Car engine damaged - oil drain plug missing

[Zivic]

And have the steering lock up? I'm not sure I agree with you.

you can turn the engine off without the steering locking up.

like I said, do what you need to do....

 

[Zivic]

The way I read the OP it didn't seem like he was sure of what was going on until well after the fact. Excluding all the posters here, I'd like to see an average driver turn the key just far enough in this fairly stressful situation. So many of them can't even stay in their own lane with a perfectly healthy vehicle. I doubt they'd be able to turn the key just so, find a gap, pull over, all while the car is slowing down, in a construction zone with no shoulder. ATG posters yes, because they are all awesome, but the general texting while swerving public?

op had no clue what was going on... and drove for his estimate of 1.5 miles... so minutes mostly likely.

I sure as heck would have pulled over LONG before a mile+ down the road. it isn't that hard to turn the key back one click.... maybe that makes me awesome, but everything I suggested isn't all that difficult. I say that knowing the vast majority of drivers can't drive a standard trans; but that doesn't make it difficult.

the way OP describes the situation leaves a lot of questions as CurrentlyPissed has posted. about. I could answer some of the questions he posted about, but all in all, I have to agree there holes in what is being said. I simply chalk that up to OP not really knowing what's going on, didn't know what really was happening when this went down, and less than stellar recall and story telling when posting about it here.

 

[compnovice]

There are so many holes in this story that aren't adding up.

Let me try and just explain, not saying you are wrong. I'm wondering how legit this new dealer you went to is.



This is not normal for a lack of oil, or oil pressure. Unless it went into limp mode (to protect itself due to lack of oil pressure for more than x minutes). Also you mention nothing about a CEL (check engine light), or low oil light. A low oil light comes on any time the vehicle detects 2 quarts low or more on oil ( this is for all manufactures ). So there is no way you went from no light, to engine stalling without this light ever coming on.

You then say



Again, this sounds like the CSL (check system lighting) function whenever you turn the vehicle on and all the lights illuminate. This is so you know all lights work, at this point it sounds like the the engine was simply died, from who knows what reason. I'd bet recall.

You then say



The disptick only registers 2 quarts of oil (again this is across all manufactures). So if you seen any on this dipstick, then your vehicle was not empty on oil, low, sure, but this if you seen any on the stick this is why your low oil pressure light never came on. Because you were never more than 2 quarts low, you are just assuming you were due to lack of knowledge (not making fun).

You then say you seen oil drain out, these are very sensative to adding oil, too fast it runs out of the dipstick tube, or can easily overflow through the top of the filler neck, which is placed under a very cool looking plastic shroud, so you probably never seen oil "coming straight out" you probably simply added to fast and seen it coming out.

Heres where it gets sticky



So YOU never visibly seen the oil drain plug missing before the vehicle went there.


My bet, off your story. Dealership you went to is trying to get a customer pay engine job over a warranty one because it pays twice as good.

-10 years working at a dealership in service.

I am not a mechanic and will try to answer everything to the best of my understanding.
Yes, the first time I felt the car decelerating I did not see any lights (I am sure because I checked the speed when it felt like deceleration) . It did start responding again before the 2nd round of non-responsiveness when the light came on. I don't know why it happened, but it did.

The dipstick was wet towards the bottom end, below the min level. Now if it was old oil just hanging on due to surface tension that is possible.

After I filled up 2 quarts I looked under the car and that is when I noticed the oil draining steadily. This is when I called up the towing. I assumed that there was a hole in the oil pan. I got a call from the dealer the next day and he did mention that there is oil under the car at the dealership too (no idea if it was remnant from the 2 quarts I put or from the old oil).

 

[jlee]

A low oil light comes on any time the vehicle detects 2 quarts low or more on oil ( this is for all manufactures ).

Not all cars have oil level sensors.

 

[CurrentlyPissed]

Not all cars have oil level sensors.

Anything in the last 15 years does. That's what nifty little red oil can light is for. Unless you have something within the last ~5-7 years with a digital display, then it'll give you a promto readout

 

[jlee]

Anything in the last 15 years does. That's what nifty little red oil can light is for. Unless you have something within the last ~5-7 years with a digital display, then it'll give you a promto readout

The red light is oil pressure, not level.

 

[CurrentlyPissed]

The red light is oil pressure, not level.

