Car engine damaged - oil drain plug missing

[jlee]

Very few cars, and none being normal vehicles, come with oil squirters. Out of all the high performance cars I've owned (over 15) only two have even come standard with that. One being a 2010 cobalt ss/tc and a 2014 Fiesta ST

The Toyota 3SGTE has them (1991+ MR2 Turbo, Celica AllTrac), as does the 2JZ-GTE (Mk4 Supra TT), the AE92's high compression 4AGE (Corolla GTS), the (diesel) 2LTE (Hilux/Surf/4Runner/Prado), the 2ZZ-GE (2000+ Celica GTS), the 2AZ-FE (Scion tC, RAV4, Camry, Corolla XRS, Scion xB), the 2005+ 2UZ-FE (4.7l V8 in the Tundra, 4Runner, Landcruiser, GX470, LX470, Sequoia), the 3UR-FE (5.7l V8 in the newer Tundras)..and quite possibly more.

 

[Sabrewings]

I once saw a four stroke outboard run with no oil pressure, broken drive to the pump, for 2.5 hours. When I tore it down there was not enough damage to warrant a rebuild. The pump and its drive shaft were replaced. I never heard from the customer again.

Is it built with particularly loose tolerances?

The two engines I've torn down with this sort of failure failed within a couple miles of the oil pressure light coming on, both at highway speeds. One was a GM 60* V6 and the other a Subaru 2.5L. Both had seized into their bores, the Subaru doing it so hard that one of the rods was bent. Most of the rod bearings were spun with irreparable damage done to the crank surface. Bores were useless. Just junked the whole thing.

Very few cars, and none being normal vehicles, come with oil squirters. Out of all the high performance cars I've owned (over 15) only two have even come standard with that. One being a 2010 cobalt ss/tc and a 2014 Fiesta ST

You're right. Wrong terminology. I was referring to the oiling channels in the piston that run from the oil control ring to the wrist pin. These carry away a lot of heat that the rings can't transfer into the block.

As jlee pointed out, they are semi common but not exactly what I was referring to anyway.

 

[tjtech94]

Brings back old memories of an ex's Civic - someone left an old crush washer stuck to the block during and oil change and everything leaked out...

 

[PottedMeat]

About 25 minutes, actually

i like the sodium silicate cash for clunkers ones

 

[natto fire]

The Toyota 3SGTE has them (1991+ MR2 Turbo, Celica AllTrac), as does the 2JZ-GTE (Mk4 Supra TT), the AE92's high compression 4AGE (Corolla GTS), the (diesel) 2LTE (Hilux/Surf/4Runner/Prado), the 2ZZ-GE (2000+ Celica GTS), the 2AZ-FE (Scion tC, RAV4, Camry, Corolla XRS, Scion xB), the 2005+ 2UZ-FE (4.7l V8 in the Tundra, 4Runner, Landcruiser, GX470, LX470, Sequoia), the 3UR-FE (5.7l V8 in the newer Tundras)..and quite possibly more.

Off the top of my head on the Honda side, there is the B16A1, B16A3, (Civic Si, Del Sol) B18C1, B18C5 (Integra GS-R/Type R) H22A (Prelude) C30A (NSX). I know Nissan, and Mitsubishi all have somewhat common motors with them too. So not nearly as rare as SP is trying to make them sound.

 

[nakedfrog]

Off the top of my head on the Honda side, there is the B16A1, B16A3, (Civic Si, Del Sol) B18C1, B18C5 (Integra GS-R/Type R) H22A (Prelude) C30A (NSX). I know Nissan, and Mitsubishi all have somewhat common motors with them too. So not nearly as rare as SP is trying to make them sound.

Add Mazda to the list, the 1.6L and 1.8L motors in the first couple generations of Miata had them, and they used those motors in other cars as well.

 

[michal1980]

There are so many holes in this story that aren't adding up.

Let me try and just explain, not saying you are wrong. I'm wondering how legit this new dealer you went to is.



This is not normal for a lack of oil, or oil pressure. Unless it went into limp mode (to protect itself due to lack of oil pressure for more than x minutes). Also you mention nothing about a CEL (check engine light), or low oil light. A low oil light comes on any time the vehicle detects 2 quarts low or more on oil ( this is for all manufactures ). So there is no way you went from no light, to engine stalling without this light ever coming on.

You then say



Again, this sounds like the CSL (check system lighting) function whenever you turn the vehicle on and all the lights illuminate. This is so you know all lights work, at this point it sounds like the the engine was simply died, from who knows what reason. I'd bet recall.

