Capitalism is evil

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: Insomniak

Originally posted by: miketheidiot
capitalism aka the free market hasn't existed anywhere for a very long time. State capitalism rules the day.

Fair enough, but it has existed longer than the alternatives.

tradition based economies (fuedalism being one) lasted hundreds if not thousands of years. Capital based economies didn't really start until the 1500's, and thats being generous.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: mwtgg

Originally posted by: RobCur
http://www.endymion.ukf.net/capitalism.html

I don't to be rich or anything like that, I'd just want everyone to have an equal chance at life. You are either born poor or born rich just like the good old days
The rich do not pay any taxes as far as I know since they are the one collecting taxes
We work only to pay off debt that should never had been if we never agree to it but most people are clueless and don't see anything wrong with that.
In short it is slavery for the masses. bankers have many ways of tricking us into oweing them money that is just like taking candy from a child without them noticing.
No matter what we do, money controls us more then we control our life.

Those who are too lazy to click, here is a direct quote:
Cap'italism n 1. A system by which the few profit from the exploitation of the many. 2. A mindset addicted to profit, work and debt which values money more than life. 3. An unsustainable ideology obsessed by growth despite our finite plante. 4. The cause of the global, social and ecological crisis. 5. A social system overthrown at the end of the 20th century.......

last, I am sick and tired of being controlled by money. It does not bring happiness for most of us, sometime I wish not to spend any if at all other times I just wish people would value life, happiness more then money.
more money does not mean more happiness, it means you have to work harder to get more often losing all of it at a later time.

Damn those rich people!

By the way, the Top 5% pays 51.4% of the income tax burden. Talk about those dirty rich people paying no taxes!

Income taxes are a very small piece of the federal pie, about 1/3. Most taxes are regressive which comprise the rest of the budget...SS, Excise medicare etc.

Besides hav'nt you ever read Grover Norquest? Basically his dream to to have no taxes on capital. So People like Heinz -Kerry who make hundreds of millions in gains every year pay nothing. Taxes are for wage earners.

I suspect that's what the OP meant. People wealthy enough who use trusts and other shelters to avoid taxes altogether not your doctor making 500K in income paying out the ass in taxes. He's what the real richs patron saint Lenora Helmsley called little people when she coined the maxim "Only the little people pay taxes." Since he has to work for his wages, they are all reported, all taxed at high income rates.


This IMO is the disgrace of our tax system and capitalist system Wage-earners are highly taxed while capitalists are barely taxed at all.

 

[mwtgg]

Originally posted by: Zebo
Income taxes are a very small piece of the federal pie, about 1/3. Most taxes are regressive which comprise the rest of the budget...SS, Excise medicare etc.

Besides hav'nt you ever read Grover Norquest? Basically his dream to to have no taxes on capital. So People like Heinz -Kerry who make hundreds of millions in gains every year pay nothing. Taxes are for wage earners.

I suspect that's what the OP meant. People wealthy enough who use trusts and other shelters to avoid taxes altogether not your doctor making 500K in income paying out the ass in taxes. He's what the real richs patron saint Lenora Helmsley called little people when she coined the maxim "Only the little people pay taxes." Since he has to work for his wages, they are all reported, all taxed at high income rates.

This IMO is the disgrace of our tax system and capitalist system Wage-earners are highly taxed while capitalists are barely taxed at all.

Nah, RobCur is too stupid to know what he means. This is just another troll thread and we all bought into it.

And the Top 1% pays 21.9% of the Total Federal Tax Liabilities, the Top 5% pays 37.4% and the top 10% pays 48.7%. The Highest Quintile pays 64.0%, while the Fourth Quintile pays 18.8%.

 

[Insomniak]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot
tradition based economies (fuedalism being one) lasted hundreds if not thousands of years. Capital based economies didn't really start until the 1500's, and thats being generous.

