• Guest, The rules for the P & N subforum have been updated to prohibit "ad hominem" or personal attacks against other posters. See the full details in the post "Politics and News Rules & Guidelines."

Can we stop the nonsense?

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alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,489
0
0
Originally posted by: phillyTIM
I fear this kinda system will prevent some good political debate and ideas from being pushed out.

Seems we're castrating the forum over a couple whiners who are mad because they can't always have the last word in their forced aggression of their ideas.
/blatant flame to smoke out the drama queens
Yes, you are correct. You wouldn't be able to force your aggressive comments down everyone's throats anymore under this.
/blatant flame to smoke out the drama queens

You don't like the system being proposed, because you'd be knocked out of it in short order. Maybe I would too, but I'd accept it because I broke the rules.
 

Insane3D

Elite Member
May 24, 2000
19,446
0
0
Originally posted by: phillyTIM
I fear this kinda system will prevent some good political debate and ideas from being pushed out.

Seems we're castrating the forum over a couple whiners who are mad because they can't always have the last word in their forced aggression of their ideas.
No it won't. Regardless of what you are discussing, you should be able to do it without attacks. There wouldn't be restrictions on what could be said, just personal attacks which have no positive value. How do you think ideas or debate would be harmed?
 

phillyTIM

Golden Member
Jan 12, 2001
1,942
10
81
As would I accept it. If you look back in my history, I rarely engaged in personal flames. I've been a good participant in the forum for my 600+ posts. I've nothing to fear.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,872
4,214
126
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
So much for the purpose of this thread. If people aren't willing to take the lead in respect to checking themselves first then there is no hope. For as much lipservice as has been paid to this issue here- it sure doesn't seem to have affected peoples actions. I guess I get to join that too now - because I felt the need to rant/berate people for being self absorded hypocrites...must be that dasmed "do as I say, not as I do" ailment that has infected us all.

Meh, have fun or don't, flame away - I don't care - I give up.

CkG
I would say stay the course. You and I cannot moderate others, and really, do you want to? None of us has earned the right to shut another up.

I am very much for the idea of personal responsibility and accountability to one's self. If you cannot control another, control yourself. This is where character shows, not in the occasional failure, but maintaining the consistent goal of becoming better. What you do does not depend on the behavior of another here. It depends on you. How you comport yourself determines the respect you earn. Not what you drive, what you do, what you make. Some of the richest men I have known were dirt poor, and some of the poorest millionares. Those with the most as often as not had the least. All those material things can be gone in an instant. You always have yourself, whether you like it or not.


Many like to comment on Moonbeam and his mirror. What I have to say about mirrors is that if you can look in yours at the end of the day without concern, satisfied that you did well by others, that you acted with honor when no one was looking, that you did something good that day, then that mirror shows you to be a free man. If not, you are a sorry slave even if you never had to lift another finger due to material wealth.

All this to say, do your best and others may do the same because of your example. If not, you remain a person worthy of respect.
 

Insane3D

Elite Member
May 24, 2000
19,446
0
0
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
So much for the purpose of this thread. If people aren't willing to take the lead in respect to checking themselves first then there is no hope. For as much lipservice as has been paid to this issue here- it sure doesn't seem to have affected peoples actions. I guess I get to join that too now - because I felt the need to rant/berate people for being self absorded hypocrites...must be that dasmed "do as I say, not as I do" ailment that has infected us all.

Meh, have fun or don't, flame away - I don't care - I give up.

CkG
I would say stay the course. You and I cannot moderate others, and really, do you want to? None of us has earned the right to shut another up.

I am very much for the idea of personal responsibility and accountability to one's self. If you cannot control another, control yourself. This is where character shows, not in the occasional failure, but maintaining the consistent goal of becoming better. What you do does not depend on the behavior of another here. It depends on you. How you comport yourself determines the respect you earn. Not what you drive, what you do, what you make. Some of the richest men I have known were dirt poor, and some of the poorest millionares. Those with the most as often as not had the least. All those material things can be gone in an instant. You always have yourself, whether you like it or not.