You then say



The disptick only registers 2 quarts of oil (again this is across all manufactures). So if you seen any on this dipstick, then your vehicle was not empty on oil, low, sure, but this if you seen any on the stick this is why your low oil pressure light never came on. Because you were never more than 2 quarts low, you are just assuming you were due to lack of knowledge (not making fun).

You then say you seen oil drain out, these are very sensative to adding oil, too fast it runs out of the dipstick tube, or can easily overflow through the top of the filler neck, which is placed under a very cool looking plastic shroud, so you probably never seen oil "coming straight out" you probably simply added to fast and seen it coming out.

Heres where it gets sticky



So YOU never visibly seen the oil drain plug missing before the vehicle went there.


My bet, off your story. Dealership you went to is trying to get a customer pay engine job over a warranty one because it pays twice as good.

-10 years working at a dealership in service.

your experience fails you.

no mention of low oil anything in a 2011 sonata manual

http://cdn.dealereprocess.com/cdn/servicemanuals/hyundai/2011-sonata.pdf

 

[CurrentlyPissed]

your experience fails you.

no mention of low oil anything in a 2011 sonata manual

http://cdn.dealereprocess.com/cdn/servicemanuals/hyundai/2011-sonata.pdf

I suggest re-reading my post.

Says right here in the manual you linked.

Engine oil pressure
warning light
This warning light indicates the engine oil
pressure is low.
If the warning light illuminates while driving:
1. Drive safely to the side of the road and
stop.
2. With the engine off, check the engine
oil level. If the level is low, add oil as
required.
If the warning light remains on after
adding oil or if oil is not available, call an
authorized HYUNDAI dealer.

I even explained they incorporated them into the same light. I appreciate the effort though, at least you tried to find factual evidence.

 

[jlee]

I suggest re-reading my post.

Says right here in the manual you linked.



I even explained they incorporated them into the same light. I appreciate the effort though, at least you tried to find factual evidence.

It says that it indicates that oil pressure is low. If your level is low enough that the pickup tube will not pull in enough oil, then yes - you'll see a warning light. However, the triggering event is a lack of oil pressure, not a lack of oil level.

 

[Ferzerp]

Yeah, I'm not sure in what world this random person lives where all cars have low oil lights. Few do.

I have to laugh at the interpretation that the pressure warning is some how a level warning because the first thing to do if you have low pressure is to check the oil level.

 

[CurrentlyPissed]

Oh Anandtech, never change. I enjoy these moments.

 

[LTC8K6]

I suggest re-reading my post.

Says right here in the manual you linked.



I even explained they incorporated them into the same light. I appreciate the effort though, at least you tried to find factual evidence.

I think you misunderstand.

They tell you to check the oil level when the pressure light comes on in case that is the reason for the lack of oil pressure, not because the light indicates a low oil level.

The light indicates low oil pressure.

 

[nakedfrog]

Oh Anandtech, never change. I enjoy these moments.

These moments where a stream of people that I know for a fact are well-informed on the subject are disagreeing with your claim that manufacturers use the oil pressure light as a low oil level light as well, or where they point out a number of common cars that have oil squirters after you've just claimed only fancy-schmancy cars have them?

 

[CurrentlyPissed]

These moments where a stream of people that I know for a fact are well-informed on the subject are disagreeing with your claim that manufacturers use the oil pressure light as a low oil level light as well, or where they point out a number of common cars that have oil squirters after you've just claimed only fancy-schmancy cars have them?

I see where they pointed out Turbo Miatas, Civic SIs, Supras, 240s, Integra Type Rs, NSXs, Land Rovers, and more. Only "Common" I see is the Corrolla platform that was mentioned. Which, I will admit certainly caught me by surprise. Seeing as it's not a turbo application, nor a performance one.

I think you misunderstand.

They tell you to check the oil level when the pressure light comes on in case that is the reason for the lack of oil pressure, not because the light indicates a low oil level.

The light indicates low oil pressure.

It's not a misunderstanding. It's a knowledge of how the system works. Manufactures are condensing lights into multi function lights to keep customers from causing concern and bringing their vehicle in.

Low pressure lights have worked for low oil for many years. Because as I said before, on a standard fill vehicle (4.4-5qt) range at 2 quarts+ low it will trigger the low oil pressure light, there is no need to have a secondary low oil light anymore on vehicles. Ones that now use oil timing advance systems now incorporate it into the CEL system with PO codes for timing advancement functions. Vehicles will now actually disable timing advance systems if pressure is not satisfactory.