It's actually used as both. :thumbsup:

 

[jlee]

It's actually used as both. :thumbsup:

Not in anything I've ever owned, to my knowledge. Source?

It may serve dual purposes in some vehicles, but the default 'red oil' light means you have abysmally low oil pressure.

 

[CurrentlyPissed]

More than welcome to research on your own. It's been this way for years, when you go low enough on oil (usually around the 2-3 low quart mark on a standard 5 quart vehicle ((most are 4.4-5 quart fill nowadays)) you will get low pressure. So they started including it into the low pressure light. Vehicles that typically have more than 5 quart fill (high performance cars, trucks, etc) will usually have a "low oil" separate light now because you can still maintain proper pressure.

Newer vehicles now using timing advance systems off of oil pressure removed this light and included it into the CEL system, which is why you will get codes such as timing under advanced, timing advancement system fault, etc type codes now due to low oil pressure.

Not much point side tracking his original post any more on this subject, if you want to continue this, maybe we should create a new thread.

 

[compnovice]

i got pictures from the dealer and cannot tell from it if the pan threads are stripped. He also says there is some animal carcass splatter on the underside but it should not have caused the damage as it is just splatter. We did run over a dead raccoon carcass that was projected by a car in front of us a couple of months back and have not gone to a car wash ever since. The pictures don't indicate any damage to the underside except some dried up splatter.

After the lights came on, i probably drove a mile and half as there was no safe location to stop before that.

UPDATE: I talked to the dealer again. He is changing his story and now saying that whatever hit has caused the drain plug to fall off and is saying its a fresh hit. I am 100% positive I did not hit anything. Any splatter on the underside is old and dried out.

He is saying that he has forwarded the pictures to hyundai and I need to go through my insurance. If the insurance determines that the oil change dealer is responsible, they can go after him.

 

[CurrentlyPissed]

You should read what I said, I wouldn't be surprised if they know the situation they are in and just damaged the car themselves. Some dealers are shady.

 

[Ketchup]

UPDATE: I talked to the dealer again. He is changing his story and now saying that whatever hit has caused the drain plug to fall off and is saying its a fresh hit. I am 100% positive I did not hit anything. Any splatter on the underside is old and dried out.

He is saying that he has forwarded the pictures to hyundai and I need to go through my insurance. If the insurance determines that the oil change dealer is responsible, they can go after him.

Just now joining an already-interesting thread. What a story. Nothing in this particular post is a surprise to me. You definitely need to get your insurance company involved.

In my mind, you will be covered no matter what if you have decent coverage, it will just turn into a question of which insurance company (yours or that of the dealership that performed the last oil change) foots the bill.

 

[compnovice]

Just now joining an already-interesting thread. What a story. Nothing in this particular post is a surprise to me. You definitely need to get your insurance company involved.

In my mind, you will be covered no matter what if you have decent coverage, it will just turn into a question of which insurance company (yours or that of the dealership that performed the last oil change) foots the bill.

I certainly hope so, and I hope the dealer's insurance pays. i do have a good comprehensive policy with low deductible.

Does it make sense for me to have the car towed to the oil change dealer and ask them to diagnose and repair? I was thinking of doing this, but now probably it does not make sense if the tow-to dealer has already reported it to Hyundai and the other dealer will probably have access to this information.

 

[Ketchup]

I certainly hope so, and I hope the dealer's insurance pays. i do have a good comprehensive policy with low deductible.

Does it make sense for me to have the car towed to the oil change dealer and ask them to diagnose and repair? I was thinking of doing this, but now probably it does not make sense if the tow-to dealer has already reported it to Hyundai and the other dealer will probably have access to this information.

I wouldn't touch the car until you are instructed to do so by your insurance company.

 

[jlee]

More than welcome to research on your own. It's been this way for years, when you go low enough on oil (usually around the 2-3 low quart mark on a standard 5 quart vehicle ((most are 4.4-5 quart fill nowadays)) you will get low pressure. So they started including it into the low pressure light. Vehicles that typically have more than 5 quart fill (high performance cars, trucks, etc) will usually have a "low oil" separate light now because you can still maintain proper pressure.

Newer vehicles now using timing advance systems off of oil pressure removed this light and included it into the CEL system, which is why you will get codes such as timing under advanced, timing advancement system fault, etc type codes now due to low oil pressure.

Not much point side tracking his original post any more on this subject, if you want to continue this, maybe we should create a new thread.