Many like to comment on Moonbeam and his mirror. What I have to say about mirrors is that if you can look in yours at the end of the day without concern, satisfied that you did well by others, that you acted with honor when no one was looking, that you did something good that day, then that mirror shows you to be a free man. If not, you are a sorry slave even if you never had to lift another finger due to material wealth.

All this to say, do your best and others may do the same because of your example. If not, you remain a person worthy of respect.
Winston, I agree. However, if some people refuse to have said responsibility, little to no improvement will result, and the acts of a few will likely hurt the rest of us. If there are no consequences for actions, what effort will people put into changing. This thread is a testament to that fact, IMO.

:)
 

phillyTIM

Golden Member
Jan 12, 2001
1,942
10
81
I think we're by far worrying about too much around here.

Does some anyonymous person's post around here REALLY keep you awake at night where you have sleep loss? Is the loss of your opinion going to hurt you financially? Is there a job performance rating anyone is shooting for around here?

Put your time in for as long as you'd like, then leave; come back and see what others have said in the meantime. It's all really inconsequential. All this banter over something you guys really can't control anyways is just a futile waste of time.

I'd like to see a happy community that can agree to disagree just as much as anyone or moderator around here; but in hot topics of politics and religiion, people are overly passionate, and you just either inhale it and let it turn your face blue, or exhale and smile and move on. Geezus.
 

phillyTIM

Golden Member
Jan 12, 2001
1,942
10
81
JohnGalt's, ATech's resident French-hating bigot and bush apologist, on his holy crusade of threatening me with the FBI or Secret Service or whatnot over something that is not in my post here. His quote has words he fed into what I said, which now invalidates anything he spews out. Am I losing sleep tonight? Not a bit. I'm chuckling over his own incompetence. Will anyone else lose sleep over his lies or whatever he thought I said? Highly improbable. All this is doing now is causing less joy out of all our participation here. Unfortunately, if you let that happen, then JohnGalt or eTech or CAD have won in their quest to drag everyone else down with them.

Not that that would really cause anyone to lose sleep. *YAWN*

The nonsence won't be stopped until we stop entertaining their rhetoric and childish antics, and ignore them.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,872
4,214
126
Originally posted by: Insane3D
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
So much for the purpose of this thread. If people aren't willing to take the lead in respect to checking themselves first then there is no hope. For as much lipservice as has been paid to this issue here- it sure doesn't seem to have affected peoples actions. I guess I get to join that too now - because I felt the need to rant/berate people for being self absorded hypocrites...must be that dasmed "do as I say, not as I do" ailment that has infected us all.

Meh, have fun or don't, flame away - I don't care - I give up.

CkG
I would say stay the course. You and I cannot moderate others, and really, do you want to? None of us has earned the right to shut another up.

I am very much for the idea of personal responsibility and accountability to one's self. If you cannot control another, control yourself. This is where character shows, not in the occasional failure, but maintaining the consistent goal of becoming better. What you do does not depend on the behavior of another here. It depends on you. How you comport yourself determines the respect you earn. Not what you drive, what you do, what you make. Some of the richest men I have known were dirt poor, and some of the poorest millionares. Those with the most as often as not had the least. All those material things can be gone in an instant. You always have yourself, whether you like it or not.


Many like to comment on Moonbeam and his mirror. What I have to say about mirrors is that if you can look in yours at the end of the day without concern, satisfied that you did well by others, that you acted with honor when no one was looking, that you did something good that day, then that mirror shows you to be a free man. If not, you are a sorry slave even if you never had to lift another finger due to material wealth.

All this to say, do your best and others may do the same because of your example. If not, you remain a person worthy of respect.
Winston, I agree. However, if some people refuse to have said responsibility, little to no improvement will result, and the acts of a few will likely hurt the rest of us. If there are no consequences for actions, what effort will people put into changing. This thread is a testament to that fact, IMO.