As pointed above in the manual, it tells you to refill and if it does NOT go off to seek a dealer. Because yes, if it goes low enough you will see the light on. If it was a pressure issue (oil pump, pick up tube collapse, screen clog, whatever it may be) it's not going to just rectify itself by adding oil.

 

[jlee]

I see where they pointed out Turbo Miatas, Civic SIs, Supras, 240s, Integra Type Rs, NSXs, Land Rovers, and more. Only "Common" I see is the Corrolla platform that was mentioned. Which, I will admit certainly caught me by surprise. Seeing as it's not a turbo application, nor a performance one.

Yeah, those Scions, Camrys, Tundras and 4Runners are hard to find....

Also, the Miata was not turbocharged until the 2004-2005 Mazdaspeed model.

 

[CurrentlyPissed]

Yeah, those Scions, Camrys, Tundras and 4Runners are hard to find....

Also, the Miata was not turbocharged until the 2004-2005 Mazdaspeed model.

Scion shares the corolla platform, which I did admit is surprising. I can't see any reason that vehicle would need them.

To the OP, sorry that my "help intended" post trashed your thread.

 

[nakedfrog]

I see where they pointed out Turbo Miatas, Civic SIs, Supras, 240s, Integra Type Rs, NSXs, Land Rovers, and more. Only "Common" I see is the Corrolla platform that was mentioned. Which, I will admit certainly caught me by surprise. Seeing as it's not a turbo application, nor a performance one.

Not turbo Miatas, stock, naturally aspirated ones. The only kind Mazda sold until the MSM that jlee mentioned. Yeah, the engine was designed for a turbo, but the fact remains that they aren't performance cars, and are pretty common.

 

[Zenmervolt]

If it was a pressure issue (oil pump, pick up tube collapse, screen clog, whatever it may be) it's not going to just rectify itself by adding oil.

The number one most common cause of low oil pressure is an absence of sufficient oil. That's why they tell you to check the oil level. That and because the average motorist can't really drop the oil pan to inspect the pickup tube on the side of a busy freeway.

The blunt fact is that the oil pressure light measures only pressure. Nothing else. It does not, in any reasonable fashion, monitor oil level.

Just because low oil level can cause the low-pressure light to come on if the pickup becomes un-covered does not mean that it is truly functioning as an oil level warning. There is exactly zero functional difference between the oil pressure light in my 1976 914, my 1982 Honda motorcycle, my 1986 944 Turbo, my 1998 Volvo, and my 2007 Harley. On all these vehicles the light is simply triggered by a pressure sensor when pressure falls below a certain amount. It is a "dumb" sensor that operates at a single minimum pressure and does not take any other factors into account. There is no capability to accurately measure oil level without using the dipstick.

Using low pressure as a proxy for low oil level would be a catastrophically stupid idea as by the time the pickup tube begins to be uncovered you have already lost a significant amount of oil. Remember, the role of oil is not simply to lubricate, but also to trap contaminants and maintain a suitable ph to avoid acidity in the car's engine. The point of low-level sensors is not to avoid the problems from losing lubricant, but rather to avoid the problems associated with not having sufficient oil to appropriately handle contaminants and acidity, as well as ensuring that there is sufficient oil to handle the thermal demands by allowing a portion of the oil to cool off in the sump rather than continuously circulating.

TL;DR: Just because the low-pressure light will eventually start coming on due to catastrophically low oil levels does not mean that the low-pressure light should be, or is intended to be, used as a proxy for oil level.

ZV

 

[CurrentlyPissed]

Not turbo Miatas, stock, naturally aspirated ones. The only kind Mazda sold until the MSM that jlee mentioned. Yeah, the engine was designed for a turbo, but the fact remains that they aren't performance cars, and are pretty common.

Does not make the generalization as "common" correct. You can find a few cars, here and there, across a single generation or two of that model type. However, that does not make it common.

However I shouldn't of said none being normal vehicles, it was over zealous.

 

[CurrentlyPissed]

The number one most common cause of low oil pressure is an absence of sufficient oil. That's why they tell you to check the oil level. That and because the average motorist can't really drop the oil pan to inspect the pickup tube on the side of a busy freeway.

The blunt fact is that the oil pressure light measures only pressure. Nothing else. It does not, in any reasonable fashion, monitor oil level.

Just because low oil level can cause the low-pressure light to come on if the pickup becomes un-covered does not mean that it is truly functioning as an oil level warning. There is exactly zero functional difference between the oil pressure light in my 1976 914, my 1982 Honda motorcycle, my 1986 944 Turbo, my 1998 Volvo, and my 2007 Harley. On all these vehicles the light is simply triggered by a pressure sensor when pressure falls below a certain amount. It is a "dumb" sensor that operates at a single minimum pressure and does not take any other factors into account. There is no capability to accurately measure oil level without using the dipstick.

