Can You Comprehend the Holocaust?

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eigen

Diamond Member
Nov 19, 2003
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Originally posted by: vlk
Originally posted by: eigen
Originally posted by: Vic
While the Holocaust was a tragedy of the highest order, I see it in the context of WWII as a whole, where something like 100 million civilians were killed, more than that imprisoned or enslaved, and even more than that made homeless and/or financially ruined (exact numbers are and always will be debatable). While the Jews suffered greatly, they were not the only ones by a long shot. How many people did Stalin kill? How many did the Japanese kill?

There is a reason and a purpose for modern war, and that reason is greed, and that purpose is wealth redistribution.

And we are all complicit:
From the lips of Gen Curtis Lemay
"killed more persons in a six-hour period than at any time in the history of man."
"We killed off--what--twenty percent of the population of North Korea."

I personally don't think the jews to have been an exception but the rule.Kill your enemy given any means accesible.

Now, folks, if you want to talk about horrors, here's something fairly recent that most of you know nothing of (of course, since the media is not controlled by Armenians):

1915 Armenian Genocide committed by Ottoman Turkey (site: http://www.armenian-genocide.org/).

Now, the proportion of the people killed and the way they were killed (medieval torture) is just pure horror.

But, again, why should anyone learn anything about this, especially in our world where media is not controlled by any particular group, right?
Thats a good point.This is truly one of the invisble Holocausts of this century.My best friend in High School was armenian So I was luckliy introduced to this. But as you said the Armenians are not as prevalent in the media as the Jews so most have not heard about this ( unless you live in Glendale.:)
 

Stark

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2000
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Originally posted by: 91TTZ
Originally posted by: Stark
Stalin's purges had an estimated victim toll of around 1,400,000. that's not quite the nazi holocaust.

You need to go back to school.

Stalin's purges had a victim toll of around 20 million. The figure of 1,400,000 is roughly the number people executed for political offenses. The vast majority of the people killed were purposely starved to death or sent to labor camps in Siberia where they never returned alive.

from the BBC

Learn

more

read


well, thanks for showing everyone how ignorance and stupidity can lead to the sorts of attitudes that made the nazi holocaust possible. "the jews control..."

a Gulag was not a Nazi extermination camp like Auschwitz:
After the Bolshevik revolution of 1917 Lenin announced that any "class enemy", even in the absence of evidence of any crime against the state, could not be trusted and should not be treated better than a criminal. Since 1918, camp-type detention facilities were set up, as a reformed extension of earlier labour camps (katorgas), operated in Siberia as a part of penal system in Imperial Russia. The two main types were "Vechecka Special-purpose Camps" (?????? ?????? ???) and forced labor camps (?????? ?????????????? ?????). They were installed for various categories of people deemed dangerous for the state: for common criminals, for prisoners of Russian Civil War, for officials accused of corruption, sabotage and embezzlement, various political enemies and dissidents, as well as former aristocrats, businessmen and large land owners.
Soviet poster of the 1920s: The GPU strikes on the head the counter-revolutionary saboteur
Enlarge
Soviet poster of the 1920s: The GPU strikes on the head the counter-revolutionary saboteur

As an all-Union institution, the Gulag was officially established on April 25, 1930 as the "Ulag" by the OGPU order 130/63 in accordance with the Sovnarkom order 22 p. 248 dated April 7, 1930, and was renamed into Gulag in November. The Gulag grew quickly. Failed projects, bad harvests, accidents, poor production, and poor planning were routinely attributed to corruption and sabotage, and accused thieves and saboteurs on whom to put the blame were found en masse. At the same time the rapidly increasing need for natural resources and a booming industrialization program fueled a demand for cheap labour. Denunciations, quotas for arrest, summary executions, and secret police activity became widespread. The widest opportunities for an easy, in most cases automatic, conviction of any person of a crime were provided by the Article 58 of the Criminal Code of the RSFSR. In 1931?32, Gulag had approximately 200,000 prisoners in the camps; in 1935 ? approximately 1 million (including colonies), and after the Great Purge of 1937, nearly 2 million people. By contrast, the US prisoner labourer population (on chain gangs and in prisons) remained around a few hundred thousand prisoners.