:)
I agree that it is necessary at times to enforce rules for those who will not assume responsibility. That is why moderators have the power over us that they do. For whatever reason they do not exercise it, whether it is increased latitude due to the inherently contentious nature of political discussion, or sad to say, that we have been assigned to some purgatory to fend for ourselves because of less than adult behavior I cannot say. Until we are granted the power to enforce behavior, any discussion of repercussions is moot.

I wonder what the consensus of the moderators is on this topic? I am sure they have been following it, perhaps with a sense amusement, or curiousity of where this will lead.

Without the authority, how would consequences come about?

 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: Insane3D
We could also set up a graduated punishment system where after so many offenses, the poster can't visit the P & A forum indefinately.

As far as verification, I don't think that would work. If everyone knew who the mods were, then those members would get constant pm's and such. The system would work better, IMO, if it was anonymous.

I think these demi MOD's would or should simply be able to Lock a thread and post the why for. Then ask for assistance... but the rule must be just vile comments or way off topic stuff, like I sometimes post.. :(

John Galt has a right to his positions and even if he uses a descriptive analogy within his post it should be OK just as everyone else does... in some manner. I read his posts but, hardly ever respond and that is because I don't want to be lambasted by his sharp keystrokes...:) but, I support his right to post as he does.. You can ignore but, that is impossible sometimes when it is so sharp and directed at you.. or what you feel is untrue and you need to defend yourself... all understandable but, can't that stuff go PM after the first retort in kind?

Winston said it best... as far as rules go.. I think.


 

Insane3D

Elite Member
May 24, 2000
19,446
0
0
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith

I agree that it is necessary at times to enforce rules for those who will not assume responsibility. That is why moderators have the power over us that they do. For whatever reason they do not exercise it, whether it is increased latitude due to the inherently contentious nature of political discussion, or sad to say, that we have been assigned to some purgatory to fend for ourselves because of less than adult behavior I cannot say. Until we are granted the power to enforce behavior, any discussion of repercussions is moot.

I wonder what the consensus of the moderators is on this topic? I am sure they have been following it, perhaps with a sense amusement, or curiousity of where this will lead.

Without the authority, how would consequences come about?
I think the point right now is to come up with solutions. Right now we don't have any mod powers, but maybe that could become a reality if the mods so choose. I'm just trying to work towards a solution as self restraint obviously isn't happening. This thread is about being more civil, and more than half the posts are nothing more than the blame game and more insults. We have even graduated to threats now.

Of course, having everyone be responsible for themselves is the optimal solution, but that has basically been the situation around here for awhile and it seems to be far from working. If anything, it just seems to get worse. Even if most of use here decide to "turn over a new leaf", so to speak, if there are still the few who insist on continuing on this path, it will likely ruin it for the rest of us.
 

Insane3D

Elite Member
May 24, 2000
19,446
0
0
You can ignore but, that is impossible sometimes when it is so sharp and directed at you.. or what you feel is untrue and you need to defend yourself... all understandable but, can't that stuff go PM after the first retort in kind?
No offense intended, but I think that is a bit of a cop-out. There really is no reason why, no matter how bad the insult, someone needs to respond. If what you are accused of is false, and you know it, just ignore it. I work in the hotel industry, and I have had people say some pretty awful things to my face when they are upset, and I am able to restrain myself. If anything, it should have even less weight in something like a internet forum.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,872
4,214
126
Originally posted by: Insane3D
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Originally posted by: Insane3D
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
So much for the purpose of this thread. If people aren't willing to take the lead in respect to checking themselves first then there is no hope. For as much lipservice as has been paid to this issue here- it sure doesn't seem to have affected peoples actions. I guess I get to join that too now - because I felt the need to rant/berate people for being self absorded hypocrites...must be that dasmed "do as I say, not as I do" ailment that has infected us all.

Meh, have fun or don't, flame away - I don't care - I give up.

CkG
I would say stay the course. You and I cannot moderate others, and really, do you want to? None of us has earned the right to shut another up.

