Last time I went straight to the ER, I had a broken nose and concussion. They told me to go to my doctor and get a referral before they would serve me. And I live in Ontario.
Last time I went straight to the ER, I had a broken nose and concussion. They told me to go to my doctor and get a referral before they would serve me. And I live in Ontario.
Throckmorton
Lifer
- Aug 23, 2007
- 16,829
- 3
- 0
And if you lived in the USA and had no health insurance, you'd have had to pay thousands of dollars also.
dennilfloss
Past Lifer 1957-2014 In Memoriam
GPS = Global Positioning System. You still must buy the device to use it, and each device comes from a company, and those companies all use their own maps and voices. I'm sure they charge you for updates or a subscription to their service.
Once again, GPS is NOT a social service that EVERYONE pays into and only SOME people can take from. Every single one of those services provided by the government has cost more than they estimated, delivered less than they estimated, and are going bankrupt. GPS, NASA and whoever/whatever else you can think of that aren't social services also have the same basic problem - they under budget everything, have no way of getting revenue except taxes. Sure, its "free"... I just pay for it out of every paycheck... but its still free, right?
In the US you have a choice. No one is stopping anyone from getting a job with benefits. Things just shouldn't be handed to you, you need to work for it. Why is it everyone these days has a sense of entitlement? The government owes you nothing. What happened to personal responsibility?
In any case, you merely subscribe to a different ideology. You are, perhaps, one of the ones who worked his way up from nothing? Or have you middle class origins?
Throckmorton
Lifer
- Aug 23, 2007
- 16,829
- 3
- 0
It is necessarily impossible for everyone to get a job with health benefits. Our society must have people doing menial jobs and we absolutely owe them basic human rights (healthcare IS a human right). It's just not possible for everyone to get to the social class required to have health insurance. There is a reason the term "working poor" exists. You must believe that the economy is fueled by magic. It should be obvious if someone works himself up to the middle or upper class, it means someone else isn't, by necessity.
Our whole way of life DEPENDS on government facilitation. This is why we accept spending billions on the military, education, consumer protection, environmental protection, economic regulation, space expoloration, technology --- I could list things that benefit everyone forever. Why do you draw the line at healthcare?
Scouzer
Lifer
- Jun 3, 2001
- 10,358
- 5
- 0
I absolutely agree with you Throck.
Capitalism is definitely a great economic model...but socially responsible capitalism is better.
Illustrated by my Canadian taxes only being 24% on 49k, this social net is quite inexpensive. I pay less income tax than Americans in some states, and only marginally more than other states.
I am a fellow Canadian and very much agree with what you have said. I have had nothing but great experiences with our healthcare system. It must be stressed that acute (emergency/urgent) care in Canada is excellent. It is, quite frankly, ridiculous that some people believe that patients are dying left-right-and centre in our healthcare system. If someone is injured in a car crash, for instance, they have immediate access to medical attention. Almost all of problems that you read about are long-term care related, are relatively few and far between, but unfortunately, sensationalized. Honestly, while I support the move to a public/private system if the system had been properly administered there wouldn't be a need for private care in many situations.
Most of the problems in our system are related to poor decisions made by idiotic politicians and administrators. Long queues for surgery and medical imaging are patently absurd. My dad is a radiologist/nuc. med. and I have discussed his frustrations with the system with him. He has told me that the main problems with health care are due to administration and partisan politics. For instance, VIHA (Vancouver Island Health Authority) has an annual budget of around ~1.5 billion dollars. About twenty-five percent of that budget is spent on things that do not contribute directly to patient care such as administration. Also, hospitals support many union jobs that don't contribute at all to patient care. Also, I support the move to a public/private hybrid system for choice but more primarily a matter of cost. For minor procedures such as day surgery, patients could go to publicly-funded private clinics. This would free up hospitals for important and complex procedures with the benefit of being able to hire non-unionized employees in the private clinics. Many doctors in Canada are pushing for this. All-in-all, however, these are relatively minor problems when looking at the high-quality care that we still get in Canada.
Regarding the health insurance premiums here, it is fairly minor and is based on income. I am lucky to be in a well-off family and I think that we pay ~$1,200 a year for my parents, me, and two sisters. That is the top bracket for premiums. My sister is type 1 diabetic and while her supplies are not covered for us, they would be if we weren't so well-off (we have extended blue-cross coverage but that is irrelevant). This is pretty much how it works -- you pay a reasonable premium if you can afford it but it is provided by the government if you can't. Although it has its faults and can definitely be improved, I think that our system is better in terms of patient care because if you are sick and need medical attention, you will get it.