During World War II, Gulag populations declined sharply, owing to mass "releases" of hundreds of thousands of prisoners who were conscripted and sent directly to the front lines, but mainly due to a steep rise in mortality in 1942?43. After WWII the number of inmates in prison camps and colonies rose again sharply and reached the number of approximately 2.5 million people by the early 1950s. While some of these were deserters and war criminals, there were also repatriated Russian prisoners of war and "Eastern workers", were universally accused of treason and "cooperation with an enemy" (formally, they did work for Nazis). Large numbers of civilians from the Russian territories which came under foreign occupation, as well as from the territories annexed by the Soviet Union after the war were also sent there. It was not uncommon for the survivors of Nazi camps to be transported directly to the Soviet labour camps.

For years after WWII, a significant minority of the inmates were Germans, Finns, Poles, Romanians and other POWs and persons from the foreign countries "liberated" by the Red Army.

The state continued to maintain Gulag for a while after Stalin's death in March of 1953. The subsequent amnesty program was limited to those who had to serve at most 5 years, therefore mostly those convicted of common crimes were then freed. The releases of political prisoners started in 1954 and became widespread, and also coupled with mass rehabilitations, after Nikita Khrushchev's denunciation of Stalinism in his Secret Speech at the 20th Congress of the CPSU in February, 1956.

Officially Gulag was terminated by the MVD order 20 of January 25, 1960, as the MVD itself was officially eliminated by the order 44-16 of Presidium of Supreme Council of the USSR, to reemerge as the KGB.

The total documentable deaths in the corrective-labour system from 1934 to 1953 amount to 1,054,000, including political and common prisoners; note that this does not include nearly 800,000 executions of "counterrevolutionaries", as they were generally conducted outside the camp system. From 1932 to 1940, at least 390,000 peasants died in places of labor settlements; this figure may overlap with the above, but, on the other hand, it does not include deaths outside the 1932-1940 period, or deaths among non-peasant internal exiles. The number of people who were prisoners at one point or the other is, of course, much larger, and one may assume that many of the survivors suffered permanent physical and psychological damage.
link

contrast that with:

Extermination camp (German Vernichtungslager) was the term applied to a group of camps set up by Nazi Germany during World War II for the express purpose of killing the Jews of Europe, although members of some other groups whom the Nazis wished to exterminate, such as Roma (Gypsies) and Soviet prisoners of war, as well as many Poles and others, were also killed in these camps. This was part of what has become known as the Holocaust. These camps are also known as death camps.

Extermination camps should be distinguished from concentration camps (such as Dachau and Belsen), which were mostly located in Germany and intended as places of incarceration and forced labor for a variety of "enemies of the state" or Nazi regime (such as Communists and homosexuals). In the early years of the Nazi regime, many Jews were sent to these camps, but after 1942 all Jews were deported to the extermination camps.

They should also be distinguished from slave labor camps, which were set up in all German-occupied countries to exploit the labor of prisoners of various kinds, including prisoners of war. Many Jews were worked to death in these camps, but eventually the Jewish labor force, no matter how useful to the German war effort, was destined for extermination. In all Nazi camps there were very high death rates as a result of starvation, disease and exhaustion, but only the extermination camps were designed specifically for mass killing.

The method of killing at these camps was by poison gas, usually in "gas chambers", although many prisoners were killed in mass shootings and by other means. The bodies of those killed were destroyed in crematoria (except at Sobibór where they were cremated on outdoor pyres), and the ashes buried or scattered.

if you can't see the difference between what the Nazis did and what happened under Stalin and a horribly corrupt Communist system of government that relied on forced labor, you might also like this sort of stuff:
As part of an ongoing phenomenon of Holocaust denial, Robert Faurisson claimed in 1979 that "the Nazis did not have gas chambers and did not attempt a genocide of Jews. He contended that the 'myth' of the gas chambers had been promoted by Zionists...for the benefit of the state of Israel and to the detriment of Germans and Palestinians."

These contentions have led some to conclude that the Holocaust was fabricated. For instance, revisionist Ernst Zündel issued pamphlets such as Did Six Million Really Die?.

