Car doesn't start because of weak battery. But starts after 4 tries. Why?

[Ferzerp]

The overly high current for that type of battery may be heating it up, and if it is cold, that would explain the short rise in delivered amps.

 

[HeXen]

It's for running a laptop and charging batteries. When we're working we have to leave the laptop running and processing on things while the car is turned off, so we need to keep it plugged in. Sometimes we forget to turn the system off at night and since the inverter is connected directly to the battery, in the morning the battery is drained. Do that a few times with a normal car battery and it becomes toast pretty quick. My thinking was to get a deep cycle and if it gets discharged on accident, that's fine. They're built for that. I really didn't want to rig up some complex electrical system on my own.

Then you still NEED the isolator and another battery like Kinectics, it's not hard at all to setup, it's simply just another Positive and Negative wire, you can get heavy guage copper wires cheapest from Welding suppliers usually.

If you don't then 2 things are inevitable. You can constantly replace dying batteries and eventually a cooked starter cause cranking on low batteries is hard on them and fully discharging such batteries shortens their lifespan. those kinectics type batteries will probably do the best in that regard, the isolator will protect your main battery from discharge but still allow the second battery to charge.

By protecting the main battery, you also protect your starter as it will have the amps it needs without strain and no more having to jump start, which also doesn't help anything.
Or just leave the car running all the time or get a generator.

Where i work, we leave our trucks running all day, their diesels but we have batteries and stuff to charge too, but their company trucks.

 

[leper84]

But having the amount of juice flowing actually INCREASE (assuming mechanical resistance remains constant, an increase in cranking speed would indicate this) is abnormal, and could perhaps be the result of a bad gel cell battery?

This is actually very believable and I actually had something similar happen to me recently.

When I bought my current car is came with a redtop. Once it started getting colder around here it either ruptured a cell or the shrinkage made it apparent of a ruptured cell. Car had zero power, everything clean & tight. Shake the battery and the interior lights would come back on and give me enough juice for a slow crank. Got a new battery, tested the old one the following morning when it was cold, failed miserably. Tested again when it warmed up that afternoon, no charger, passed without an issue.

I could see a small, small imperfection in a cell (or multiple small imperfections) covering up when the passing current warms up the battery. Considering how stunningly fast Optima's QC has gone to absolute shit since they've been bought out (my redtop lasted 1 1/2 years after the production date) I wouldn't put it past anything for it to have a weird issue like that.

 

[Zap]

Could old gas possibly cause a similar problem of the engine cranking but not quite catching ignition for a few tries?

 

[LTC8K6]

Some cylinders are probably gradually beginning to fire inefficiently, speeding up the cranking, and then eventually it starts.

 

[imagoon]

Have you also tried using an external charger to charge the battery? Your cars alternator is rarely rated to charge a fully discharged battery. It can also shutdown due to overheating and never really top off the battery.

Deep cycles still can die when fully discharged. The main difference between a deep cycle and automotive is the lead plate size. The plates can flex as they discharge and if they flex to far the current and voltage of the cell goes out of wack. There are more smaller plates in a automotive battery letting it deliver large bursts of power (ie starter.) Deep cycles are larger plates -> less peak current but can handle being discharged more. However "0%" is basically death for both types.

I also agree that it is possible the current draw is warming the battery and might give it a bit of extra boost.

Try attaching a true battery charger and fully charging the battery. Make sure to get one for deep cycles and one that has a "slow to 100%" charge. Basically if the battery is still good a thorough charging and slowly taking it from ~85 -> 100% can clear the plates. A normal automotive charge may not charge that cell properly. Your car might not either.

