Car doesn't start because of weak battery. But starts after 4 tries. Why?

[fuzzybabybunny]

I have a Honda Fit with an Optima Yellow Top "deep cycle" battery. I got it because I was planning on running lots of electronics and would discharge the battery a lot of times.

I left it sitting for 4 months while in China.
It was completely dead when I got back but after driving around it has no problem starting in the middle of the day. But in the mornings in CA it almost always fails to start the first time.

So I wait for 30 seconds and try starting the car again, pumping the gas pedal while at it. Still can't make it. Wait for another 30 seconds. Nope. Wait some more. And then it starts.

I'm curious what's going on here. I would think that with repeated ignition attempts the battery would get weaker so it would become *less* possible to start, not *more*...

In winter though up in Tahoe I just have to straight up jump the battery every time in the mornings.

 

[Raizinman]

Hmmm.... Using a deep cycle battery? Pumping the gas?

Sound more like operator error than anything else. Deep cycle batteries are not designed for cars. Their charging and discharge rates are much different, it will throw off your charging computer. Get a regular battery.

Pumping the gas will not do anything except burn off your frustration and wear out your gas pedal. The Honda Fit is not a carbureted vehicle.

Cannot imagine why anyone would need a deep cycle battery for a pasenger car, but if you need to run electronics in your car or such, get a jumper box or some other mode of electrical storage.

 

[amdhunter]

Don't pump the pedal, you'll just flood your engine.

 

[phucheneh]

Don't pump the pedal, you'll just flood your engine.

LOL, saying this is as silly and pumping the pedal in the first place.

Don't pump the pedal...because it does nothing. Except that when you bottom it, the engine cuts fuel ('clear flood mode'). The only time to interact with the pedal when starting an EFI car is when you have a poor idle condition...i.e. that car needs a little revving to keep it from dying at a cold idle. Best way to do that is not pumping (as if trying to prime a carbed engine), but simply holding slight pressure on the pedal.

OP, need more info. Is the engine cranking at normal speed? If it's cranking normally but not starting, it ain't battery-related.

If it's cranking, does the car 'try' to start? Any sputtering or anything?

Once the car starts, does it run normally? Did you test drive it?

 

[amdhunter]

LOL, saying this is as silly and pumping the pedal in the first place.

Don't pump the pedal...because it does nothing. Except that when you bottom it, the engine cuts fuel ('clear flood mode'). The only time to interact with the pedal when starting an EFI car is when you have a poor idle condition...i.e. that car needs a little revving to keep it from dying at a cold idle. Best way to do that is not pumping (as if trying to prime a carbed engine), but simply holding slightly pressure on the pedal.

OP, need more info. Is the engine cranking at normal speed? If it's cranking normally but not starting, it ain't battery-related.

If it's cranking, does the car 'try' to start? Any sputtering or anything?

Once the car starts, does it run normally? Did you test drive it?

Ah, I always thought pumping would spray gas into the engine. I kind of knew keeping it down on the floor would help an already flooded engine, as it's part of my RX-8's deflooding procedure.

 

[Raizinman]

Don't pump the pedal, you'll just flood your engine.

You cannot flood a fuel injected engine by pumping the gas.

 

[exdeath]

More properly called an air pedal.

 

[Baked]

I did a quick price check on Optima Yellow top on google... why would anybody drop $200+ (tax + recycling fee) on a battery for a daily commuter? I got my friend a Costco 51R battery for $65, runs perfectly in a Honda Fit.

 

[AdamK47]

Don't pump the pedal, you'll just flood your engine.

As stated before, it won't do anything. All cars today use electronically controlled fuel pumps.

It worked well with my 86 Trans AM. It had a mechanical pump (which I also had to replace at one time).

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

My previous battery died in a year because I ran electronics while the car was off and it would routinely drain the battery completely if I accidentally left it for too long. My car is my office. I figured a deep cycle optima (designed for cars BTW) would be a better battery for my usage

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

Everything is working fine. When I turn the key the engine isn't able to turn because the battery power isn't enough. I can hear it getting closer and closer to turning after each try until it finally turns. Everything else runs completely smooth and normal.

 

[HeXen]

OP should have got this instead
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item...n=productads&gclid=CM2w2o2ZvLUCFeZFMgodR2IAVQ

and this

https://www.google.com/shopping/pro...a=X&ei=pjMgUaLmL86tygG11ICIDw&ved=0CEwQ8wIwAA

If you want to jam the car stereo or whatever it is you're doing, you really need a second battery and an isolator. The isolator will prevent the first battery from dying and use a proper battery for that kind of thing.
Also if you don't, your battery won't last much over a year or two at best.