However this is generally considered to be an example of revisionist history that is contradicted by ongoing research, as well as by the Nazis' own meticulous record-keeping.
(same link)

:|
 

91TTZ

Lifer
Jan 31, 2005
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Nice attempt at putting words in my mouth and claiming that I said/meant things that I didn't. Strawman arguments are so fun.

And if you kill someone, you kill someone. Sending someone to a prison camp to work until their death, or to a desert where they starve to death is no better than gassing someone. You are still forcibly ending their life.
 

Stark

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2000
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Originally posted by: 91TTZ
Nice attempt at putting words in my mouth and claiming that I said/meant things that I didn't. Strawman arguments are so fun.

And if you kill someone, you kill someone. Sending someone to a prison camp to work until their death, or to a desert where they starve to death is no better than gassing someone. You are still forcibly ending their life.

so why do we have a death penalty? isn't life in prison the same thing?
 

91TTZ

Lifer
Jan 31, 2005
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Originally posted by: Stark


so why do we have a death penalty? isn't life in prison the same thing?


If you get the death penalty in the US, you committed a serious crime to warrant it.

These victims in Germany, Armenia, and the Soviet Union were innocent and were put to death for no good reason. They were unwarranted mass killings.

 

vlk

Banned
Feb 10, 2005
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Stark, and Americans (and the world) know nothing (or very little, at best) of Armenian genocide exactly why?

Because Armenians are inferior people that do not deserve to be remembered?

Or does a certain group have control over media outlets and is only interested in promoting a certain story of certain people?
 

Stark

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2000
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your words:
I think the Jewish influence in the US media also pounds the point home more than you'd hear about it otherwise... The media is your view to our history and the outside world. Those that control the media you watch will determine what you can see.

if you don't see how those sorts of comments sound and awful lot like things said in Germany in the 1930s, you might want to go back to school, or at least lay off the Louis Farrakhan impersonation.
 

91TTZ

Lifer
Jan 31, 2005
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Originally posted by: Stark
your words:
I think the Jewish influence in the US media also pounds the point home more than you'd hear about it otherwise... The media is your view to our history and the outside world. Those that control the media you watch will determine what you can see.

if you don't see how those sorts of comments sound and awful lot like things said in Germany in the 1930s, you might want to go back to school, or at least lay off the Louis Farrakhan impersonation.

You are trying really hard to set up a strawman argument. How many fallacious arguments can you use in one thread?

Your accusations of political incorrectness are useless. I'm not going to fall for it.
 

Stark

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2000
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Originally posted by: vlk
Stark, and Americans (and the world) know nothing (or very little, at best) of Armenian genocide exactly why?

Because Armenians are inferior people that do not deserve to be remembered?

Or does a certain group have control over media outlets and is only interested in promoting a certain story of certain people?

maybe it's because my name is german, not armenian, and i had two grandfathers who fought against the Axis in WW2? or maybe because the thread is about the Nazi Holocaust and not the Armenian genocide?
 

vlk

Banned
Feb 10, 2005
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Originally posted by: Stark
your words:
I think the Jewish influence in the US media also pounds the point home more than you'd hear about it otherwise... The media is your view to our history and the outside world. Those that control the media you watch will determine what you can see.

if you don't see how those sorts of comments sound and awful lot like things said in Germany in the 1930s, you might want to go back to school, or at least lay off the Louis Farrakhan impersonation.

Stark, what I see happening here, is mostly poorly educated in the subject matter people ganging up on those who dare to have an opinion that is different from the one that is fed via mass media.

Now, that does remind me of atmosphere during a despot's rule.
 

amoeba

Diamond Member
Aug 7, 2003
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Originally posted by: Stark
Originally posted by: 91TTZ
Nice attempt at putting words in my mouth and claiming that I said/meant things that I didn't. Strawman arguments are so fun.

And if you kill someone, you kill someone. Sending someone to a prison camp to work until their death, or to a desert where they starve to death is no better than gassing someone. You are still forcibly ending their life.

so why do we have a death penalty? isn't life in prison the same thing?


no not the same thing. you are fed adequate calories in prison and not overworked to death.
 