I think one has to consider scope and consistency. Feudal economies weren't based around currency like modern economies are. Currency was a big factor, sure, but you could still trade some sheep for grain if you were in a tight spot. Barter isn't a major player in today's economics.

I'll agree that capitalism is relatively new idea, but I think it's obvious that it succeeds longer than any of the viable alternatives.

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: her209
The end state of capitalism is when one person has everything and the rest have nothing.

More baseless Marxist horsesh!t.

One person couldn't end up with everything under capitalism because of something called division of labor and comparative advantage.

a few end up with a lot and the rest end up with horsesht

I agree, under state capitalism. You are confusing the current environment with true capitalism. Today's economic environment includes an enormous number of protections, and subsidies from the government. This has created an unnatural accumulation of wealth in the upper class. Businessmen hate true capitalism the most, because they do not like being subjected to extreme competition. Get rid of the government protection racket, and their empires will fall.

An excellent example of this is gambling. It is very difficult to get into the gambling market because the government regulates it so heavily. Hence, the few lucky winners of gambling rights, such as Indian tribes cash in big time. Eliminate the government-sponsored racket and their empire falls. Especially with gambling, which would have a very low entry barrier without the government regulations.

and how exactly do you plan on abolishing government? Sometimes its good to have a practical theory, although hopeless idealism is good too. I'm certain guilty of that one.

If people stopped voting, that would be a good start. And a long overdue tax revolt would be a next great step.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: her209
The end state of capitalism is when one person has everything and the rest have nothing.

More baseless Marxist horsesh!t.

One person couldn't end up with everything under capitalism because of something called division of labor and comparative advantage.

a few end up with a lot and the rest end up with horsesht

I agree, under state capitalism. You are confusing the current environment with true capitalism. Today's economic environment includes an enormous number of protections, and subsidies from the government. This has created an unnatural accumulation of wealth in the upper class. Businessmen hate true capitalism the most, because they do not like being subjected to extreme competition. Get rid of the government protection racket, and their empires will fall.

An excellent example of this is gambling. It is very difficult to get into the gambling market because the government regulates it so heavily. Hence, the few lucky winners of gambling rights, such as Indian tribes cash in big time. Eliminate the government-sponsored racket and their empire falls. Especially with gambling, which would have a very low entry barrier without the government regulations.

and how exactly do you plan on abolishing government? Sometimes its good to have a practical theory, although hopeless idealism is good too. I'm certain guilty of that one.

If people stopped voting, that would be a good start. And a long overdue tax revolt would be a next great step.

if i remember right we've had this arguement before. I don't feel like crapping this thread doing it again.

anyways i wouldn't mind a good tax revolt.

 

[RobCur]

The point of this thread is that I hate money more and more everyday because you are never in control of it unless you are the bankers aka federal reserve. Everyday I fight over money problems, alway bitching and whining about it like everyone else. It's all we care about 99 percent of the time in our life, everything else matters not.
$$$ is worshipped like a god. to talk about money is serious business because to have a lot means financial freedom, to have nothing is to be a homeless person

Material weath means nothing to me, I want knowledge and power to be happy. Laugh all you want now because in the future I maybe the next Jesus Christ.

 

[Orsorum]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: Genx87

when it comes right down to it, if i had the extra income, i would have no problem paying more in taxes.

In our tax system you will

do you have any proof? Last time i checked the highest tax burden fell on the middle/upper middle class, not the wealthy.

Do you have any proof to the contrary?

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: Insomniak
All I'm saying is that there's a livable minimum standard that one has to meet, and after that, disposable income is just that.

If you tax this 'disposable income' so highly, people will simply not work to earn it. Money is the motivator that makes people strive for bigger and better things. Why should I go to work when I know that Bill Gates will float me and my entire extended family for the rest of our lives? I can drop out of high school to retire at the age of 16 and never look back.

