canadian PM being read the riot act on c-span

PatboyX

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2001
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so...from what i can gather, there is a bit of trouble about the PM perhaps soliciting something...but no one will really get beyond "we have the tapes"
and
"i have not heard the tapes!"

how do the canadians feel about all this?
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
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Basically we have a minority government where the Conservative Party and the Bloc Quebecois were going to take down the governement by voting down the federal budget. They planned to vote down the budget as the Liberals (party in power for 10 years) is under criminal investigation for giving government grants to ad firms in quebec. The NDP made a 3.6billion dollar budget deal with the Liberals to get them on side.

In the lead up to the budget vote, the Prime Minister went on a ~40billion dollar spending spree trying to sway MP's and other political forces. In this time period, they made offers to some conservative MP's, one being Belinda Stronach (billionaire and huge autoparts maker) where she was given a post in the federal cabinet and lots of power within the govrenment. Now Gurmant Grewal another Conservative MP has over 4 hours of tapes created as the PM and other cabinet ministers tried to buy his vote with potential senate seats for him and his wife.

It's pretty nuts. I don't like it at all, I want the Liberals out now.
PS. The Budget passed because of Stronach, and since then there is another Liberal MP from a by-election in Liberal heartland so bringing down the government is almost impossible now.
 

Looney

Lifer
Jun 13, 2000
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Why was he read the riot acts?

Anyways, there has been so much drama up here... first we thought there was going to be a forced election. And then Belinda Stronach, who came in second for the Tory leadership (conservative party), defected and went to the Liberals (and broke up with her boyfriend and deputy leader MacKay in the process!)... i don't know what's going on, but the Tory's are just bad losers. Instead of strategizing for the next election, they're just trying hijack this one... and teaming up with the Bloc (Quebec's party... which have always been polar opposites of the Tories) to try to do it!

Personally, there's too much to lose if an election is held now... if the Liberal loses, and the Tories win (which i doubt... polls are still decidedly Liberals, so i have no idea why they keep trying), there's a real chance Quebec might finally seperate.
 

Looney

Lifer
Jun 13, 2000
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BTW, if Stronach lead the Tories, i would have voted. Harper isn't as far right as the clown that didn't believe in evolution, but he's still too far extreme.
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
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Originally posted by: Looney
Why was he read the riot acts?

Anyways, there has been so much drama up here... first we thought there was going to be a forced election. And then Belinda Stronach, who came in second for the Tory leadership (conservative party), defected and went to the Liberals (and broke up with her boyfriend and deputy leader MacKay in the process!)... i don't know what's going on, but the Tory's are just bad losers. Instead of strategizing for the next election, they're just trying hijack this one... and teaming up with the Bloc (Quebec's party... which have always been polar opposites of the Tories) to try to do it!

Personally, there's too much to lose if an election is held now... if the Liberal loses, and the Tories win (which i doubt... polls are still decidedly Liberals, so i have no idea why they keep trying), there's a real chance Quebec might finally seperate.

Harper may be socially and fiscally conservative, but his party is not socially conservative and the Tories are so similar to the Liberals it's not even funny. The only reason they are afraid to bring them to power is because they are afraid to see the Conservatives govern and govern well.

The people of Canada are sick of Paul Martin and the Liberals, we need a campaign to clear the misperceptions of the Tories. Fear mongering by the Liberals is just disgusting, reminds me of the Swiftboat smearing last election in the States.

All 3 major parties voted against the Liberal budget originally and the only reason the NDP is proping them up is because of the crazy spending spree. The Tories and Bloc share the same concerns as the rest of the country, you cannot complain about a similar opinion...especially when you yourself say they are on opposite sides of the political spectrum.
 

PatboyX

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2001
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thank you!
i wish there was more canadian discussion on ATP&N.
its always interesting to me.
(also: less fighting)
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
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I wish there was too...it would get heated, trust me.
Of course it isn't as polar with the 3 major parties.
 

Looney

Lifer
Jun 13, 2000
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Harper may be socially and fiscally conservative, but his party is not socially conservative and the Tories are so similar to the Liberals it's not even funny.

I know, which is why if there was a more moderate leader, i would have voted... and i'm sure a lot of other Canadians.