I am very much for the idea of personal responsibility and accountability to one's self. If you cannot control another, control yourself. This is where character shows, not in the occasional failure, but maintaining the consistent goal of becoming better. What you do does not depend on the behavior of another here. It depends on you. How you comport yourself determines the respect you earn. Not what you drive, what you do, what you make. Some of the richest men I have known were dirt poor, and some of the poorest millionares. Those with the most as often as not had the least. All those material things can be gone in an instant. You always have yourself, whether you like it or not.


Many like to comment on Moonbeam and his mirror. What I have to say about mirrors is that if you can look in yours at the end of the day without concern, satisfied that you did well by others, that you acted with honor when no one was looking, that you did something good that day, then that mirror shows you to be a free man. If not, you are a sorry slave even if you never had to lift another finger due to material wealth.

All this to say, do your best and others may do the same because of your example. If not, you remain a person worthy of respect.
Winston, I agree. However, if some people refuse to have said responsibility, little to no improvement will result, and the acts of a few will likely hurt the rest of us. If there are no consequences for actions, what effort will people put into changing. This thread is a testament to that fact, IMO.

:)
I agree that it is necessary at times to enforce rules for those who will not assume responsibility. That is why moderators have the power over us that they do. For whatever reason they do not exercise it, whether it is increased latitude due to the inherently contentious nature of political discussion, or sad to say, that we have been assigned to some purgatory to fend for ourselves because of less than adult behavior I cannot say. Until we are granted the power to enforce behavior, any discussion of repercussions is moot.

I wonder what the consensus of the moderators is on this topic? I am sure they have been following it, perhaps with a sense amusement, or curiousity of where this will lead.

Without the authority, how would consequences come about?
I think the point right now is to come up with solutions. Right now we don't have any mod powers, but maybe that could become a reality if the mods so choose. I'm just trying to work towards a solution as self restraint obviously isn't happening. This thread is about being more civil, and more than half the posts are nothing more than the blame game and more insults. We have even graduated to threats now.

Of course, having everyone be responsible for themselves is the optimal solution, but that has basically been the situation around here for awhile and it seems to be far from working. If anything, it just seems to get worse. Even if most of use here decide to "turn over a new leaf", so to speak, if there are still the few who insist on continuing on this path, it will likely ruin it for the rest of us.
Well, we could always go after them with a pointed stick ;)

Hey, gotta have my humor too :D
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
67,360
4,075
126
I posted this in the thread titled "Is America heading towards a 2nd Civil War?" and was conscious at the time of how much it applies here:

My personal opinion is that forums like this one allow people to see and experience that war. A forum like this, brought to us through the efforts of a single person, both provides and increase the 'glue' you speak of which binds our nation.

We are a nation of different races, creeds, religions, parties, and so on and on. We are a nation of differences where difference is celebrated or should be. This place not only showcases that difference, but allows centrifugal isolationist exclusivity to ablate in the light of day. Here we can rub shoulders with our fellow man. It is a great gift and a service to the nation.

 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
0
0
Originally posted by: phillyTIM
I admit to nothing, and even if I did post a fraction of what JG said (who is a proven LIAR), it was only to smoke out the leeching lamer drama queens around here, to see how serious they were about not flaming. And sure enough the biggest one of all didn't take long to be smoked out! I absolutely have no respect for JG, as I said--my gloves are off with him. Bring him on.
"was only to smoke out the leeching lamer drama queens around here, to see how serious they were about not flaming"

In other words, you were trolling which is one of the reasons this forum has deteriorated.

What do you call "leeching lamer drama queens" if not a flame?


I'm willing to help improve the forum but the crap such as that has got to stop or there will be no improvement.