 

[Buz2b]

Originally posted by: RobCur
The point of this thread is that I hate money more and more everyday because you are never in control of it unless you are the bankers aka federal reserve. Everyday I fight over money problems, alway bitching and whining about it like everyone else. It's all we care about 99 percent of the time in our life, everything else matters not.
$$$ is worshipped like a god. to talk about money is serious business because to have a lot means financial freedom, to have nothing is to be a homeless person

Material weath means nothing to me, I want knowledge and power to be happy. Laugh all you want now because in the future I maybe the next Jesus Christ.

Well, I think that's proof enough of what nwtgg says...............

Nah, RobCur is too stupid to know what he means. This is just another troll thread and we all bought into it.

I think I'll do the "opt out" thing with this thread and leave him to his trolling/ranting. However, one last parting shot.

Originally posted by miketheidiot
The very rich can afford to pay a much greater % of their income than i can, and until you actually prove that they are doing that, with numbers that aren't so meaningless, i might be convinced.

What part of the CBO report don't you understand? It shows just that; the rich are paying most of the taxes. Your argument that they aren't paying enough of their income is idiotic. For the most part, they are paying what the government requires them to pay. Yes, they are able to invest and shelter some of the income; so could you. Would you have them pay 95% of all taxes; simply because they might be able to? What would you say is your fair share of taxes; NONE? It's obvious that you do not have a clue about taxation in this country. Hell, I'd like to pay less taxes; most would. But that is why we have a system of taxation. No, it's not perfect but it's better than the alternative of a socialist state; which is perhaps what you are used to or seem to be promoting.
Look, read the report. That will answer your questions. Those figures are based on taxes paid, both current and projected. If you don't think the rich pay enough, based on that, then I would suggest you become rich and pay more taxes than the government wants. Set the example for those damned rich folks everywhere. :laugh:

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: RobCur
The point of this thread is that I hate money more and more everyday because you are never in control of it unless you are the bankers aka federal reserve. Everyday I fight over money problems, alway bitching and whining about it like everyone else. It's all we care about 99 percent of the time in our life, everything else matters not.
$$$ is worshipped like a god. to talk about money is serious business because to have a lot means financial freedom, to have nothing is to be a homeless person

Material weath means nothing to me, I want knowledge and power to be happy. Laugh all you want now because in the future I maybe the next Jesus Christ.

Let me fix that for you.:

The point of this thread is that I suck at personal finances and have chosen to simply lay the blame on "the system" and demonize "bankers," rather that admit my own shortcomings and attempt to address them. Everyday I see my problem, and whine about it like a child. It's all people like me care about 99 percent of the time in our life, everything else matters not.

I worship $$$ like a god. To talk about money is serious business to me, because, in my simple mind, to have a lot means I don't have to worry about my poor financial skills, to have nothing is something I equate to being a homeless person.

Material weath means everything to me, even though I proclaim the opposite because I am obviously not good with my money. I wish I only wanted knowledge and power to be happy. Laugh all you want now, because I have a *serious* inferiority complex, mixed with delusions of grandeur.

I think that's a bit more like what you really meant.

 

[Stunt]

Originally posted by: RobCur
Cap'italism n 1. A system by which the few profit from the exploitation of the many. 2. A mindset addicted to profit, work and debt which values money more than life. 3. An unsustainable ideology obsessed by growth despite our finite plante. 4. The cause of the global, social and ecological crisis. 5. A social system overthrown at the end of the 20th century.

This is the worst definition ever. There is so much bias and underlying goals, it connot be called a definition.
Note the site you took it off of is here. The guy is an extremist hippie twit. "I like to think of myself as a Renaissance character. This world is too dull. And the beautiful is the good and the good is beautiful. We are all puritans now. "

I'm sorry but this guy is honestly messed in the head. He thinks the world is so dull, he decides to be a sh!t disturber and argues against some of our most important rights and freedoms: economic rights and freedoms.

cap·i·tal·ism n.
An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development is proportionate to the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market. (dictionary.com)

This is far more accurate.

