15w is usually taken at spin up and can be much less at runtime, both DVD drive would not be used at the same time, the above rating is an upper bound, and the lesser single core CPU could keep the 9600gt from drawing maximum power.

 

[chnsawalex]

Originally posted by: Schmide
We can only hope the OP has a Winchester, Newcastle, Venice and the 9600gt is more of the 60w than the 80w version. Because -

25w Winchester 30w Newcastle/Venice 65w Newcastle - CPU: AMD Athlon 64 4000+ 2.4ghz

25w-65w CPU
60w-80w 9600gt
30w MB: EPoX 9NPA+Ultra
10w Memory: 4 sticks of PC3200
45w 2x sata hard drives 7200rpm and 1x IDE
30w 1 dvd drive and 1 dvd burner
10w fans

Low 210w High 270w

14a to 18a

Now the things the OP has going, drive ratings of 15w is usually taken at spin up and can be much less at runtime, both DVD drive would not be used at the same time, the above rating is an upper bound, and the lesser single core CPU could keep the 9600gt from drawing maximum power.

According to CPU-Z it is a San Diego, 90nm

I never use my 2nd DVD drive and probably should take it out of my system. Also 2 of the hard drive are idle most of the time one just having an install of windows7 the other backup.

 

[Schmide]

Originally posted by: chnsawalex

Originally posted by: Schmide
We can only hope the OP has a Winchester, Newcastle, Venice and the 9600gt is more of the 60w than the 80w version. Because -

25w Winchester 30w Newcastle/Venice 65w Newcastle - CPU: AMD Athlon 64 4000+ 2.4ghz

25w-65w CPU
60w-80w 9600gt
30w MB: EPoX 9NPA+Ultra
10w Memory: 4 sticks of PC3200
45w 2x sata hard drives 7200rpm and 1x IDE
30w 1 dvd drive and 1 dvd burner
10w fans

Low 210w High 270w

14a to 18a

Now the things the OP has going, drive ratings of 15w is usually taken at spin up and can be much less at runtime, both DVD drive would not be used at the same time, the above rating is an upper bound, and the lesser single core CPU could keep the 9600gt from drawing maximum power.

According to CPU-Z it is a San Diego, 90nm

I never use my 2nd DVD drive and probably should take it out of my system. Also 2 of the hard drive are idle most of the time one just having an install of windows7 the other backup.

Well the San Diego is one of the more power hungry CPUs of that class. Think in the 60-70w range. I know all this power talk can be a bit much, I still think with a 9600gt you should be OK.

 

[Schmide]

Originally posted by: Azn

Over actual power requirements? Like 50watt cpu's? You are at best giving the lowest of actual power requirement for a dual core. 30 watt chipset? Try more like 40-60watts. Let's not forget things like USB devices, etc...

Obviously you only read 1 site to believe whatever you want to believe nor did you actually do the GTX260 power testings yourself. Do you even own a GTX260?

First you said a fully loaded GTX 260 system is 14A and then later changed it to 13A. Seems to me you are the straw man. Again you should really practice what you preach.

I like xbitlabs because their numbers almost always add up and they explain in great detail how they test. I love how quick you are to discredit them.

Sadly the anandtech article, does not go this far and if you compare one set of numbers to another. The 9600gt for example.

http://www.anandtech.com/casec...howdoc.aspx?i=3413&p=1
http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3234&p=2

the parts add up to more than the whole even with the 80% efficiency factor.

About the USB. Duh they run off the 5v. Sorry.

I will admit there are 60+w chipsets - example x58, but this class of system is more of the 30w. Here's a good article on this. lost circuits I7 power

Again for the last time, I said it could be possible, I never recommended it. Even with the so called fudged numbers it was too much. This is where the straw man comes in. If I say, I don't recommend this, and you say I did. WTF

My system

q6600 3.5ghz dual 4870s 512 on a 600w OCZ watercooled everything (soon to be OCZ 700w)

Edit: bad quote termination

 

[Schmide]

About HD and DVD power consumption, from the xbitlabs server power profile

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articl.../system-wattage_5.html

See chart as well.

Somewhat surprisingly, the hardest moment for a file server is when the spindles of all the HDDs are spinning up simultaneously. In the process of normal operation the HDDs? electronics load the +5V rail considerably while the +12V consumption is rather low.

Since the VC and the CPU are not loaded at startup, there should be plenty of 12v.