Starting, Marine, and Deep-Cycle Batteries


Starting (sometimes called SLI, for starting, lighting, ignition) batteries are commonly used to start and run engines. Engine starters need a very large starting current for a very short time. Starting batteries have a large number of thin plates for maximum surface area. The plates are composed of a Lead "sponge", similar in appearance to a very fine foam sponge. This gives a very large surface area, but if deep cycled, this sponge will quickly be consumed and fall to the bottom of the cells. Automotive batteries will generally fail after 30-150 deep cycles if deep cycled, while they may last for thousands of cycles in normal starting use (2-5% discharge).
Deep cycle batteries are designed to be discharged down as much as 80% time after time, and have much thicker plates. The major difference between a true deep cycle battery and others is that the plates are SOLID Lead plates - not sponge. This gives less surface area, thus less "instant" power like starting batteries need. Although these can be cycled down to 20% charge, the best lifespan vs cost method is to keep the average cycle at about 50% discharge.
Unfortunately, it is often impossible to tell what you are really buying in some of the discount stores or places that specialize in automotive batteries. The golf car battery is quite popular for small systems and RV's. The problem is that "golf car" refers to a size of battery case (commonly called GC-2, or T-105), not the type or construction - so the quality and construction of a golf car battery can vary considerably - ranging from the cheap off brand with thin plates up the true deep cycle brands, such as Crown, Trojan, etc. In general, you get what you pay for.
Marine batteries are usually a "hybrid", and fall between the starting and deep-cycle batteries, though a few (Rolls-Surrette and Concorde, for example) are true deep cycle. In the hybrid, the plates may be composed of Lead sponge, but it is coarser and heavier than that used in starting batteries. It is often hard to tell what you are getting in a "marine" battery, but most are a hybrid. Starting batteries are usually rated at "CCA", or cold cranking amps, or "MCA", Marine cranking amps - the same as "CA". Any battery with the capacity shown in CA or MCA may or may not be a true deep-cycle battery. It is sometimes hard to tell, as the term deep cycle is often overused - we have even seen the term "deep cycle" used in automotive starting battery advertising. CA and MCA ratings are at 32 degrees F, while CCA is at zero degree F. Unfortunately, the only positive way to tell with some batteries is to buy one and cut it open - not much of an option.

Using a deep cycle battery as a starting battery

There is generally no problem with this, providing that allowance is made for the lower cranking amps compared to a similar size starting battery. As a general rule, if you are going to use a true deep cycle battery (such as the Concorde SunXtender) also as a starting battery, it should be oversized about 20% compared to the existing or recommended starting battery group size to get the same cranking amps. That is about the same as replacing a group 24 with a group 31. With modern engines with fuel injection and electronic ignition, it generally takes much less battery power to crank and start them, so raw cranking amps is less important than it used to be. On the other hand, many cars, boats, and RV's are more heavily loaded with power sucking "appliances", such as megawatt stereo systems etc. that are more suited for deep cycle batteries. We have used the Concorde SunXtender AGM batteries in some of our vehicles with no problems.

It will not hurt a deep cycle battery to be used as a starting battery, but for the same size battery they cannot supply as much cranking amps as a regular starting battery and is usually much more expensive.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

Do you have a voltmeter? Can you check the voltage on the battery after it has sat unused (not charging or discharging) for say, 12 or 24 hours, and tell us what it is?

 

[phucheneh]

Meh, too much trying for his amount of replying. He still needs to, IMHO, get a voltmeter as just stated. Open circuit voltage is worth checking, but unless it's under 12v, it's not terribly conclusive. I've seen cars crank fine on high 11's. Granted, they wouldn't be cranking for long...

Checking the voltage under load will tell the story.

I'm vaguely familiar with 'deep cycle' batteries...rarely encountered, AFAIK RV's are their most common use. But the ones I have seem have always been the Optima yellow tops, and I was unaware that they could not sustain the cranking of a typical car engine. Seems like I've seen plenty of V8's with them (granted, they might've had an extra one tucked away...).

I don't know how plate size translates with those batteries. The entire cell is spiral, which makes its construction more like that of an electrolytic cap, I believe. I would think that would translate to a bigger surface area...but the whole 'gel cell' thing just nixes any comparison for me.

My advice: go to Advance, buy a 'silver' or whatever battery for like 60 bucks. Problem likely solved. If not, go from there.

I say Advance simply because I like them the best for 'cheap' batteries. You don't pay any less at Autozone or even Walmart, I don't believe. But you sure get a shittier battery.

A decent house brand parts store battery will probably outlast an Optima nine times out of ten.

 

[phucheneh]

Could old gas possibly cause a similar problem of the engine cranking but not quite catching ignition for a few tries?

With old gas, you're essentially cranking on a lean mixture. So yeah, it might take a slight bit longer and/or sputter and struggle a bit. But no symptoms like what the OP is describing.

 

[Apex]

I have a Honda Fit with an Optima Yellow Top "deep cycle" battery. I got it because I was planning on running lots of electronics and would discharge the battery a lot of times.

I left it sitting for 4 months while in China.
It was completely dead when I got back but after driving around it has no problem starting in the middle of the day. But in the mornings in CA it almost always fails to start the first time.

So I wait for 30 seconds and try starting the car again, pumping the gas pedal while at it. Still can't make it. Wait for another 30 seconds. Nope. Wait some more. And then it starts.

I'm curious what's going on here. I would think that with repeated ignition attempts the battery would get weaker so it would become *less* possible to start, not *more*...

In winter though up in Tahoe I just have to straight up jump the battery every time in the mornings.