91TTZ

Lifer
Jan 31, 2005
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This seems to be a recurring theme in internet forums:

1. When the subject of Jewish people comes up, you must address the topic in a sympathetic, reparatory tone or you will be accused of being a Nazi sympathizer.

2. At that point you must cave in to the hollow accusation and proceed in the aformentioned tone. If you don't, you are a Nazi, and problably in the KKK and every other evil group out there.
 

vlk

Banned
Feb 10, 2005
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Originally posted by: Stark
Originally posted by: vlk
Stark, and Americans (and the world) know nothing (or very little, at best) of Armenian genocide exactly why?

Because Armenians are inferior people that do not deserve to be remembered?

Or does a certain group have control over media outlets and is only interested in promoting a certain story of certain people?

maybe it's because my name is german, not armenian, and i had two grandfathers who fought against the Axis in WW2? or maybe because the thread is about the Nazi Holocaust and not the Armenian genocide?


And those two points are related to the fact that Armenian genocide is pretty much never mentioned in mass media exactly how?
 

zugzoog

Senior member
Jun 29, 2004
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Originally posted by: vlk


Also, concentration camps were invented by Russians, namely by Trotsky.

Correction required.

There are earlier accounts of Concentration camps created by the British during the Boer War. Boer Concentration camps

While no where as extensive as the Nazi's or Soviets, this is as far as I know the first use of concentration camps. If there are earlier, I would be happy to be notified.
 

eigen

Diamond Member
Nov 19, 2003
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Originally posted by: vlk
Stark, and Americans (and the world) know nothing (or very little, at best) of Armenian genocide exactly why?

Because Armenians are inferior people that do not deserve to be remembered?

Or does a certain group have control over media outlets and is only interested in promoting a certain story of certain people?

Stop trying vlk.It won't happen they will not admit that jews are to a larger degree than other connected to the media.How many jewish Producers Actors and Directors do you know of:

Jewish Actors

How many Armenian or Native American?
How many films mention the Jewish Holocaust I can think of a good dozen off the top of my head.
How many about the Armenian Holocaust. Just one that I know of.
 

Stark

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2000
7,735
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Originally posted by: vlk
Originally posted by: Stark
your words:
I think the Jewish influence in the US media also pounds the point home more than you'd hear about it otherwise... The media is your view to our history and the outside world. Those that control the media you watch will determine what you can see.

if you don't see how those sorts of comments sound and awful lot like things said in Germany in the 1930s, you might want to go back to school, or at least lay off the Louis Farrakhan impersonation.

Stark, what I see happening here, is mostly poorly educated in the subject matter people ganging up on those who dare to have an opinion that is different from the one that is fed via mass media.

Now, that does remind me of atmosphere during a despot's rule.

fact: in 1918 20 million people died from the flu...

q: so what does that have to do with my debate with 91TTZ regarding the difference between the Nazis policy to exterminate an entire ethnic/religious race in Europe versus Stalin's use of forced labor to stay in power and prop up a failed political system?

answer: about as much as random facts about the Armenian genocide under the Ottomans in 1915?
 

91TTZ

Lifer
Jan 31, 2005
14,374
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Originally posted by: Stark



q: so what does that have to do with my debate with 91TTZ regarding the difference between the Nazis policy to exterminate an entire ethnic/religious race in Europe versus Stalin's use of forced labor to stay in power and prop up a failed political system?

No, you're just falling for the view heavily promoted in this country that the Holocaust was a "special" kind of genocide, one that is more important than any other genocides and intentional mass killings that have occurred, as if their lives weren't worth as much.

You don't hear much about the mass killings in African either. Is it because we don't think they're worth as much? Or is it that their story hasn't been able to be told as loudly?
 

vlk

Banned
Feb 10, 2005
19
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Why don?t you all gang up (well, you already did) and just go ahead and lynch 91TTZ; now, that will teach him peace, love and understanding.
 

Stark

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2000
7,735
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Originally posted by: eigen
Originally posted by: vlk
Stark, and Americans (and the world) know nothing (or very little, at best) of Armenian genocide exactly why?

Because Armenians are inferior people that do not deserve to be remembered?