And that sentence right there is all you need to say to discourage folks from pushing for a UHC.
I had minor surgery to get a calcified cyst removed and I had to wait a month to have it done, which is completely reasonable since its not life threatening.
Throckmorton
Lifer
- Aug 23, 2007
- 16,829
- 3
- 0
Because UHC will not work. Not everyone can have a job with the best benefits, you're right. But one of the great things about this country is the ability to make a difference for yourself. We aren't bound by classes, the only boundaries are ones we set for ourselves.
I am not going to argue extremes here, because that will go no where. The fact is, if you apply yourself and work hard you will succeed.
No where did I say that we do not depend on our government to an extent for things, what I said is people have a false sense of entitlement, they feel the government owes them something. They think that we should have UHC, among other things - some people paying more, some people paying less, some not at all, while everyone receives the same service. That is not right at all.
There are plenty of programs out there to get medical care without insurance, when I was younger for a time (15 or so) when I didn't have insurance, I was still able to be seen by a doctor for tonsillitis as well as receive the vaccinations I needed, but never got when I was younger. This was without applying for anything from the welfare system.
Which brings me to the welfare system which is heavily abused. My sister and brother in law abused the system. They would blow $20/night on a bag of weed while going the next day to get milk with their WIC check. That pissed me off to no end. This happens all the time all over the place. Why would it be any different with UHC, the system will be abused by the freeloaders we already have. Women walking around with 5 kids from different dads going in to get their welfare check - What happened to responsibility? I sure as hell don't want to be paying my hard earned money out to that sluts health care, which is exactly what will happen.
There are plenty of people out there who are truly in need of assistance, and that is why the welfare system needs a lot of fixing. Throwing more money at the problem is not the solution.
SacrosanctFiend
Diamond Member
- Oct 2, 2004
- 4,269
- 0
- 0
Cool. So, point it out, and let's move on. Because if you don't, I can just say you're full of bullshit and then we are going around in circles for the rest of our natural life (or however long you wish to continue it).
- Nov 13, 2001
- 15,368
- 418
- 126
And what of those who have such a job but those who dont get paid the higher up are offered said insurance at or above half their wages. Whats to be done for them? And that would be the same for no matter what job they were to take because of the pay they would receive. And no schooling is out of the question due to what has to get done at home due to no help there as well.
Not saying I should be handed insurance, but if we are to pay for it through her work we should be cut some god damn slack and not have to pay the same rates as those who get paid 30K+ a year as my wife gets paid $7 a hour. How are we to afford the insurance, and keep food, clothes, and the lights on for the family, and pay over $450 for family insurance on $1000 a month take home. Thats where the system is super fucked up IMO. Its like a slap in the face. Yeah you want insurance, no problem, here you go, oh what, if you get it you cant feed your children, heat the home, keep the lights on? Well I guess dont eat or take a bath, walk to work, or pray no one gets hurt. Thats wrong. Id gladly get off welfare, were mainly on it for the insurance, we could squeak by having to make up the lousy $250 in food stamps we get, its the insurance part that would kill us, and literally would kill me.
And I can only bet there is a ton of families in my same position all over the us in the same boat who can afford food, but not the insurance and why they turn to go on welfare. But to go, anyone can go get what ever job and get insurance and afford to have it is wrong. And then your subject to possible insurance tests as well to determine if the low part of the cost you have to pay out of pocket is the lowest you have to pay, and IF they will even insure you to begin with if you have outstanding health problems, all depending on who the insurance carrier is work has.
So just to sit back and say what you said is all wrong.
1) The health care plan in Canada is not free. We pay a premium every month of $96. for Shirley and I to be covered. Sounds great eh. What they don't tell you is how much we pay in taxes to keep the health care system afloat. I am personally in the 55% tax bracket. Yes 55% of my earnings go to taxes. A large portion of that and I am not sure of the exact amount goes directly to health care our #1 expense.
Actually Education eats up a huge chunk, every province pays their health care differently and is taxed differently
2) I would not classify what we have as health care plan, it is more like a health diagnosis system. You can get into to see a doctor quick enough so he can tell you "yes indeed you are sick or you need an operation" but now the challenge becomes getting treated or operated on. We have waiting lists out the ying yang some as much as 2 years down the road.
Non- life threatening or critical can take a long time, known problem
3) Rather than fix what is wrong with you the usual tactic in Canada is to prescribe drugs. Have a pain here is a drug to take- not what is causing the pain and why. No time for checking you out because it is more important to move as many patients thru as possible each hour for Government re-imbursement
Obviously doesn't work in the medical profession
4) Many Canadians do not have a family Doctor.