 

[AzN]

Originally posted by: Schmide
I like xbitlabs because their numbers almost always add up and they explain in great detail how they test. I love how quick you are to discredit them.

Sadly the anandtech article, does not go this far and if you compare one set of numbers to another. The 9600gt for example.

http://www.anandtech.com/casec...howdoc.aspx?i=3413&p=1
http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3234&p=2

the parts add up to more than the whole even with the 80% efficiency factor.

About the USB. Duh they run off the 5v. Sorry.

I will admit there are 60+w chipsets - example x58, but this class of system is more of the 30w. Here's a good article on this. lost circuits I7 power

Again for the last time, I said it could be possible, I never recommended it. Even with the so called fudged numbers it was too much. This is where the straw man comes in. If I say, I don't recommend this, and you say I did. WTF

My system

q6600 3.5ghz dual 4870s 512 on a 600w OCZ watercooled everything (soon to be OCZ 700w)

Edit: bad quote termination

I don't feel that xbit is some site I don't trust but I also read other sites to compare instead of believing whatever they tell you.

I never said you recommended it but it's a pointless argument without much credibility with some numbers you made up to sway your arguing opposition.

 

[AzN]

Originally posted by: Schmide

25w-65w CPU
60w-80w 9600gt
30w MB: EPoX 9NPA+Ultra
10w Memory: 4 sticks of PC3200
45w 2x sata hard drives 7200rpm and 1x IDE
30w 1 dvd drive and 1 dvd burner
10w fans

Low 210w High 270w

14a to 18a

So Low 210watt is 14A?

High 270w is 18A?

You do know that 12 watts = 1A right?

or is there some crazy math you tried to calculate this?

 

[toyota]

Originally posted by: Schmide

Originally posted by: toyota
you call it 18 amps when its convenient yet your own link and earlier comment shows that psu can only deliver 16 amps. thats why I always tell people when dealing with lower quality psus the rated wattage and amps are usually not even possible. under load the op even with the 9600gt he just ordered will be pushing his long term luck with his current setup that has 5 drives. 16 amps is not enough for a system like that when real world load and heat starts taking its toll especially after months of use.

I like the way you blame me for this one. I asked for more information before giving advice. I gave figures when I could. I agree with you. We can only hope the OP has a Winchester, Newcastle, Venice and the 9600gt is more of the 60w than the 80w version. Because -

25w Winchester 30w Newcastle/Venice 65w Newcastle - CPU: AMD Athlon 64 4000+ 2.4ghz

25w-65w CPU
60w-80w 9600gt
30w MB: EPoX 9NPA+Ultra
10w Memory: 4 sticks of PC3200
45w 2x sata hard drives 7200rpm and 1x IDE
30w 1 dvd drive and 1 dvd burner
10w fans

Low 210w High 270w

14a to 18a

Now the things the OP has going, drive ratings of 15w is usually taken at spin up and can be much less at runtime, both DVD drive would not be used at the same time, the above rating is an upper bound, and the lesser single core CPU could keep the 9600gt from drawing maximum power.

I believe he has a 89watt cpu.

 

[Schmide]

Originally posted by: Azn

Originally posted by: Schmide

25w-65w CPU
60w-80w 9600gt
30w MB: EPoX 9NPA+Ultra
10w Memory: 4 sticks of PC3200
45w 2x sata hard drives 7200rpm and 1x IDE
30w 1 dvd drive and 1 dvd burner
10w fans

Low 210w High 270w

14a to 18a

So Low 210watt is 14A?

High 270w is 18A?

You do know that 12 watts = 1A right?

or is there some crazy math you tried to calculate this?

As I explained in my first calculation

80% on the 12v = 180w = 15a = 83% of the 12v.

I just didn't elaborate it that time. (my bad) You can't claim that 100% wattage is 12v and 80% is a good overestimate. Look at the xbitlabs figures. You're so bent on tearing down the numbers, you don't even see them for what they are. Good estimates on maximum numbers.

 

[Tempered81]

Regarding the PSU power argument here: I personally always overbuy on the PSU. This is critical to me now - because I used to think it didn't make a difference. I thought a no-name generic 600watt would be fine for me. After experiencing disaster from a generic underpowered cheap-o PSU, I went with a Corsair 750, and would never go back to anything less than top-of-the line, good brand, high wattage.

 

[Schmide]

Originally posted by: toyota
I believe he has a 89watt cpu.

Yes TDP thermal design power is 89w, actual wattage is much less.

Here's a good table.

lostcircuits