 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: Insane3D
You can ignore but, that is impossible sometimes when it is so sharp and directed at you.. or what you feel is untrue and you need to defend yourself... all understandable but, can't that stuff go PM after the first retort in kind?
No offense intended, but I think that is a bit of a cop-out. There really is no reason why, no matter how bad the insult, someone needs to respond. If what you are accused of is false, and you know it, just ignore it. I work in the hotel industry, and I have had people say some pretty awful things to my face when they are upset, and I am able to restrain myself. If anything, it should have even less weight in something like a internet forum.
This is true of course and it is a 'cop-out'. Not everyone, however, operates on this forum in their 'Adult ego state'. You see, (my observation without scientific or psychoanalytical theories applied :)) Folks come here for various reasons. Obviously! (I said it for you :)) Each has his or her own purpose for taking the time to be here and participate. You can read the postings of each of us and gleam that purpose because it becomes obvious over time. Having said that, I also know that if folks are required to materially alter their posting style or content it will adversely and materially impact the reason they are here in the first place. For every rule that obviates a member's reason to be here it will also cause them to leave eventually. Some would say "good" because it won't affect them... but, it will affect someone. That is the unfairness. There exist Liable and Slander laws... these are explicit in what they mean. Would they apply here? I don't know. Should they? No!. This is fantasy land and we are all on a ride. Those with motion sickness should maybe not get on... so to speak... Only Vile comments (what are vile comments?) should be banned. They can serve no purpose either to let the child ego play or to induce the recipient to scurry and hide.. If folks want to use 'fallacy' arguments then Etech and UQ and JGalt and Moonbeam, Winston and everyone should be allowed to say "dummy your an idiot" or whatever because that is what they feel..
If you want rules then there are going to be some that don't like this one or that one and you're back to the gate. I don't care either way. I like rules being an Accountant, I guess and I also don't like rules being a Liberal..:)
I just want something so that everyone can 'play' without too much change...
But, again I've not yet seen what the MOD folks have to say...

before I forget... IMHO

 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
67,360
4,075
126
Everything would be cool if it weren't for the other guy. You are somebody else's other guy.

I wouldn't react but.... You are somebody else's 'but'.

I see the mote in my neighbor's eye but not the beam in my own.

1. Participants in this forum recognize as a condition of participation that no matter how strongly they may believe their own point of view, others see their view as nothing but a matter of opinion. You may argue your point of view as truth, but may not expect or demand that others will accord you that dignity.

2. Those disagreeing with another's point of view are to the other person merely expressing an opinion. There can be no expectation or demand that your objection be treated as truth.

3. Outbursts and personal attacks that occur as a result of the fact that someone has dismissed your idea as opinion, in consequence of your acknowledgment of 1 and 2, are the result not of moral justification and rectitude, but your own personal immaturity. Personal attacks are an admission of personal failure to persuade and childish behavior.

4. Childish behavior, while destructive of the flow of rational ideas is vital for the evolution of self. Nobody grows up without first being a child. The suppression of feelings that are present, in order to maintain a false mask of maturity, is as destructive as dumping on others without invitation. Those who are willing to help you grow have placed an X in their sig. Attack them and not any others.

5. Points that blow holes in your arguments, or otherwise expose weaknesses in your thought are not necessarily personal attacks although they may feel that way.
 

phillyTIM

Golden Member
Jan 12, 2001
1,942
10
81
Perhaps they just need to cut out the P&N forum all together, and get back to a full-computer hardware discussion board as its purpose is.

The heart of political discussions are just ranting anyways, if some whining babies can't take other people's differing opinions without going off on a row, and those whiners drag it down for the rest of us, then maybe this Politics discussion just needs to go.

All problems solved.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,894
46
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: etech
Originally posted by: phillyTIM
I admit to nothing, and even if I did post a fraction of what JG said (who is a proven LIAR), it was only to smoke out the leeching lamer drama queens around here, to see how serious they were about not flaming. And sure enough the biggest one of all didn't take long to be smoked out! I absolutely have no respect for JG, as I said--my gloves are off with him. Bring him on.
"was only to smoke out the leeching lamer drama queens around here, to see how serious they were about not flaming"

In other words, you were trolling which is one of the reasons this forum has deteriorated.

What do you call "leeching lamer drama queens" if not a flame?


I'm willing to help improve the forum but the crap such as that has got to stop or there will be no improvement.
Many people have admitted to this "trolling" you speak of. Just their way of expressing their inabilities to post serious content, I wouldn't worry about or fret over it. However. the constant same type over and over lame Bush bashing posts without any real merits are annoying though, would be nice to just be able to hit delete on them or keep locking them up so maybe the few that keep doing it over and over again finally give up and go on elsewhere. There is no justifiable contribution in them other than taking up space.