The only reason they are afraid to bring them to power is because they are afraid to see the Conservatives govern and govern well.

Oh come on, that's just sophomoric reasoning. We're afraid to have the Conservatives govern, because we're afraid they're going to govern well? Please.


The people of Canada are sick of Paul Martin and the Liberals, we need a campaign to clear the misperceptions of the Tories. Fear mongering by the Liberals is just disgusting, reminds me of the Swiftboat smearing last election in the States.

Not according to all the polls i've seen. Most don't want a re-election.
 

Stunt

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Jul 17, 2002
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"I know, which is why if there was a more moderate leader, i would have voted... and i'm sure a lot of other Canadians."

Harper is a moderate, he just has differing views on abortion, the rest of his views are in line with most Canadians. Like Chretien (staunch catholic), Harper leaves his personal social views at the door when considering policies. This is precisely why the Conservative party supports choice and creating policies like: policy on clean government and new government grant procedures, adoption of the kyoto protocol, advocating choice on the topic of abortion, more spending on healthcare and a revamp of the equalization payment program.

"Oh come on, that's just sophomoric reasoning. We're afraid to have the Conservatives govern, because we're afraid they're going to govern well? Please."

The NDP voters was scared into voting Liberal last time as the Liberals created a bunch of false accusations giving harper a bad name. Similar to the smear campain in the US against Kerry, you are always going to have negative comments about a leader; one must cut through the crap and propoganda.

"Not according to all the polls i've seen. Most don't want a re-election."

Most Canadians are not happy with the Liberal government, they just don't see another option as the Liberals have scared people out of their nationality/patriotism. Look at some of these opinions (Globe and Mail):

"61 per cent of Canadians surveyed believe the prime minister is the federal political leader most likely to tell a lie if it would help him politically. Only 26 per cent believe that of Conservative Leader Stephen Harper."
"When asked which party leader is the most hypocritical, 54 per cent chose Mr. Martin, compared to 29 per cent for Mr. Harper."
"In a similar vein, 63 per cent thought Mr. Martin the most dishonest, compared with 20 per cent for Mr. Harper."
"15 to 25 per cent of those surveyed would vote Liberal, yet are still prepared to ascribe "really, really awful attributes to Paul Martin""
"In Ontario, Tories lead with 35 per cent with the Liberals behind by one percentage point."
 

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
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Originally posted by: Stunt


Harper may be socially and fiscally conservative, but his party is not socially conservative and the Tories are so similar to the Liberals it's not even funny. The only reason they are afraid to bring them to power is because they are afraid to see the Conservatives govern and govern well.

The people of Canada are sick of Paul Martin and the Liberals, we need a campaign to clear the misperceptions of the Tories. Fear mongering by the Liberals is just disgusting, reminds me of the Swiftboat smearing last election in the States.

All 3 major parties voted against the Liberal budget originally and the only reason the NDP is proping them up is because of the crazy spending spree. The Tories and Bloc share the same concerns as the rest of the country, you cannot complain about a similar opinion...especially when you yourself say they are on opposite sides of the political spectrum.

Nope, not afraid of that at all. I'm just not convinced about the ' his party is not socially conservative ' part.

Stronach would have been a much better choice for the leader of a national party, trying to grow beyond it's western regionalist roots.

Actually, anyone who wasn't highly placed in the Reform/Alliance would have been a better choice to lead a national party.
 

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
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Originally posted by: Stunt
"I know, which is why if there was a more moderate leader, i would have voted... and i'm sure a lot of other Canadians."

Harper is a moderate, he just has differing views on abortion, the rest of his views are in line with most Canadians. Like Chretien (staunch catholic), Harper leaves his personal social views at the door when considering policies. This is precisely why the Conservative party supports choice and creating policies like: policy on clean government and new government grant procedures, adoption of the kyoto protocol, advocating choice on the topic of abortion, more spending on healthcare and a revamp of the equalization payment program.

"Oh come on, that's just sophomoric reasoning. We're afraid to have the Conservatives govern, because we're afraid they're going to govern well? Please."

The NDP voters was scared into voting Liberal last time as the Liberals created a bunch of false accusations giving harper a bad name. Similar to the smear campain in the US against Kerry, you are always going to have negative comments about a leader; one must cut through the crap and propoganda.

