Can we ever remake public schools to get costs under control and better results?

[kranky]

Our city's public school system approved their budget for 2011. It's over a half-billion dollars - $540 million to be exact. That works out to $20,000 per student for one year in a school system where 35% drop out before graduation. And that's $15 million more than in 2010.

It seems unbelievable to me that $20,000 per student per year can't produce better results. I think we've long passed the point of where "we have to invest in the children to improve their education" has any credibility at all. I have a friend with a kid in 3rd grade who can barely read "See Jack run."

I served for a few years on an advisory board in the school system for vocational education. At our meetings I saw tons of high-priced Ph.Ds babbling about how great a job they are doing (they love to use their buzzwords so you can't understand them), but there was no money to get a whiteboard for a classroom.

I have no dog in the hunt since I don't have kids, and I don't have a problem with paying school taxes because education IS important. But what I don't understand is why parents tolerate the mediocrity and waste that is inherent in the system as it is. Why do they let their kids get pushed up to the next grade when they can't do the work? Why do people put up with it?

 

[Genx87]

The bottom line is we arent getting a very good return on our public investment with our school system. But will anybody fix the problem? Not with parents who dont want to get involved, administrators\politicians scared to rock the boat for fear of not looking like they care about kids, and teacher unions who have everything on lock down. So we will continue to overspend for what we are getting.

 

[spidey07]

Charter schools are the answer. Higher quality education, lower costs.

 

[manimal]

Bring back hitting the students ......maybe expand to waterboarding....

 

[JeepinEd]

Yes. Get rid of the unions & evaluate all teachers on a yearly basis.

Here in CA, Gov. Elect brown, just got through telling teachers & union members how dire our financial situation is ($26+ Billion dollar deficit). Their response? F.U. we want more money...think of the children...
BTW, CA teachers are the 2nd highest paid in the nation, just a tad lower than NY.

 

[Patranus]

We have them.
They are called charter schools.
They give parents choice and provide "the system" with competition.
They are VERY successful.
They don't have unions.
"progressives" oppose them.

 

[IBMer]

We have them.
They are called charter schools.
They give parents choice and provide "the system" with competition.
They are VERY successful.
They don't have unions.
"progressives" oppose them.

Would charter schools be as successful with the same uncaring parents that flood the public schools?

Charter schools are as successful, because just about 100 percent of the parents care about their kids future or they wouldn't be in a private school.

 

[Patranus]

Would charter schools be as successful with the same uncaring parents that flood the public schools?

Charter schools are as successful, because just about 100 percent of the parents care about their kids future or they wouldn't be in a private school.

A charter school isn't a private school.

Education needs to be redefined. Not everyone is going to go to college. A test should be given at the start of high school. Then the kids should be put on a path to a trade career or college. The system right now doesn't give students any real world skills.

 

[MovingTarget]

How about we make high school past grade 9 non-mandatory and offer more vocational training in high school? How about we give schools more power to kick out continually-disruptive students so that those who do want to learn, can. How about equalizing funding between affluent and poor school districts within the same state without increasing total aggregate funds? All of those steps would go a LONG way to improving education.

 

[NoStateofMind]

Couple years back but speaks on this exact thing:

John Stossel on 20/20 - Stupid in America

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bx4pN-aiofw

 

[MovingTarget]

We have them.
They are called charter schools.
They give parents choice and provide "the system" with competition.
They are VERY successful.
They don't have unions.
"progressives" oppose them.

Charter schools can be effective, but the results aren't as clear-cut. As it stands, charter schools siphon away money, teachers, and motivated students from the regular public schools, making them even worse. Progressives don't categorically oppose charter schools, either. They can fill an important niche, but would not make for a blanket solution to the problems of the current systems by any means. The current teachers' unions do need reform, but supporting charter schools because "they do not have unions" categorically is kinda dumb. Regardless of what you may have heard, even the most motivated and effective teachers do need some sort of job protection through collective bargaining.

A charter school isn't a private school.

Education needs to be redefined. Not everyone is going to go to college. A test should be given at the start of high school. Then the kids should be put on a path to a trade career or college. The system right now doesn't give students any real world skills.

This I can agree with. I would caution however that kids shouldn't be completely pidgeonholed into one track or the other. They are still developing afterall. Allow them to switch tracks if they prove they are capable.

 

[NoStateofMind]

We have them.
They are called charter schools.
They give parents choice and provide "the system" with competition.
They are VERY successful.
They don't have unions.
"progressives" oppose them.

Agree :thumbsup:

 

[bfdd]

The bottom line is we arent getting a very good return on our public investment with our school system. But will anybody fix the problem? Not with parents who dont want to get involved, administrators\politicians scared to rock the boat for fear of not looking like they care about kids, and teacher unions who have everything on lock down. So we will continue to overspend for what we are getting.