I'm guessing it was pretty cold when you did this?

From what I understand, deep cycle AGM batteries can act a bit more like LiFePO4 batteries than lead acid batteries.

Cranking it a few times generates heat within the battery, lowering the internal resistance, allowing it to put out more juice.

Here's a video demonstration of a Ballistic LiFePo4 battery doing this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBfvR1EJJBk&hd=1

 

[phucheneh]

Lithium...Iron...Phosphate?

Wait, no...what the hell is 'Po'?

This isn't chemistry class. But yeah, you and others seem to be confirming the suspicions of...me and others. He needs to ditch the Optima battery.

edit: Oh shit, I was actually right on 'phosphate'...I remembered something from school. Mind blown. I just saw it in lowercase and was like 'they're making Polonium batteries?!'

 

[Apex]

Lithium...Iron...Phosphate?

Wait, no...what the hell is 'Po'?

This isn't chemistry class. But yeah, you and others seem to be confirming the suspicions of...me and others. He needs to ditch the Optima battery.

edit: Oh shit, I was actually right on 'phosphate'...I remembered something from school. Mind blown. I just saw it in lowercase and was like 'they're making Polonium batteries?!'

Yeah, you got it right. Lithium Iron Phosphate. It doesn't have the energy density of Lithium Cobalt Oxide (LiCoO2) batteries, but also doesn't have the explode-y/catch fire-y properties either (ahem, Boeing Dreamliner).

Here's the 16-cell Ballistic LiFePo4 battery I use in my car. It weighs in at 3 lbs and is rated at 28Ah and 500 CCA (that's my little tea cup next to it):

 

[nerp]

Leave it to fuzzy to do something totally weird. This time it's a car battery. The problems people create for themselves . . .

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

Lithium...Iron...Phosphate?

Wait, no...what the hell is 'Po'?

This isn't chemistry class. But yeah, you and others seem to be confirming the suspicions of...me and others. He needs to ditch the Optima battery.

edit: Oh shit, I was actually right on 'phosphate'...I remembered something from school. Mind blown. I just saw it in lowercase and was like 'they're making Polonium batteries?!'

Are Optima batteries supposed to suck or something?

 

[phucheneh]

They are not the same as a standard lead-acid battery. You paid extra to get a battery that will probably not live as long as a cheap one.

Also, a public service announcement: If you refuse to check things with a voltmeter, there is no reason to post threads about your no-start. No one has psychic powers that will allow them to diagnose the problem through the internet. Your options are-

A) Replace battery; cross fingers and hope you fixed the problem.
B) Remove battery, take to parts store for charging and testing. Cross fingers and hope the employees there aren't retarded.
C) Take it to a shop. Also, do something with your fingers.

Fourth option is test it yourself. With a cheap-ass voltmeter and a helper (for turning the key as needed while you use the meter under the hood), you can diagnose every single possible starting and charging problem. Easily.

 

[Toastedlightly]

If you turn the key forward, wait 3 seconds, turn it back then forward, wait 3 seconds, then try to start it, does it start right away?

If so, that is a fuel drain back issue.

 

[disappoint]

Are Optima batteries supposed to suck or something?

Have you read the reviews on them all over the internet?

 

[Pacfanweb]

More properly called an air pedal.

Not even that on some cars now, all it is is a sensor.

Haven't read the whole thread, but the answer is, when you heat up the battery, it will increase the power of the battery. Putting a load on the battery heats it.

So if your battery is just barely short of cranking the car, sometimes you can load it a couple of times, and the power increase will be enough to get over the hump, so to speak.

 

[imagoon]

I don't know how plate size translates with those batteries. The entire cell is spiral, which makes its construction more like that of an electrolytic cap, I believe. I would think that would translate to a bigger surface area...but the whole 'gel cell' thing just nixes any comparison for me.

For the deep cycles they spiral a solid piece of lead for the plate. In the automotive start battery the "plate" is more of a lead mesh woven like cloth and then spiraled. The woven mesh has much higher surface area allowing for more peak voltage at the trade off that the mesh can decay faster esp when fully discharged.

I also agree with you and recommend a $60 battery as a replacement.

 

[imagoon]

Are Optima batteries supposed to suck or something?

Nope but user abuse kills them all the same as all other batteries. Running them down past 20% -> good chance the battery is now dead because the lead plate will corrode. Discharging them that low isn't a normal use case.

I would call optima, they may replace it anyway if it is in warranty.

 

[phucheneh]

Damn, it's been a while since I've bought a battery. More like $100 for a generic parts store battery now. What made them go up? Metals have gotten more expensive...but I'm pretty sure lead hasn't gone up 50% or more, has it?