Or does a certain group have control over media outlets and is only interested in promoting a certain story of certain people?

Stop trying vlk.It won't happen they will not admit that jews are to a larger degree than other connected to the media.How many jewish Producers Actors and Directors do you know of:

Jewish Actors

How many Armenian or Native American?
How many films mention the Jewish Holocaust I can think of a good dozen off the top of my head.
How many about the Armenian Holocaust. Just one that I know of.

so show me the Jewish run media influences that:
1. started this thread
2. are referenced in this thread
 

91TTZ

Lifer
Jan 31, 2005
14,374
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Originally posted by: Stark

so show me the Jewish run media influences that:
1. started this thread
2. are referenced in this thread

Your requests for unrelated proof is getting ridiculous. Nobody said that "jewish run influences" started this thread. Are you trying to hide your lack of a point by making ludicrous demands?

If you want this thread to continue, I need proof that you're not an alien, a picture of a bowl of Cheerios, and the complete filmography of Ron Jeremy.
 

Squisher

Lifer
Aug 17, 2000
21,204
66
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Originally posted by: vlk
Stark, and Americans (and the world) know nothing (or very little, at best) of Armenian genocide exactly why?

Because Armenians are inferior people that do not deserve to be remembered?

Or does a certain group have control over media outlets and is only interested in promoting a certain story of certain people?


Being half Armenian myself and having been told first hand accounts of the killing throughout my early life, I still can see why the Jewish Holocaust garners a greater share of attention.

The Jews were persecuted throughout history culminating with Holocaust. They then set about recapturing a Jewish state.

The whole tale is filled with drama from beginning to end.


 

Doboji

Diamond Member
May 18, 2001
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Originally posted by: vlk


Why don?t you all gang up (well, you already did) and just go ahead and lynch 91TTZ; now, that will teach him peace, love and understanding.


I'm down.... where's some rope?
 

vlk

Banned
Feb 10, 2005
19
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OK, my last comment for today:

it seems that every time someone brings up Holocaust in any context, at least one person comes out and says that Jews were not the only ones to suffer this horribly, and, immediately, he is branded nothing short of a "Nazi". Most people don't even know what a "Nazi" is, interestingly enough.

Anyway, after some bickering and googling facts, it eventually comes down to statements of the "well, this thread is about Jews and Holocaust, so piss off with your Soviet, Armenian, etc. stories" sort, which actually only further proves the point that people are so brainwashed, they won't even listen to a mention of another peoples' tragedy.

I think that if all were more tolerant and allowing for different points of view, it could work out for the better.

But the majority just always seems to want to silence and lynch the ones with a different opinion. Just like in Hitler's Germany and Soviet Russia.
 

91TTZ

Lifer
Jan 31, 2005
14,374
1
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Originally posted by: Doboji
Originally posted by: vlk


Why don?t you all gang up (well, you already did) and just go ahead and lynch 91TTZ; now, that will teach him peace, love and understanding.


I'm down.... where's some rope?

It's conveniently hanging around your neck.

It's nice that you want to lynch me for voicing an opinion that you don't agree with.
 

Doboji

Diamond Member
May 18, 2001
7,912
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76
Originally posted by: vlk
OK, my last comment for today:

it seems that every time someone brings up Holocaust in any context, at least one person comes out and says that Jews were not the only ones to suffer this horribly, and, immediately, he is branded nothing short of a "Nazi". Most people don't even know what a "Nazi" is, interestingly enough.

Anyway, after some bickering and googling facts, it eventually comes down to statements of the "well, this thread is about Jews and Holocaust, so piss off with your Soviet, Armenian, etc. stories" sort, which actually only further proves the point that people are so brainwashed, they won't even listen to a mention of another peoples' tragedy.

I think that if all were more tolerant and allowing for different points of view, it could work out for the better.

But the majority just always seems to want to silence and lynch the ones with a different opinion. Just like in Hitler's Germany and Soviet Russia.


No you idiot.... I mentioned the suffering in Rwanda long before you bastards went off on your Jewish owned media conspiracy hate-fest...

If you read the thread... and stop long enough to think about it... you'll see you're on the wrong side of this discussion.