Some by choice some by circumstances, vaires again between provinces
5) Don't require emergency treatment as you may wait for hours in the emergency room waiting for treatment.
A lot of what sits in emergency rooms are not emergencies, I drove my roomate there once for a migrain. Maybe this is where a drop-in fee might eliminate some BS
6) Shirley's dad cut his hand on a power saw a few weeks back and it required that his hand be put in a splint - to our surprise we had to pay $125. for a splint because it is not covered under health care plus we have to pay $60. for each visit for him to check it out each week.
Wow, no mystery here about 22% of health care ISN'T covered just woke up to that one eh?
7) Shirley's cousin was diagnosed with a heart blockage. Put on a waiting list . Died before he could get treatment.
Impossible to comment on without all the details estimated 10K deaths a year due to F-ups, Sad but true OMG mistakes can be made!
8) Government allots so many operations per year. When that is done no more operations, unless you go to your local newspaper and plead your case and embarrass the government then money suddenly appears.
Varies between provinces, and squeaky wheels get grease
9)The Government takes great pride in telling us how much more they are increasing the funding for health care but waiting lists never get shorter. Government just keeps throwing money at the problem but it never goes away. But they are good at finding new ways to tax us, but they don't call it a tax anymore it is now a user fee.
People are getting older and sicker and drugs are more expensive, you used to die from cancer or heart disease remember? now many live where people used to die off.
10) A friend needs an operation for a blockage in her leg but because she is a smoker they will not do it. Despite paying into the health care system all these years. My friend is 65 years old. Now there is talk that maybe we should not treat fat and obese people either because they are a drain on the health care system. Let me see now, what we want in Canada is a health care system for healthy people only. That should reduce our health care costs.
Its called Triage, you put your best effort in people who are going to make it or care enough about their own lives to make a change, but no they won't ignore you sometimes you just have to junk that old Ford Timmy
11) Forget getting a second opinion, what you see is what you get.
Sometimes, and another area where you need to work with your GP to get to the root of the issue, remember you own your health and don't just swallow what is fed you, doctors don't know everything
12) I can spend what money I have left after taxes on booze, cigarettes, junk food and anything else that could kill me but I am not allowed by law to spend my money on getting an operation I need because that would be jumping the queue. I must wait my turn except if I am a hockey player or athlete then I can get looked at right away. Go figger. Where else in the world can you spend money to kill yourself but not allowed to spend money to get healthy.
Well you can spend money on certain things like hips or diagnostics, and its changing and it should
13) Oh did I mention that immigrants are covered automatically at tax payer expense having never contributed a dollar to the system and pay no premiums.
You have never contributed to the system when you were born yet we had you anyway?
and if your mom and dad were like 15 they didn't either. Birthing rooms aren't free, useless immigrant bash
14) Oh yeh we now give free needles to drug users to try and keep them healthy. Wouldn't want a sickly druggie breaking into your house and stealing your things. But people with diabetes who pay into the health care system have to pay for their needles because it is not covered but the health care system.
Because its cost beneficial to pay for needles than try to pay for aids, again simply doesn't understand the system
I send this out not looking for sympathy but as the election looms in the states you will be hearing more and more about universal health care down there and the advocates will be pointing to Canada. I just want to make sure that you hear the truth about health care up here and have some food for thought and informed questions to ask when broached with this subject.
Step wisely and don't make the same mistakes we have.
True, both the US and Canada should have better systems and proven world over is the hybrid system, Most of the food for tought in that rant was junk food tho.
Actually Education eats up a huge chunk, every province pays their health care differently and is taxed differently
2) I would not classify what we have as health care plan, it is more like a health diagnosis system. You can get into to see a doctor quick enough so he can tell you "yes indeed you are sick or you need an operation" but now the challenge becomes getting treated or operated on. We have waiting lists out the ying yang some as much as 2 years down the road.
Non- life threatening or critical can take a long time, known problem
3) Rather than fix what is wrong with you the usual tactic in Canada is to prescribe drugs. Have a pain here is a drug to take- not what is causing the pain and why. No time for checking you out because it is more important to move as many patients thru as possible each hour for Government re-imbursement
Obviously doesn't work in the medical profession
4) Many Canadians do not have a family Doctor.
Some by choice some by circumstances, vaires again between provinces
5) Don't require emergency treatment as you may wait for hours in the emergency room waiting for treatment.
A lot of what sits in emergency rooms are not emergencies, I drove my roomate there once for a migrain. Maybe this is where a drop-in fee might eliminate some BS
6) Shirley's dad cut his hand on a power saw a few weeks back and it required that his hand be put in a splint - to our surprise we had to pay $125. for a splint because it is not covered under health care plus we have to pay $60. for each visit for him to check it out each week.