 

[Moonbeam]

Capitalism is based on competition and competition is based on hate.

We live in a society filled with violence and fear where each seek a personal advantage over the other.

Out of fear and rage we put down the other to better our own competitive edge.

The result is that everybody has been so put down that everybody hates himself.

Out of hidden self hate we inflate our false ego, preening over every accidental success and focusing our creative drive on worthless symbols of success. We hate anybody above us and wipe our feet on those below. Thus we will compete ourselves into extinction as we eat the earth to win.

And how can we exit the game, especially those of us who are winning?

 

[Albatross]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Capitalism is based on competition and competition is based on hate.

We live in a society filled with violence and fear where each seek a personal advantage over the other.

Out of fear and rage we put down the other to better our own competitive edge.

The result is that everybody has been so put down that everybody hates himself.

Out of hidden self hate we inflate our false ego, preening over every accidental success and focusing our creative drive on worthless symbols of success. We hate anybody above us and wipe our feet on those below. Thus we will compete ourselves into extinction as we eat the earth to win.

And how can we exit the game, especially those of us who are winning?

you can`t judge a economic system from a psychological point of view.what you mentioned aren`t capitalism flaws, but rather human errors.
capitalism has got nothing to do with people focusing on "worthless symbols of success",but rather provides the settings for human nature as it is.

 

[Stunt]

Moonbeam you are right in saying that capitalism is based on competition. But i disagree in the second assumption, competition is not based on hate. Competition is based on drive to succeed and accomplish.

It seems fairly intuitive to me...to increase your standard of living you must increase your gdp (more money for education and healthcare - either state run or privately run, same result). To increase your gdp you must increase productivity. To increase productivity you have to make the most efficient use of resources (both monetary and consumables). To create effieciency, you need motivation, goals, and ambition. This is accomplished by allowing people the economic freedom to do as they choose. Now it has been proven that capitalism is a very strong structure and is the only way of life that has stood the test of time. It is the strength in capitalism that we are able to redistribute funds and allow everyone to benifit from the system. The people who benifit the most currently pay the most and help those who have failed. The difference in ideologies when it comes to conservatism and liberalism is how much redistrobution. But do not fool yourself in thinking that socialism is what keeps everyone fed, it is the strength in capitalistic beliefs that allows us the infrastructure we have today.

 

[Moonbeam]

albatross: "you can`t judge a economic system from a psychological point of view."

M: I can and did. If you think I can't state why.

albatross: "what you mentioned aren't capitalism flaws, but rather human errors."

M: Not so at all. Our psychology is a product of the system we are raised under and we in turn create the system we live under out of our psychological motivations. Change either and the other will also change.

Albatross: "capitalism has got nothing to do with people focusing on "worthless symbols of success",but rather provides the settings for human nature as it is."

M: This is incorrect also. What you call human nature as it is is a disease. Real human nature, the one we evolved with for millions of years, was based on group co-operation. Humans evolved to the apex because of their social skills. The human disease began with the advent of language and the put down of others. Because language is abstracted we can believe in illusions, like social status and its trimmings, things that are totally worthless like the crown of a king.

If you want to argue please make some kind of case.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Stunt
Moonbeam you are right in saying that capitalism is based on competition. But i disagree in the second assumption, competition is not based on hate. Competition is based on drive to succeed and accomplish.

It seems fairly intuitive to me...to increase your standard of living you must increase your gdp (more money for education and healthcare - either state run or privately run, same result). To increase your gdp you must increase productivity. To increase productivity you have to make the most efficient use of resources (both monetary and consumables). To create effieciency, you need motivation, goals, and ambition. This is accomplished by allowing people the economic freedom to do as they choose. Now it has been proven that capitalism is a very strong structure and is the only way of life that has stood the test of time. It is the strength in capitalism that we are able to redistribute funds and allow everyone to benifit from the system. The people who benifit the most currently pay the most and help those who have failed. The difference in ideologies when it comes to conservatism and liberalism is how much redistrobution. But do not fool yourself in thinking that socialism is what keeps everyone fed, it is the strength in capitalistic beliefs that allows us the infrastructure we have today.