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

OP should have got this instead
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item...n=productads&gclid=CM2w2o2ZvLUCFeZFMgodR2IAVQ

and this

https://www.google.com/shopping/pro...a=X&ei=pjMgUaLmL86tygG11ICIDw&ved=0CEwQ8wIwAA

If you want to jam the car stereo or whatever it is you're doing, you really need a second battery and an isolator. The isolator will prevent the first battery from dying and use a proper battery for that kind of thing.
Also if you don't, your battery won't last much over a year or two at best.

It's for running a laptop and charging batteries. When we're working we have to leave the laptop running and processing on things while the car is turned off, so we need to keep it plugged in. Sometimes we forget to turn the system off at night and since the inverter is connected directly to the battery, in the morning the battery is drained. Do that a few times with a normal car battery and it becomes toast pretty quick. My thinking was to get a deep cycle and if it gets discharged on accident, that's fine. They're built for that. I really didn't want to rig up some complex electrical system on my own.

 

[LTC8K6]

Let's get one thing clear.

Is the engine not cranking at all, or is it cranking but not starting?

 

[Raizinman]

Get an external jumper box like they have at Harbor Freight for $49. It comes with a 17Amp Hour battery built in and should easily power a laptop for about 7 or 8 hours. Then you can recharge it with your car through the cigarette lighter when driving.

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

Let's get one thing clear.

Is the engine not cranking at all, or is it cranking but not starting?

Cranking.

 

[phucheneh]

Everything is working fine. When I turn the key the engine isn't able to turn because the battery power isn't enough. I can hear it getting closer and closer to turning after each try until it finally turns. Everything else runs completely smooth and normal.

Cranking.

...?

I hate to seem condescending, but sometimes it's best to be as simple as possible: Does it go 'kachuggachuggachugga' when you hold the key forward?

Some poeple seem to get terms confused, using 'crank' or 'turn over' to simply imply that they're turning the key or something. Both of those terms refer to the engine being physically rotated by the starter motor. The 'chugging' is a variation in cranking speed caused by a cylinder reaching its compression stroke, which lugs the starter down momentarily.

Most people have driven enough that they know what a healthy cranking engine sounds like. Variations of such include:

Slow crank. Engine turns slower than expected. Less, eh, 'chugs per minute'.

No crank. Engine does not turn. If noise is heard, it is a rapid clicking, which is the starter trying to kick out the pinion gear (the part that turns the engine), but failing. This happens because the battery has enough power to energize the solenoid that moves said gear, but not enough to turn the engine. So after the gear kicks out and the starter motor tries to turn, it causes a large voltage drop, causing the solenoid to no longer be properly energized, and the pinion gear to retract. This breaks the connection to the starter motor, pinion gear has the voltage to fling itself out again...ect ect rinse repeat clickclickclickclickclick.

Freewheeling. Usually the starter spins but does not turn the engine, so you just hear the whine of an electric motor turning at high speed. Sometimes this is heard as the engine cranks...this means there is no compression adding resistance (timing belt is broken, camshaft(s) are not turning, valves are static and probably lodged open because they're bent).

So...yeah. You didn't need all that info, but it's nice to know it. You'll be one up on 99% of the population when it comes to no-starts.

If you've got an 'intermittent no-crank,' the most likely cause would be an ignition switch or starter relay. Possibly a bad cable or terminal connection; but this is a lot less likely to 'fix itself' without interaction.

edit: bad starter (more specifically, solenoid) is also possible; but again, it's unlikely to start working on its own. This is why people use the 'hammer test'- you jar the solenoid to see if it (temporarily) starts working again, as it commonly does.

There's also something called heat soak. Causes the solenoid to not function when the engine is hot. After it cools down, it will work again. This is common on old cars running headers (tubular exhaust manifolds) and a starter with no heat shield.

 

[CA19100]

Did you just jump start it to get it going after the four months, or did you unhook the battery and put it on a proper charger? If you just jumped it and let the alternator charge it, I think you cooked it, honestly.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

My thinking was to get a deep cycle and if it gets discharged on accident, that's fine. They're built for that.

If by "discharged" you mean "discharged until completely dead", I'm afraid you're mistaken.