Wow, no mystery here about 22% of health care ISN'T covered just woke up to that one eh?
7) Shirley's cousin was diagnosed with a heart blockage. Put on a waiting list . Died before he could get treatment.
Impossible to comment on without all the details estimated 10K deaths a year due to F-ups, Sad but true OMG mistakes can be made!
8) Government allots so many operations per year. When that is done no more operations, unless you go to your local newspaper and plead your case and embarrass the government then money suddenly appears.
Varies between provinces, and squeaky wheels get grease
9)The Government takes great pride in telling us how much more they are increasing the funding for health care but waiting lists never get shorter. Government just keeps throwing money at the problem but it never goes away. But they are good at finding new ways to tax us, but they don't call it a tax anymore it is now a user fee.
People are getting older and sicker and drugs are more expensive, you used to die from cancer or heart disease remember? now many live where people used to die off.
10) A friend needs an operation for a blockage in her leg but because she is a smoker they will not do it. Despite paying into the health care system all these years. My friend is 65 years old. Now there is talk that maybe we should not treat fat and obese people either because they are a drain on the health care system. Let me see now, what we want in Canada is a health care system for healthy people only. That should reduce our health care costs.
Its called Triage, you put your best effort in people who are going to make it or care enough about their own lives to make a change, but no they won't ignore you sometimes you just have to junk that old Ford Timmy
11) Forget getting a second opinion, what you see is what you get.
Sometimes, and another area where you need to work with your GP to get to the root of the issue, remember you own your health and don't just swallow what is fed you, doctors don't know everything
12) I can spend what money I have left after taxes on booze, cigarettes, junk food and anything else that could kill me but I am not allowed by law to spend my money on getting an operation I need because that would be jumping the queue. I must wait my turn except if I am a hockey player or athlete then I can get looked at right away. Go figger. Where else in the world can you spend money to kill yourself but not allowed to spend money to get healthy.
Well you can spend money on certain things like hips or diagnostics, and its changing and it should
13) Oh did I mention that immigrants are covered automatically at tax payer expense having never contributed a dollar to the system and pay no premiums.
You have never contributed to the system when you were born yet we had you anyway?
and if your mom and dad were like 15 they didn't either. Birthing rooms aren't free, useless immigrant bash
14) Oh yeh we now give free needles to drug users to try and keep them healthy. Wouldn't want a sickly druggie breaking into your house and stealing your things. But people with diabetes who pay into the health care system have to pay for their needles because it is not covered but the health care system.
Because its cost beneficial to pay for needles than try to pay for aids, again simply doesn't understand the system
I send this out not looking for sympathy but as the election looms in the states you will be hearing more and more about universal health care down there and the advocates will be pointing to Canada. I just want to make sure that you hear the truth about health care up here and have some food for thought and informed questions to ask when broached with this subject.
Step wisely and don't make the same mistakes we have.
True, both the US and Canada should have better systems and proven world over is the hybrid system, Most of the food for tought in that rant was junk food tho.
I am not going to sit back and say whatever I said was wrong, because I do not believe it is. You did not read my post below the one you quoted, did you? I think that would explain my standing a lot better.
Why do you believe that a government health care program will be much better?
I am not telling you what to do, but if you guys are so bad off, why does your wife not try to find another job? No one can live really off $7/hr, especially with kids... I honestly don't see how you make it, especially with the cost of living in my location.
- Nov 13, 2001
- 15,368
- 418
- 126
I make it because I took my injury settlement and bought a home for $49.5k, paid it off, and live in a area that has a very low cost of living. With everything paid off, and getting health insurance from welfare we make it on a $7 an hour job, and there are no real better paying jobs then that in the area. She works in town and her job is only 5 minutes away from home. If she were to go find any other job it it would be further from home, pay the same, and then we would be in the hole because she would have to pay out the ass for gas she would burn going further away, for the same paying job, that we wouldnt be able to afford the benefits they offer, or the gas at that point so she can keep going back to work.
I dont favor any plan, government run, or what we have now, because everything they want to set in place, and what is set in place is badly flawed.
I dont favor any plan, government run, or what we have now, because everything they want to set in place, and what is set in place is badly flawed.
TRENDING THREADS
-
Discussion Zen 5 Speculation (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 9000)- Started by DisEnchantment
- Replies: 25K
-
Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes + WCL Discussion Threads
- Started by Tigerick
- Replies: 24K
-
Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread- Started by TheF34RChannel
- Replies: 23K
-
-
Facebook
Twitter