"Not according to all the polls i've seen. Most don't want a re-election."

Most Canadians are not happy with the Liberal government, they just don't see another option as the Liberals have scared people out of their nationality/patriotism. Look at some of these opinions (Globe and Mail):

"61 per cent of Canadians surveyed believe the prime minister is the federal political leader most likely to tell a lie if it would help him politically. Only 26 per cent believe that of Conservative Leader Stephen Harper."
"When asked which party leader is the most hypocritical, 54 per cent chose Mr. Martin, compared to 29 per cent for Mr. Harper."
"In a similar vein, 63 per cent thought Mr. Martin the most dishonest, compared with 20 per cent for Mr. Harper."
"15 to 25 per cent of those surveyed would vote Liberal, yet are still prepared to ascribe "really, really awful attributes to Paul Martin""
"In Ontario, Tories lead with 35 per cent with the Liberals behind by one percentage point."

Interestingly, most polls still show Martin as the 'makes best prime minister' winner, over Harper, even when party support was roughly equal, or slightly in favour of the Conservatives. Kinda makes you wonder what Canadians think makes a good PM.
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
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Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
Originally posted by: Stunt


Harper may be socially and fiscally conservative, but his party is not socially conservative and the Tories are so similar to the Liberals it's not even funny. The only reason they are afraid to bring them to power is because they are afraid to see the Conservatives govern and govern well.

The people of Canada are sick of Paul Martin and the Liberals, we need a campaign to clear the misperceptions of the Tories. Fear mongering by the Liberals is just disgusting, reminds me of the Swiftboat smearing last election in the States.

All 3 major parties voted against the Liberal budget originally and the only reason the NDP is proping them up is because of the crazy spending spree. The Tories and Bloc share the same concerns as the rest of the country, you cannot complain about a similar opinion...especially when you yourself say they are on opposite sides of the political spectrum.

Nope, not afraid of that at all. I'm just not convinced about the ' his party is not socially conservative ' part.

Stronach would have been a much better choice for the leader of a national party, trying to grow beyond it's western regionalist roots.

Actually, anyone who wasn't highly placed in the Reform/Alliance would have been a better choice to lead a national party.
Nope.
Anyone who cannot speak French and was polling the worst of the three leaders in Quebec during the leadership election is not fit to lead a national party.

Of course people will give Paul Martin the nod for PM as he is already. Look at Bush, lowest approval numbers ever, yet wins elections and is more presidential.

People think Martin and the Liberal party are crooks, and they are.
 

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
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Originally posted by: Stunt
Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
Originally posted by: Stunt


Harper may be socially and fiscally conservative, but his party is not socially conservative and the Tories are so similar to the Liberals it's not even funny. The only reason they are afraid to bring them to power is because they are afraid to see the Conservatives govern and govern well.

The people of Canada are sick of Paul Martin and the Liberals, we need a campaign to clear the misperceptions of the Tories. Fear mongering by the Liberals is just disgusting, reminds me of the Swiftboat smearing last election in the States.

All 3 major parties voted against the Liberal budget originally and the only reason the NDP is proping them up is because of the crazy spending spree. The Tories and Bloc share the same concerns as the rest of the country, you cannot complain about a similar opinion...especially when you yourself say they are on opposite sides of the political spectrum.

Nope, not afraid of that at all. I'm just not convinced about the ' his party is not socially conservative ' part.

Stronach would have been a much better choice for the leader of a national party, trying to grow beyond it's western regionalist roots.

Actually, anyone who wasn't highly placed in the Reform/Alliance would have been a better choice to lead a national party.
Nope.
Anyone who cannot speak French and was polling the worst of the three leaders in Quebec during the leadership election is not fit to lead a national party.

Of course people will give Paul Martin the nod for PM as he is already. Look at Bush, lowest approval numbers ever, yet wins elections and is more presidential.

People think Martin and the Liberal party are crooks, and they are.
I'm interested in these tapes - I don't necessarlity doubt their validity, but I suspect that the recordings are illegal, which could be a bit of a downer for the MP who actually made the recordings.

Belinda was targetted because she was unhappy with her party - perhaps the other target was chosen for his weak ethics. I mean the Liberals need to replace Chretien, right?