Deep cycles are designed for 50-80% depletion, and even going down 80% isn't great for life.

If you left it discharged for four months I'm surprised it will function as more than a doorstop.

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

If by "discharged" you mean "discharged until completely dead", I'm afraid you're mistaken.

Deep cycles are designed for 50-80% depletion, and even going down 80% isn't great for life.

If you left it discharged for four months I'm surprised it will function as more than a doorstop.

It was charged up at the beginning of the 4 months, but hadn't been driven at all during those 4 months. When I got back the power door locks didn't respond to the remote and turning the key had no effect.

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

Did you just jump start it to get it going after the four months, or did you unhook the battery and put it on a proper charger? If you just jumped it and let the alternator charge it, I think you cooked it, honestly.

Dammit.

Yeah, I jumped it because I needed to get somewhere, drove it a short distance to get groceries, and I kept doing short distances for about a week until I drove it for 6 hours for a ski trip.

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

And yes, it goes kachugchugchugchug when I turn the key. It just never fires up.. on each subsequent try I hear the chug get stronger, like it's getting closer to firing up. And then on the 3rd or 4th try it chugs a bit and fires up.

2010 Honda Fit.

It doesn't click or anything

 

[Ferzerp]

What does it do if you turn the key to on, leave it there for a bit (1 minute?), then crank it?

 

[phucheneh]

The cranking gradually speeds up? That's...odd. That could possibly be a mechanical issue. Except 'binds' usually happen when hot.

What kind of ambient temps are we talking? Has it got the proper weight oil in it? Changed regularly? No abonormal noise once it starts? Never heard any grinding or other odd noises from the starter?

Mechanical concerns would be in the back of my mind, but first I'd do electrical checks. First step: check the battery voltage (at the posts) while cranking (when slow, and when it speeds up).

The thought crosses my mind that perhaps that Optima battery can cause the issue you're describing because of it's gel cell design. With a normal lead acid battery with liquid electrolyte, the power supplied is gonna be pretty consistent. Unless of course it's going dead (discharged), or is otherwise 'bad.'

But having the amount of juice flowing actually INCREASE (assuming mechanical resistance remains constant, an increase in cranking speed would indicate this) is abnormal, and could perhaps be the result of a bad gel cell battery? I'd have to read more into their workings...never dealt with them; never recommended them. Too pricey and generally seem to get outlasted by 'normal' batteries. Only real advance is the ability to mount them in odd places/positions. And ideally, they should be able to take more abuse...this is why you see them in lots of custom applications including off-road trucks.

 

[C1]

Get rid of the weird battery. They are for different applications, not auto starting especially in cold weather.

There's an outstanding possibility that with the deep cycle battery there's just simply insufficient current available to the ignition (ie, the starter system is sucking 95+% of the available current, particularly when there is no back emf because the starter rotation is tepid;ie, starter motor/circuit acts almost like a dead short).


* A car's battery is designed to provide a very large amount of current for a short period of time. This surge of current is needed to turn the engine over during starting. Once the engine starts, the alternator provides all the power that the car needs, so a car battery may go through its entire life without ever being drained more than 20 percent of its total capacity. Used in this way, a car battery can last a number of years. To achieve a large amount of current, a car battery uses thin plates in order to increase its surface area.

* A deep cycle battery is designed to provide a steady amount of current over a long period of time. A deep cycle battery can provide a surge when needed, but nothing like the surge a car battery can. A deep cycle battery is also designed to be deeply discharged over and over again (something that would ruin a car battery very quickly). To accomplish this, a deep cycle battery uses thicker plates.

A car battery typically has two ratings:

* CCA (Cold Cranking Amps) - The number of amps that the battery can produce at 32 degrees F (0 degrees C) for 30 seconds
* RC (Reserve Capacity) - The number of minutes that the battery can deliver 25 amps while keeping its voltage above 10.5 volts

Typically, a deep cycle battery will have two or three times the RC of a car battery, but will deliver one-half or three-quarters the CCAs. In addition, a deep cycle battery can withstand several hundred total discharge/recharge cycles, while a car battery is not designed to be totally discharged.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question219.htm

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If you need that much juice, then you may have to install a separate supply system (eg, couple extra car batteries mounted in the trunk just for the ancillary special equipments). Also look into how car stereo enthusiasts handle such problems (eg, over sized alternators powering several extra batteries in parallel mounted in the trunk compartment).