Maybe that's why, because that's basically all I own. :hmm:

 

[steppinthrax]

I'd be curious to see pictures of the bearings after an engine was ran without oil...it might still run once refilled, but would think there'd be some bearing damage done.

I recently rebuilt a 2 cylinder Kohler KT17 tractor engine. This is one of those big boy tractor engines, not that Briggs and Stratton bullshit you get at HD. Anyway, I got everything together, new rings, new gaskets, seals. I started the engine up. Ran it with oil. Within a few seconds the oil pressure went to 0. It ran for a few minutes w/o oil pressure. I cut the engine off. Checked the simple shit. My thought the oil gauge was bad or the line was kinked. I started the engine again, ran it for about a minute.

I realized then something serious was wrong. I pulled the front of the bearing cover off and found a tiny piece of aluminum jammed in the oil pump rotar and snapped the tension pin that holds the gear in place. So the gear was spinning on a shaft, but not moving it. I tore the engine complete apart again and carefully miked and checked everything. The engine was in the same condition as it was before I assembled it.

This engine has a oil sump built into the block. The oil pump is the only method for engine oil to get to the crank bearing and connecting rod. The crankshaft doesn't "dip down into the oil" like some other small engines.

 

[steppinthrax]

Personally if it were me. I would began tearing the engine down and start ordering new gaskets, rings, bearings and pistons.

Hopefully you have deep scoring marks in the walls and you can get it oversized. The cylinder head should be in ok shape, but not sure.

Never ran an engine w/o oil and had that shit happened. But I've seen people recover an engine from being seized. The pistons looked ate up and at worse case they had to replace the entire block.

You can pull a engine from a junkyard for like 175. Get it machined and use those parts. At this point junkyard parts are prob better than what you have right now!!!!

 

[LTC8K6]

It's actually used as both. :thumbsup:

I hope not.

One is generally far more serious than the other.

 

[steppinthrax]

I hope not.

One is generally far more serious than the other.

If my understanding is correct. The oil pressure sensor in most vehicles just measures pressure, not the presence of oil.

The oil sump or supply from the pump goes to the oil pan. When you have low oil the sump will occasionally suck air. The oil pump can't really compress air.

The question is once the oil light comes on is it like a latch (electronically). Otherwise it would flicker.

 

[KoolAidKid]

I have no scientific proof, but I would guess you have a matter of seconds once you've lost oil pressure.

About 25 minutes, actually

 

[Midwayman]

I knew a guy in college that knew a road was flooded after a hurricane came through but chose to drive through the 4 feet of water anyway. It ruined his engine but he made a successful insurance claim.

Actually did that once. On the way to the hospital during a heavy rainstorm and my wife had just been admitted. I made a questionable decision to ford a deeper than usual puddle and hydrolocked my engine. Insurance covered it through comprehensive.

 

[shabby]

About 25 minutes, actually

And even more if you use prolong/duralube...

 

[Sabrewings]

And even more if you use prolong/duralube...

Sure, at idling. Bearing forces from inertial loads go up exponentially as engine RPM increases. Driving on the road will spin a bearing very quickly without oil. Also, without oil, you don't get any piston squirters so the pistons over heat and seize in the bores hard.

No engine would last 25 minutes of highway running with no oil.

 

[RLGL]

Sure, at idling. Bearing forces from inertial loads go up exponentially as engine RPM increases. Driving on the road will spin a bearing very quickly without oil. Also, without oil, you don't get any piston squirters so the pistons over heat and seize in the bores hard.

No engine would last 25 minutes of highway running with no oil.

I once saw a four stroke outboard run with no oil pressure, broken drive to the pump, for 2.5 hours. When I tore it down there was not enough damage to warrant a rebuild. The pump and its drive shaft were replaced. I never heard from the customer again.

 

[CurrentlyPissed]

Sure, at idling. Bearing forces from inertial loads go up exponentially as engine RPM increases. Driving on the road will spin a bearing very quickly without oil. Also, without oil, you don't get any piston squirters so the pistons over heat and seize in the bores hard.

No engine would last 25 minutes of highway running with no oil.

Very few cars, and none being normal vehicles, come with oil squirters. Out of all the high performance cars I've owned (over 15) only two have even come standard with that. One being a 2010 cobalt ss/tc and a 2014 Fiesta ST