Clearly you haven't noticed that we are going to go extinct. And I don't expect you to know that competition is hate. Truth is the last thing that anybody wants to know because it requires ego death.

The cheese mite eats the cheese wheel praising his diligence till one day the cheese collapses and all the mites die. We all say a silent prayer that we die before the cheese.

Ignorance is bliss.

 

[Albatross]

"M: I can and did. If you think I can't state why"

no u can`t.the title of the thread is capitalism is evil and people used objective arguments (that is, about the mechanism of capitalism)rather than blaming capitalism for for what u call human disease.

"M: Not so at all. Our psychology is a product of the system we are raised under and we in turn create the system we live under out of our psychological motivations. Change either and the other will also change. "

i think our psychology created capitalism than the other way around.


"M: This is incorrect also. What you call human nature as it is is a disease. Real human nature, the one we evolved with for millions of years, was based on group co-operation. Humans evolved to the apex because of their social skills. The human disease began with the advent of language and the put down of others. Because language is abstracted we can believe in illusions, like social status and its trimmings, things that are totally worthless like the crown of a king. "

u got to be kidding.u make it sound like humans were angels and boom, capitalism came and humans were abruptly desfigured by greed,envy and war.also,capitalism is the culmination of human cooperation, although not in a direct, more visible way.
the evil intentions were there all along, language made it posssible for humans to
act more efficiently on those intentions.also cooperation was at first cooperation against others.

"If you want to argue please make some kind of case."
don`t be so self righteous,be more cooperative.

 

[Stunt]

We are not going to go extinct.
You are correct in your assumptions that the world has limited resources...but humans are highly adaptive, and people are motivated by survival. Similar to primitive societies, you follow food, you develop new trapping methods, you create technology, all to allow yourself to survive. I have absolutely no doubts that we are sustainable, and i'd be interested to hear why you feel we are not.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: albatross
"M: I can and did. If you think I can't state why"

a: "no u can`t.the title of the thread is capitalism is evil and people used objective arguments (that is, about the mechanism of capitalism)rather than blaming capitalism for for what u call human disease."

M: I said that capitalism is part of the cycle of human disease, a manifestation and perpetuator of human disease, but I said that the abstractive power of language that was the origin of the disease, not capitalism.

"M: Not so at all. Our psychology is a product of the system we are raised under and we in turn create the system we live under out of our psychological motivations. Change either and the other will also change. "

a: "i think our psychology created capitalism than the other way around."

M: Yes, our diseased psychology.


"M: This is incorrect also. What you call human nature as it is is a disease. Real human nature, the one we evolved with for millions of years, was based on group co-operation. Humans evolved to the apex because of their social skills. The human disease began with the advent of language and the put down of others. Because language is abstracted we can believe in illusions, like social status and its trimmings, things that are totally worthless like the crown of a king. "

a: "u got to be kidding.u make it sound like humans were angels and boom, capitalism came and humans were abruptly desfigured by greed,envy and war.also,capitalism is the culmination of human cooperation, although not in a direct, more visible way.
the evil intentions were there all along, language made it posssible for humans to
act more efficiently on those intentions.also cooperation was at first cooperation against others."

M: Not kidding at all. The story of the Garden of Eden contains this archatypal image and truth. Before language, human conscience was whole and undivided and everybody felt like God.

"M: "If you want to argue please make some kind of case.""

a: don`t be so self righteous,be more cooperative.

I have so far wasted a great deal of time on your education. Only you can change that by learning. I've done what can be done. It is you who turn that into nothing.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Stunt
We are not going to go extinct.
You are correct in your assumptions that the world has limited resources...but humans are highly adaptive, and people are motivated by survival. Similar to primitive societies, you follow food, you develop new trapping methods, you create technology, all to allow yourself to survive. I have absolutely no doubts that we are sustainable, and i'd be interested to hear why you feel we are not.