Edit - sorry, but Harper was still a bad choice for leader. The liberals absolutely imploded under Martin, and Harper was still not enough of a moderate to win the election.
 

Stunt

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Jul 17, 2002
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I think Grewal was in the wrong for the tapes...I still think that the Liberals actions the past month have been disgusting at best.

Harper is an excellent leader, the only downside i see is perhaps his passion. But again, i'd rather see good policy, good ideas, good team, and content over a little bit of passion (Martin doesn't accel at this). Harper has been smeared by the Liberals and the NDP to the point people think he isn't a moderate.

Please explain how he is not moderate, and define moderate.
 

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
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Originally posted by: Stunt
I think Grewal was in the wrong for the tapes...I still think that the Liberals actions the past month have been disgusting at best.

Harper is an excellent leader, the only downside i see is perhaps his passion. But again, i'd rather see good policy, good ideas, good team, and content over a little bit of passion (Martin doesn't accel at this). Harper has been smeared by the Liberals and the NDP to the point people think he isn't a moderate.

Please explain how he is not moderate, and define moderate.

He comes from a party that was essentially western regionalist, and whatever policies he supports now, the one he started out with was pretty sketchy on abortion , immigration, health care, and basically everything else under the sun.

I'm not saying he'll never be PM, and I'm not saying he will be awful if he is, what I'm saying is he doesn't have a proven track record (like Chretien built) of showing that his personal/religious views wouldn't influence his work as PM - his background is in a party that didn't really make such a distinction.

Either way, it's hard to belive he was the best choice to get the CP elected, as the last election should have been a cakewalk for them.
 

Stunt

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Jul 17, 2002
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abortion is a non-issue as many people voice this concern and has absolutely no representation in the House of Commons. The Conservative Party of Canada is pro-choice and i see Harper's opinion no worse than Liberals who are pro-life. Everyone can agree this will never become legislation, would kill the party forever and should not be a concern for any intelligent voter.

with regards to immigration, the conservative party have always been staunch supporters of accreditation for skilled workers from overseas. Harper helped create these very interesting policies and i believe he commands the most diverse party in the house of commons. Any immigration concerns will be heard, that's for sure.

Health-Care he's had a not so hot record on as he has been an advocate of increasing funding to the provinces who are the ones responsible for distributing care. Healthcare is not a federal jurisdiction and this is what Harper has said all along. Recently he has stepped back on this and has admitted that the federal government does have some say in the matter. I trust his original analysis though, the provinces know way more about healthcare than the feds. I don't think you can deny this.

You can form your own opinions about the man, but i like his track record, he will never get a huge amount of experience without giving him the nod, and most of the fears are unjusified smear.

He was the best choice for the CP, and still is for now. One more failed election and he's done, he has said this. People need to start using logic instead of propoganda.
 

Mokmo418

Senior member
Jul 13, 2004
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I am happy with Paul Martin's spending spree in the past few weeks...
gets me a highway a little closer to home
but he won't get my vote wether now or in november/december
check the electoral maps, in Quebec east of Montreal, the liberal county nearest to Quebec City is mine. Last summer the candidates were a law student(NDP, loud mouth), an accounting student(Bloc, way too young), a musician businessman(Tories, unknown to most) and the liberal MP who kept his seat because we're considered one of the few Quebec counties that still votes for the candidates more than the leader
Now the current MP is unsure to represent himself on the next election. He has competition. The son of the former Tory MP that stayed there for 16 years before being named embassador to Haiti (before all the trouble began).
Whatever the case, i wouldn't be surprised to see a few counties turn tory blue in Quebec this year.

 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
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Originally posted by: Mokmo418
Whatever the case, i wouldn't be surprised to see a few counties turn tory blue in Quebec this year.
I have heard this as well. The Gazette had a big article on this. Tory support is concentrated in Quebec, unlike NDP, and will probably get seats in Quebec next election under Harper.
 

aidanjm

Lifer
Aug 9, 2004
12,411
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Originally posted by: Stunt
The people of Canada are sick of Paul Martin and the Liberals, we need a campaign to clear the misperceptions of the Tories. Fear mongering by the Liberals is just disgusting, reminds me of the Swiftboat smearing last election in the States.