To clarify, talking about an origination post, a little different than when the first thing these bashers post in every other thread is a bashing, just have to ignore those in the thread. True can also ignore the bashing origination thread too but waste of time in opening them to see the same thing again.

Are we having fun yet?






 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: Insane3D
You can ignore but, that is impossible sometimes when it is so sharp and directed at you.. or what you feel is untrue and you need to defend yourself... all understandable but, can't that stuff go PM after the first retort in kind?
No offense intended, but I think that is a bit of a cop-out. There really is no reason why, no matter how bad the insult, someone needs to respond. If what you are accused of is false, and you know it, just ignore it. I work in the hotel industry, and I have had people say some pretty awful things to my face when they are upset, and I am able to restrain myself. If anything, it should have even less weight in something like a internet forum.
The problem with this is that when a lie goes un-refuted (?), it gains credibility. Repeat the lie often enough and it begins to become accepted as fact. If someone calls you a moron, I agree you can ignore it. It's just name-calling. If they misrepresent your beliefs or position or words, it's a different story.
 

CaptnKirk

Lifer
Jul 25, 2002
10,053
0
71
Fight nice kids, I'm going to Florida for a week, but I'll check in on Sunday to see who made the obituary column.
 

Gaard

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2002
8,911
0
0
Gaard is a Saddam supporter.
Gaard is a Bush-Bitch. (Yes, I've been called both.)

Gaard is an Israel apologist.
Gaard is a Palistine apologist. (Yes, I've been called both.)

Gaard is a moron.

Gaard is an idiot.


For the record, I'm none of the above...IMO. ;) (just getting that out of the way if I'm not going to be allowed to defend myself in the future.)

**at least I've never been called a c0cksucker**




 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
67,360
4,075
126
The problem with this is that when a lie goes un-refuted (?), it gains credibility. Repeat the lie often enough and it begins to become accepted as fact. If someone calls you a moron, I agree you can ignore it. It's just name-calling. If they misrepresent your beliefs or position or words, it's a different story.
----------------------------------
An excellent point, Bowfinger. It would seem that the Politics and News Forum isn't just about politics, but is itself political. Various people are running for various offices and maneuvering for various positions using all the political techniques of this all too real a part of the real world. As in any real world political situation even the most altruistic of players will have to keep one eye on the game. Negative and dirty tricks politics will arise here as easily as on the TV. A lot of the noise and complaining, I would wager, however, since here there's a fair chance to respond, may occur in those cases where the rules get reversed.

Mulla Nasrudin ran to his neighbors farm proclaiming, "Your bull has knocked down our fence and gored my cow, I demand compensation." "Whoa there", said the neighbor, "this is a natural act. No compensation is due." "Wait" replied the Mulla, "I said that wrong. It was my bull that gored your cow." "Ah" said the neighbor, " now that's an entirely different case."

When I first came to this board, way back in BBS days, it was a thicket of right winged opinion, intelligent opinions, like mine, were comparatively rare. :D Part of the reason, I think, was you faced a barrage of you spoke. Seems like now, though, it's sunshine in America and the dawning of a new day. The overwhelming monopoly of the right has been broken and the bulls pass through both ways. Those who like to be comfortably unchallenged are starting to bray. Their mirror image on the left has risen and they don't like what they see.
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
Originally posted by: Gaard
Gaard is a Saddam supporter.
Gaard is a Bush-Bitch. (Yes, I've been called both.)

Gaard is an Israel apologist.
Gaard is a Palistine apologist. (Yes, I've been called both.)

Gaard is a moron.

Gaard is an idiot.


For the record, I'm none of the above...IMO. ;) (just getting that out of the way if I'm not going to be allowed to defend myself in the future.)

**at least I've never been called a c0cksucker**
Wow, Gaard, you're truly living a double-life ;) As for that last thing, I hear that WILL buy you a tasty two-week vacation. I guess some words are more hurtful than others? I don't really believe that, but I guess the mods do.
 

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