We are in the cheese phase and everything is coming up roses.

How can you be shown what you do not want to see?

I see what I see because I paid everything I had for vision. My seeing cost me everything I held dear, all my beliefs and dreams about everything in the world. For my vision I died in black hopelessness and meaninglessness. Having lost everything you can loose, I found something of what can't be taken. But I died to my rose colored lenses.

 

[smc13]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Capitalism is based on competition and competition is based on hate.

We live in a society filled with violence and fear where each seek a personal advantage over the other.

Out of fear and rage we put down the other to better our own competitive edge.

The result is that everybody has been so put down that everybody hates himself.

Out of hidden self hate we inflate our false ego, preening over every accidental success and focusing our creative drive on worthless symbols of success. We hate anybody above us and wipe our feet on those below. Thus we will compete ourselves into extinction as we eat the earth to win.

And how can we exit the game, especially those of us who are winning?

Wait?!? Isn't the above a rock song? Those are great lyrics. Meaningless, morbid, and morose. Send it to Green Day and see if they'll put it on their next album

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: smc13

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Capitalism is based on competition and competition is based on hate.

We live in a society filled with violence and fear where each seek a personal advantage over the other.

Out of fear and rage we put down the other to better our own competitive edge.

The result is that everybody has been so put down that everybody hates himself.

Out of hidden self hate we inflate our false ego, preening over every accidental success and focusing our creative drive on worthless symbols of success. We hate anybody above us and wipe our feet on those below. Thus we will compete ourselves into extinction as we eat the earth to win.

And how can we exit the game, especially those of us who are winning?

Wait?!? Isn't the above a rock song? Those are great lyrics. Meaningless, morbid, and morose. Send it to Green Day and see if they'll put it on their next album

The sale of millions of plastic CDs would hasten our demise.

 

[Albatross]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: albatross
"M: I can and did. If you think I can't state why"

a: "no u can`t.the title of the thread is capitalism is evil and people used objective arguments (that is, about the mechanism of capitalism)rather than blaming capitalism for for what u call human disease."

M: I said that capitalism is part of the cycle of human disease, a manifestation and perpetuator of human disease, but I said that the abstractive power of language that was the origin of the disease, not capitalism.

"M: Not so at all. Our psychology is a product of the system we are raised under and we in turn create the system we live under out of our psychological motivations. Change either and the other will also change. "

a: "i think our psychology created capitalism than the other way around."

M: Yes, our diseased psychology.


"M: This is incorrect also. What you call human nature as it is is a disease. Real human nature, the one we evolved with for millions of years, was based on group co-operation. Humans evolved to the apex because of their social skills. The human disease began with the advent of language and the put down of others. Because language is abstracted we can believe in illusions, like social status and its trimmings, things that are totally worthless like the crown of a king. "

a: "u got to be kidding.u make it sound like humans were angels and boom, capitalism came and humans were abruptly desfigured by greed,envy and war.also,capitalism is the culmination of human cooperation, although not in a direct, more visible way.
the evil intentions were there all along, language made it posssible for humans to
act more efficiently on those intentions.also cooperation was at first cooperation against others."

M: Not kidding at all. The story of the Garden of Eden contains this archatypal image and truth. Before language, human conscience was whole and undivided and everybody felt like God.

"M: "If you want to argue please make some kind of case.""

a: don`t be so self righteous,be more cooperative.

I have so far wasted a great deal of time on your education. Only you can change that by learning. I've done what can be done. It is you who turn that into nothing.

well we shoud blame god for our fallen state.but capitalism in itself is just fine.it seems to me that u r preaching something unrealistic for most people.i can understand what u r saying,but that has got very little to do with capitalism.i think we are talking on different levels.also,i think u r arrogant.

 

[Orsorum]

How is competition based on hate?