The Tories look to be a frightening group of people (if you are not white, male, christian and heterosexual that is - of course you will be OK, Stunt)


Anti-Gay US Groups Try To Seize Control Of Canadian Political Party
by Ben Thompson 365Gay.com Ottawa Bureau

May 31, 2005 12:01 am ET

(Ottawa) Conservative Christian groups have grabbed control of nearly a dozen Conservative Party ridings across Canada and vow they will ensure the party adheres to a strict right wing agenda including an end to same-sex marriage.

Candidates with close ties the Canadian branches of groups including Focus on the Family and other American evangelical groups have won party nominations in three provinces: Four in British Columbia, three in Nova Scotia, and one in Ontario. The groups also have succeeded in having their members win votes to become riding association presidents elsewhere in the country.

And they say that it is only the beginning.

The Globe and Mail reports that the groups are preparing to put up candidates for Conservative Party nominations in other regions as the country prepares for an election late this year or early in 2006.

Even though the Conservative Party is the only federal party to oppose same-sex marriage, the right wing groups say they want to be assured that if a bill currently before Parliament to legalize gay marriage is passed it would be repealed by the next government.

Conservatives on Monday managed to stall the government's bill to legalize same-sex marriage in those parts of Canada where it is still prohibited.

The Liberal government of Prime Minister Paul Martin had hoped to have the bill passed by summer recess. But, Conservatives on a committee studying the legislation have announced they will call more than two dozen witnesses to voice concerns about the legislation.

It now is likely the marriage bill will not be enacted before fall, and Conservatives say they hope to delay it even further in a bid to let the measure die in an election call.

Evangelical Christians have been busy over the past six registering their supporters in Conservative riding associations so that they have a strong voice in choosing who will run.

But, not all Tories are in favor of the plans by FOC and others.

"The difficulty, from a party perspective, is that it begins to hijack the other agendas that parties have," Ross Haynes told the Globe and Mail. Haynes lost the Conservative nomination in the riding of Halifax to one of three "Christian, pro-family people" recommended by a minister at a religious rally this spring in Kentville, N.S.

Tristan Emmanuel, a Halifax evangelist with ties to Focus on the Family, makes no apologies.

"It's time we stopped apologizing and started defending who we are," he said. "The evangelical community in Canada, by and large, and socially conservative Catholics, are saying we have been far too heavenly minded and thus we have been of no earthly value for far too long, on too many fronts."

Darrel Reid, the Conservative Party candidate in Richmond, B.C., is a past president of Focus on the Family Canada. "The reason I entered this nomination contest is because I am really concerned about the direction our government is going," Reid told the Globe.

Rondo Thomas won the party's nomination in a suburban Toronto riding. Thomas is a top official with the Canada Christian College, which is run by Charles McVety, a senior director of the Defend Marriage Coalition.

Focus on the Family, based in Colorado Springs, Colorado has reportedly sent hundreds of thousands of dollars to its Canadian affiliate to wage an anti-gay campaign and the Roman Catholic Knights Of Columbus in the US recently spent nearly $100,000 to print two million postcards to be distributed in Catholic churches across Canada for people to send to Members of Parliament opposing gay marriage. (story)

The growing number of anti-gay candidates is making some moderate Conservative MPs nervous. "It's making the party look extreme and making me nervous," said one MP who asked that his name not be used.

But, the growing coziness between Christian conservative groups and the party should not be a surprise.

In April Conservative Party leader Stephen Harper addressed a rally on Parliament Hill organized by many of the groups now trying to take control of the Tories.

At the time he told the 15,000 people bussed in from across Canada that if his party is elected to govern he would would abolish the same-sex marriage law.


Harper and the Conservatives have been receiving help from the Republican Party. GOP advisers and consultants have been working with the party for more than a year.

Earlier this month moderate Conservative MP Belinda Stronach left the party and joined the Liberals. Stronach, who supports same-sex marriage said she had become disillusioned with the Tories and accused Harper of pandering to extremists. (story)

©365Gay.com 2005


 

aidanjm

Lifer
Aug 9, 2004
12,411
2
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Originally posted by: Stunt
abortion is a non-issue as many people voice this concern and has absolutely no representation in the House of Commons. The Conservative Party of Canada is pro-choice and i see Harper's opinion no worse than Liberals who are pro-life. Everyone can agree this will never become legislation, would kill the party forever and should not be a concern for any intelligent voter.