If you buy from Advance, they seem to always have a 20% coupon code or something, though. If you can use it online, they'll take it in the store (according to the store I use, anyway). Not sure if there are similar discounts out there for others. Probably Autozone, but seriously...I know it's anecdotal, but those Duralast batteries fail more often than every single other brand I encounter combined.

Perhaps it's simply because 'Autozone battery' tends to go along with 'crap vehicle,' so they see a lot more exposure to bad voltage regulators, failing alternators (simply low output, or a bad rectifier), bad cabling, improper mounting...

Still, I just consider it piece of mind to avoid those 'red tops'.

I will try and beat this into someone yet again, though: multimeter multimeter multimeter.

http://www.sears.com/craftsman-digit...9&blockType=G9

http://www.autozone.com/autozone/ac...multimeter/_/N-26lr?itemIdentifier=64471_0_0_

There are plenty of manual ranging meters available for about $20 that are plenty adequate for voltage checks.

The ampere function is almost guaranteed to never be needed, and if you're not doing complex electrical diag, you won't use ohms, either. Voltage will be your relative indicator of resistance.

 

[randay]

optima batteries require 14.7 volts to charge properly, your honda fit probably isnt charging your battery.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

Northern Arizona Wind & Sun has been a well-known alternative energy firm for ages. They have a very informative FAQ I first read in the late 90s before we got a system and went off-grid. Here's what they have to say about this exact issue:

Using a deep cycle battery as a starting battery

There is generally no problem with this, providing that allowance is made for the lower cranking amps compared to a similar size starting battery. As a general rule, if you are going to use a true deep cycle battery (such as the Concorde SunXtender) also as a starting battery, it should be oversized about 20% compared to the existing or recommended starting battery group size to get the same cranking amps. That is about the same as replacing a group 24 with a group 31. With modern engines with fuel injection and electronic ignition, it generally takes much less battery power to crank and start them, so raw cranking amps is less important than it used to be. On the other hand, many cars, boats, and RV's are more heavily loaded with power sucking "appliances", such as megawatt stereo systems etc. that are more suited for deep cycle batteries. We have used the Concorde SunXtender AGM batteries in some of our vehicles with no problems.


It will not hurt a deep cycle battery to be used as a starting battery, but for the same size battery they cannot supply as much cranking amps as a regular starting battery and is usually much more expensive.

This actually surprised me. I thought they'd say it was not recommended.

Anyway, as others have said, with no information, not even a steady-state voltage, nobody can really help you much.

 

[phucheneh]

So, even without his input P), working hypothesis:

Optima battery worked for a while, but was probably not capable of providing the same peak cranking amps as his factory battery- granted, the factory battery should be capable of delivering far in excess of what is needed to start the car, given a good charge. But this was probably step in on the chain of 'fail.'

Step two, inadequate charging voltage. Battery's state of charge is gradually reduced, and likely its actual capacity along with it.

Step three, battery too weak to start car. If this took a long time (years), it can probably be attributed to both slow battery death and general (normal) degradation of cables and connections (i.e. already inadequate voltage became maybe just a critical tenth or two lower).

Solution: REPLACE YOUR DAMNED BATTERY. THEY BOTH TEST AND REPLACE FOR FREE AT THE PARTS STORE. JBFAC*!



(*jesus-butt-fucking-ass-christ, I made up a new internet acronym)

 

[HeXen]

So, even without his input P), working hypothesis:

Optima battery worked for a while, but was probably not capable of providing the same peak cranking amps as his factory battery- granted, the factory battery should be capable of delivering far in excess of what is needed to start the car, given a good charge. But this was probably step in on the chain of 'fail.'

Step two, inadequate charging voltage. Battery's state of charge is gradually reduced, and likely its actual capacity along with it.

Step three, battery too weak to start car. If this took a long time (years), it can probably be attributed to both slow battery death and general (normal) degradation of cables and connections (i.e. already inadequate voltage became maybe just a critical tenth or two lower).

Solution: REPLACE YOUR DAMNED BATTERY. THEY BOTH TEST AND REPLACE FOR FREE AT THE PARTS STORE. JBFAC*!



(*jesus-butt-fucking-ass-christ, I made up a new internet acronym)

I agree, but if he's just gonna keep running his laptop off the battery and draining it dry, he ends up in the same position within months. For anything that requires one to use with the car not running, they need an isolator and and another battery for it to drain from, preferably one that can handle lots of discharges, it's not like their really expensive if it's an activity you need to do.