The thing is most people don't even know the problem, which is they are PUBLIC schools. When you go to a private school you have to sign contracts etc stating you will behave and act a certain way. They have much stricter rules and guidelines. Public schools can't be like that because no one wants their tax dollars to punish their children. For public schools to work the public school has to have more control over the child while they are at school. We've moved away from that, no more corporal punishment in public schools, hell detention is illegal in some school districts.

 

[chucky2]

School reform will never happen:

1 - Parents: Parents on the average only pay lip service to actually putting forth the effort, both at home and directed school activities, in making sure their children learn properly. Whether this is making sure their kids have the right attitudes to take, and make, education seriously, enforcing the learning of the material, taking the time with the kids, whatever, they on the average do not do this. So right from the get go, on the average, the kids - and hence the primary solution to the problem - is F'd.

2 - Laws: Helpful groups such as the ACLU, POS laywers, judges, etc. work against school systems be working for and/or tolerating lawsuits. No Admin is going to tell a deadbeat parent and her deadbeat kid(s) to get the F out of his/her school, you are too motherF'ing dumb and ignorant to be allowed to F up the system for everyone else. Which is the only way many of these schools will ever be cleaned up/out. Until the legal system is officially ratified for Admin's at public schools to effectively be god as it relates to the student while on school property and at school functions, the Admin's hands are tied.

3 - Admins: Because of 2 above, Admin's consistently "stab teachers in the back" with respect to disruptive students and parents, thereby pushing teachers attitudes further towards the negative, thereby further pushing them towards their Unions and tougher bargaining (would you be OK with last years salary as your Admin just F'd you over for some POS student in front of POS student and POS parent? Nope, you'll be sticking it right back to him/her with a big FU2). On top of that, you've got Admin's who are essentially not teachers/weren't good teachers, don't know or care about teaching, but, want to be important and want the rediculous salaries that Admin's are earning. The only way to combat this is to hire teachers from the ranks to be Admin's. Only a teacher who's been teaching in the county for 10 years may be an Admin. Admin salaries should be chopped to median teacher salary at that school plus 20% (pick a number not insanely inflated).

4 - School: Exactly what Patranus said, "Education needs to be redefined. Not everyone is going to go to college. A test should be given at the start of high school. Then the kids should be put on a path to a trade career or college. The system right now doesn't give students any real world skills."


5 - Teachers: Work 8 months of the year. The 3 months they're off are the good months. Any professional paid the same rate the teachers are paid, or less, could put together a lesson plan that's largely reused year after year, and grade. = Teachers are not special. However, teachers do have to put up with dumbF kids all day, dumbF parents, and do frequently have to take work home each night to grade...so they're day isn't over when it's over. Until the above is straightened out, it's hard to rag on the teachers.

6 - Unions: Goodbye, your time is past. Reform 1 - 4 above, no unionization will be bargained with. Want to strike? That's nice, the replacement teachers will teach the kids how to do cost/benefit studies along with supply and demand. Example used will be high priced union labor outputting the same quality product lower priced labor puts out. I'm sure the kids at least will get a kick out of that while the F'ing boringly idiotic teacher he/she had last year trudges through the snow in 15 degree temps.

Since none of the above will ever happen, we're F'd. Leaving this for the "super smart" and Unions to figure out will get us just worse than we already are. The "super smart" and Unions have us where we are in the first place, depending on them to solve this in any postive (that's, positive for the students and taxpayers, not themselves) way is quite simply insanity.

Chuck

 

[DietDrThunder]

I can only give my opinion on what I observed when we had our kid in public school from K through 4th grade. The school was terrible and we had to pull her out and send her to a private school which is taking a HUGE chunk of our household budget away ($17K per year).

I do believe educators/administrators share part of the blame for the poor performance in public education, I'd say 35%. They fail to separate those that want to learn from those who need extra help to learn, or from those who want to goof off all day. My kid made straight A's, never had to bring a book home, and never had to do homework. The classes were taught to the the lowest level of ability child. That just doesn't cut the mustard.

The other 65% I blame on the parents. Many of the kids aren't disciplined, they don't care if they learn anything, and always want to disrupt the classroom. The parents of these kids basically want the schools to do everything for them, except for one major thing, discipline their kids. The school was in my opinion a daycare center.

 

[Exterous]

The bottom line is we arent getting a very good return on our public investment with our school system. But will anybody fix the problem? Not with parents who dont want to get involved, administrators\politicians scared to rock the boat for fear of not looking like they care about kids, and teacher unions who have everything on lock down. So we will continue to overspend for what we are getting.