US right wing religious groups are infiltrating Canadian politics, don't be too surprised if the Tories move to outlaw abortion. :)
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
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First off, the US groups are advertising in Canada illegally. The Conservative party gets no money from them and the government is trying to put an end to this illegal activity. I do not like the advertisements one bit.

"(if you are not white, male, christian and heterosexual that is - of course you will be OK, Stunt)"

You have no idea what the Tories are like here, they are not near what the Republican Party is in the US and even then, you are walking a fine line with accusations.

With regards to the same-sex marriage debate. The Conservatives believe in perserving the traditional name of marriage and is in favour of giving all benifits of marriage and union status to all gays. There is no hate there, only protectiveness of a religious institution. Not being religious I am in favour of gay marriage, but at the same time respect the Conservatives view (as it is not hate or criticism but difference of opinion), the rest of the Conservative platform is what i like, you cannot be happy with everything a party has to offer.

Also, it is worth noting that 58% of backbench Liberal (governing party, proposing the gay marriage bill) do not support gay marriage and will side with the conservatives (where some conservatives will vote with it). The Liberal cabinet will be forced to vote for the bill, but most are against the motion. Some see this as undemocratic as it is supposed to be a free vote. Anyways, every political party in canada has at least one member against the gay marriage bill. Don't bring it all on the Conservatives.
 

stratman

Senior member
Oct 19, 2004
335
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Originally posted by: aidanjm
Originally posted by: Stunt
The people of Canada are sick of Paul Martin and the Liberals, we need a campaign to clear the misperceptions of the Tories. Fear mongering by the Liberals is just disgusting, reminds me of the Swiftboat smearing last election in the States.

The Tories look to be a frightening group of people (if you are not white, male, christian and heterosexual that is - of course you will be OK, Stunt)

I also think you are projecting repub traits on the Conservative party. IMO, the Conservative party here is farther left on the political spectrum then the Democrats in America. Both your major parties are very right-wing IMO. Furthermore, I kinda wish you wouldn't bring up sexuality, race, gender, and religion as accusations as a way of discrediting someone's opinion. I think it's what's on the inside that counts, not the colour of your skin.

That being said, (much to the frustration of Stunt :p) I probably won't vote Conservative in the next election. I'll probably spoil my ballot again, I'm not happy with any of the candidates in my riding. If the Liberals weren't so darn shady, I'd vote for them.

Cheers,
stratman
 

aidanjm

Lifer
Aug 9, 2004
12,411
2
0
Originally posted by: stratman
I also think you are projecting repub traits on the Conservative party. IMO, the Conservative party here is farther left on the political spectrum then the Democrats in America.

The question is whether the canadian conservative party is about to take a sharp dive to the right. There are some indications that this is the case.

Originally posted by: stratman
Furthermore, I kinda wish you wouldn't bring up sexuality, race, gender, and religion as accusations as a way of discrediting someone's opinion. I think it's what's on the inside that counts, not the colour of your skin.

My point is that white, male and heterosexual so-called 'fiscal conservatives' are often quite willing to put up with social illiberalism and persecution of disliked minorities (queers) if it means their guy gets elected. I doubt they'd be so willing if it was whites heteros or christians being persecuted.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,778
6,338
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Originally posted by: aidanjm
Originally posted by: stratman
I also think you are projecting repub traits on the Conservative party. IMO, the Conservative party here is farther left on the political spectrum then the Democrats in America.

The question is whether the canadian conservative party is about to take a sharp dive to the right. There are some indications that this is the case.

Originally posted by: stratman
Furthermore, I kinda wish you wouldn't bring up sexuality, race, gender, and religion as accusations as a way of discrediting someone's opinion. I think it's what's on the inside that counts, not the colour of your skin.

My point is that white, male and heterosexual so-called 'fiscal conservatives' are often quite willing to put up with social illiberalism and persecution of disliked minorities (queers) if it means their guy gets elected. I doubt they'd be so willing if it was whites heteros or christians being persecuted.

If they do they'd be doomed. They've been moving Left and are still considered too far Right on some issues. Don't let Stunt convince you that they are a shoo-in, they have come a long way back, but their future as Government is still very much up in the air.