Using low pressure as a proxy for low oil level would be a catastrophically stupid idea as by the time the pickup tube begins to be uncovered you have already lost a significant amount of oil. Remember, the role of oil is not simply to lubricate, but also to trap contaminants and maintain a suitable ph to avoid acidity in the car's engine. The point of low-level sensors is not to avoid the problems from losing lubricant, but rather to avoid the problems associated with not having sufficient oil to appropriately handle contaminants and acidity, as well as ensuring that there is sufficient oil to handle the thermal demands by allowing a portion of the oil to cool off in the sump rather than continuously circulating.

TL;DR: Just because the low-pressure light will eventually start coming on due to catastrophically low oil levels does not mean that the low-pressure light should be, or is intended to be, used as a proxy for oil level.

ZV

While this is a very well thought, and drawn out post. And I appreciate the time you took to craft it. No one is saying you are wrong, or right. People came at me saying there is no "low oil" light on the vehicle. And that is incorrect.

 

[nakedfrog]

Does not make the generalization as "common" correct. You can find a few cars, here and there, across a single generation or two of that model type. However, that does not make it common.

However I shouldn't of said none being normal vehicles, it was over zealous.

Fair enough.

 

[Zenmervolt]

People came at me saying there is no "low oil" light on the vehicle. And that is incorrect.

No, it is absolutely correct. Only an idiot would treat the low-pressure light as equivalent to an oil-level monitor.

ZV

 

[CurrentlyPissed]

No, it is absolutely correct. Only an idiot would treat the low-pressure light as equivalent to an oil-level monitor.

ZV

I never said it was equivalent. I think you need to refer to my original post as to how this conversation even started. It seems like you are back peddling off others misconceptions. Low pressure light, can, and will come on from low oil. He never once said this light came on until after the vehicle already started losing power, and shutting down.

At two quarts low on his Sonata, the low pressure light will come on, which is why something is amiss with either the story, or what the dealer is telling him. If the drain plug did in fact come out, the light would of came on long before engine failure.

He also said there was some oil on the dipstick, surface tension or not, this is why you always wipe and redip the dipstick. If he did this, and there was any oil on that dipstick, then his drain plug certainly was not out of the vehicle.

 

[Zenmervolt]

I never said it was equivalent.

I read your post.

A low oil light comes on any time the vehicle detects 2 quarts low or more on oil ( this is for all manufactures ).

This is patently false.

While, in some circumstances, two quarts low may be sufficient to cause the pickup tube to lose coverage, you cannot say this for absolute certainty as this depends on the vehicle's orientation at the time.

Further, the light that is coming on in such a situation is the oil pressure light, triggered by a pressure sensor.

Finally, the vehicle is not "detect[ing]" oil level in any way. It is detecting pressure and only pressure.

When these patent inaccuracies of yours were pointed out, you attempted to assert that the oil pressure light was somehow a legitimate and intended substitute for an oil level monitoring light. It is not and no engineer intends it to be used as such, despite your claim that the low pressure light is "used for both."

Had you simply said, "I meant that the oil pickup tube would almost certainly be uncovered at 2 quarts low on a 5 quart system and that, therefore, the oil pressure light would be on," I doubt anyone would have continued to press the issue. However, you said that the oil pressure light is "used for both" which implies that the light is intended to have a use equivalent to an oil level monitor. This is not the case.

It's certainly possible that wasn't what you meant to say, but the fact remains that it is indeed what you actually did say.

At two quarts low on his Sonata, the low pressure light will come on...

I agree that at two quarts low it is likely that the oil pickup would be uncovered given that, in the Sonata, that would mean he only had 3 quarts in a 5 quart system. However, on smooth level ground without corners it's also possible, that it was just barely OK. Without knowing more, it's really not possible to tell.

That said, at 2 quarts low, the pickup tube should definitely be coming exposed in longer corners like entry and exit ramps due to the centrifugal effects of inertia on the oil remaining in the sump which would cause the low pressure light to at least flicker in either right or left corners depending on where the pickup tube is oriented on the Sonata's engine.

ZV

 

[michal1980]

I suggest re-reading my post.

Says right here in the manual you linked.



I even explained they incorporated them into the same light. I appreciate the effort though, at least you tried to find factual evidence.

when wrong double down.

There is no low oil level light on a sonata.