Pretty much although you should expand 'unions' to include the Administrators Union and the support staff union. Don't forget the school board is elected so they pander to the parents who think their child is perfect and can do no wrong and should never have their feelings hurt

Yes. Get rid of the unions & evaluate all teachers on a yearly basis.

That by itself is not even going to come close to helping

The thing is most people don't even know the problem, which is they are PUBLIC schools. When you go to a private school you have to sign contracts etc stating you will behave and act a certain way. They have much stricter rules and guidelines. Public schools can't be like that because no one wants their tax dollars to punish their children. For public schools to work the public school has to have more control over the child while they are at school. We've moved away from that, no more corporal punishment in public schools, hell detention is illegal in some school districts.

My wife spends an incredible amount of time baby sitting students instead of teaching her High School classes. She has to constantly confiscate cell phones, tell kids to stop talking while she is talking, writing referrals for disobediance (telling her to 'fvck off' when she tells a kid to be quiet). Most of the parents could care less and don't do anything about their child's behavior

There is more than one issue here and they all need to be addressed to fix the system. Throwing more money at it alone won't help. Getting rid of the teachers union alone won't help.

Personally I think the biggest difference that can be made is for parents to take a more active role in their child's education.

 

[CrackRabbit]

One more thing to add to Chucky's list there.
7. Reduce the burden that state sponsored standardized testing puts on teachers.
Having to teach kids to pass the standardized tests instead of just teaching them is another huge problem within the education system.
Although I am now years removed from high school, I can still remember the ridiculous amounts of time spent preparing and teaching specifically for the standardized test instead of general teaching that would give us the knowledge to pass the tests without issue.

 

[PokerGuy]

The school system is like any government entity. It continues to get bigger and bigger and bigger, costs more and more, and delivers less and less. That won't change, because as soon as anyone tries to reform anything, the entrenched unions and other idiots will immediately cry foul and make it look like any attempt at reform is an attack on education itself.

 

[yllus]

I think a lot of things would get solved by real accountability entering the picture.

That accountability has to be fairly divided: If we're going to scrap teacher's unions and hold individual teachers accountable for their work, we also need to grant those teachers the power to permanently dismiss a student from their class if they're impossible to work with.

I think that a lot of problems would also get solved by having an enlarged counseling department in each school with expanded responsibilities. How about if counselors met with each student in the schools once a month and provided the student the opportunity to talk over any recent issues and what their 5-year plan for the future looked like at that time? The student would spend some time coming up with what the steps involved in the plan looked like for the next meeting. With that plan well realized, the student could sign off on it and symbolically take the ownership of it, hopefully also realizing it's worth taking seriously.

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

At the same time, it's probably hard to be a teacher that gives a shit when parents don't give a shit. Your schools drop out rate is all the proof I need.

Kids no longer respect anyone. I am 100% for allowing students to be beat by teachers when they act out of line. I am also for a law that says mandatory abortions for anyone under 25 at any stage of fetus development.

There, my hat is in the political ring. And I am 100% right. I don't give two craps about ethics. This is what is needed in this country.

The above will not drive costs up. If anything, the mandatory abortion thing will probably reduce costs!

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

Oh, and part of hte problem these days is having two parents working. One parent should be a full time home maker that takes care of the kids, goes to PTO meetings, etc.

This is in part an unintended consequence of women's lib.

 

[digiram]

Oh, and part of hte problem these days is having two parents working. One parent should be a full time home maker that takes care of the kids, goes to PTO meetings, etc.

This is in part an unintended consequence of women's lib.

Hate to say this, but I some what agree. Not enough attention and guidance is given to young children these days.

I grew up in a household where my mom was a stay at home mom. Myself and all my siblings are somewhat doing well in life.

My wife is currently a stay at home mom, and we monitor our children carefully. We read to them, pay attention to their school work, etc.

Although it's early, I feel like my children are quite advanced.

 

[DaveSimmons]

As several said above, we need to fix the parents. With enough parents doing their job, even the current system would get much better results.

It's too bad that having children that you're completely unprepared to raise is seen as a sacred right.

It's also too bad that enforced birth control for those on welfare is seen as eugenics and racism by the far left, and interfering with God's will by the far right. If you're on welfare, you should be forced to have a removable contraceptive implant until you're willing to contribute to society.

 

[BoberFett]

Schools won't be fixed because Americans on the whole don't care. Americans are spoiled rotten children who believe the world owes them a cushy living, and only the coming financial collapse (remember that one we postponed through deficit spending?) will have a chance at changing anything. Even then, I suspect that for a long time most people will simply blame others rather than look in a mirror and realize that they are the problem.

 

[piasabird]

If you had to pay to send your child to school maybe it would cost less. In some cities where it costs $400.000 for a house I could see building schools in the suburbs and shipping them out of the city to go to school.