Discussion Can someone explain what is a god given right?

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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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There’s no such thing as god given or inherent rights. Usually the ones listed are like the right to life and such. Try informing the bear that’s about to eat you of your inherent right to life and see how it goes.

I think this is a good thing to keep in mind though. No right is inherent or given, they all need to be protected and fought for.
 
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[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
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There’s no such thing as god given or inherent rights. Usually the ones listed are like the right to life and such. Try informing the bear that’s about to eat you of your inherent right to life and see how it goes.

I think this is a good thing to keep in mind though. No right is inherent or given, they all need to be protected and fought for.
Which is why the 2A is kind of paramount in the protection of all other rights. Society is still pear-shaped, however. Inquiring minds would love to know if the alternative would be better.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
69,711
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Hello shadow docket purgatory, where your case is denied without even needing a reason.

This Supreme Court of course has zero interest in freedom of religion, but a strong interest in imposing Christian religion on everyone. Similarly if it had been Buddhists or Muslims bringing this exact same case, it would never have been heard.
Within the people who call themselves Christians there are the God realized and deranged fanatics. The Conservatives on the court are animated by a conservative brand of Christianity that has been inculcated by a fear of evil from which redemption can only be had by the practice of their brand of it. Their aim, then, is to save America from sin by indoctrination of children to conform with their egotistical notions they know what salvation is. They have, in fact, no idea. They are unfit to judge in a secular state because of religious bias.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
69,711
5,159
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There’s no such thing as god given or inherent rights. Usually the ones listed are like the right to life and such. Try informing the bear that’s about to eat you of your inherent right to life and see how it goes.

I think this is a good thing to keep in mind though. No right is inherent or given, they all need to be protected and fought for.
On what basis would you base such a need. Why use the term ‘rights’ if there isn’t something within that makes it feel right? Is there such a something and if so what is it? If not why would you care to defend it?

And, of course, you would only ask a bear about your right to life if you were mad. The inherent part of one’s right to life would express itself in fight or flight. In bear country people interested in their right to life make a lot of noise moving around and carry a large caliber hand gun.
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
16,217
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I do not believe in god-given rights. That's just make believe , and leaves out people who don't believe in certain gods. There are human rights that we can feel are must-haves. And then there are human rights where people get together and create systems and governments within which to live, a contract between humans. Where the hell does God get involved in all this? It's inane
 
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[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
11,408
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I do not believe in god-given rights. That's just make believe , and leaves out people who don't believe in certain gods. There are human rights that we can feel are must-haves. And then there are human rights where people get together and create systems and governments within which to live, a contract between humans. Where the hell does God get involved in all this? It's inane
If you don't involve God, you have to accept that morality is subjective, and that's a hill too tall for some to climb.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
11,408
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I disagree. As we see with people who believe in God, their morality is often the most subjective in reality.
Oh sure, but without religion there's no codified morality. Not all religious people are moral, but to state there's an innate morality requires religion.

Christianity screwed up by giving sinners an out through forgiveness. Probably also caused it to proliferate however.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
11,300
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Oh sure, but without religion there's no codified morality. Not all religious people are moral, but to state there's an innate morality requires religion.

Christianity screwed up by giving sinners an out through forgiveness. Probably also caused it to proliferate however.

"God" really doesn't solve the problem, though. Then it just becomes an arbitrary decision as to what "Rights" any given "God" says we have.

Maybe it is possible to derive some notion of "rights" philosophically? Via a rational argument that people can be persuaded by? Beyond my intellectual grade, though.

Mostly I think, from what I see, they are just a consequence of power - things are declared to be "a right" if doing so suits the interests of those who happen to have power. If it's inconvenient for the powerful then it isn't a fundamental 'right'.
 
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MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
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"God" really doesn't solve the problem, though. Then it just becomes an arbitrary decision as to what "Rights" any given "God" says we have.

Maybe it is possible to derive some notion of "rights" philosophically? Via a rational argument that people can be persuaded by? Beyond my intellectual grade, though.

Mostly I think, from what I see, they are just a consequence of power - things are declared to be "a right" if doing so suits the interests of those who happen to have power. If it's inconvenient for the powerful then it isn't a fundamental 'right'.
Agreed. Humans created Gods - I think human thinkers and philosophy is the right answer of how we create morals. We can evolve to a point where we can call certain things immoral, like slavery. Slavery happened here when most people were God fearing. Having a God is an excuse and probably makes morality worse in reality.

And who is this God? Didn't he like murder the whole planet except one dude, his wife and a pair of each animal and flooded everyone away? That's a lot of indiscriminate murder. He makes Hitler seem like a pissant. But yet we think murder is immoral.

Fuck God
 
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pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
11,300
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Funny that over here the Right, in the shape of Johnson's Tories, are trying to remove "human rights" legislation, because it gives too much power to judges (to do things like overturn the 'send asylum seekers to Rwanda' policies), while over there the judges are interpreting 'rights' to further the interests and power of the Right.


Looking at the US is why I think, even though the Conservatives _hate_ EU 'human rights' legislation, and the form of it that's been incorporated into UK law, and liberals really like that stuff, it is nevertheless a mistake to put too much faith in bills of "rights" and to give too much power to judges to overide politicians and the electorate.

Ultimately you can't rely on elite judges to do the right thing - they are just as much likely to be subject to self-interest and biased reasoning as the average voter. Maybe even more so.
 
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[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
11,408
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"God" really doesn't solve the problem, though. Then it just becomes an arbitrary decision as to what "Rights" any given "God" says we have.

Maybe it is possible to derive some notion of "rights" philosophically? Via a rational argument that people can be persuaded by? Beyond my intellectual grade, though.

Mostly I think, from what I see, they are just a consequence of power - things are declared to be "a right" if doing so suits the interests of those who happen to have power. If it's inconvenient for the powerful then it isn't a fundamental 'right'.
That's basically accurate, the power base for a very long time was rooted in religion (still is depending on your location and definition) and so it generally creates the morality of the tribe. You could potentially create an agnostic moral code simply based in civilization's needs, and what's been scientifically proven to work best, but you'd be facing 2000+ years of momentum from religious types, even if they don't follow it.

The whole mess is pretty arbitrary but so is civilization, so...
 
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Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
31,708
5,698
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I can’t share your frustration because I know that inalienable rights are truly inalienable. They are not subjective and not a matter of faith or force of law. The knowledge of their existence can’t be given without grace nor kept from those sincere in their seeking. The price of entry is everything you believe. Believing you know and knowing you know are two different things but the difference is also only know to those who know it.
Russians living in remote villages have the inalienable right to be conscripted and thrown into the frontlines with little to no training, equipment, or support.
Their only right is to be used and discarded like a bag of meat.

And that's TODAY.

As far as... what people know of human rights. This "knowledge of their existence" is part of our institutional history. When we fall, so to does that knowledge. In fact, we would have fallen due to already loosing knowledge of our common purpose, for the preservation of our Union and our rights. There is nothing inalienable about them, and many nations across the planet truly and completely enslave their people through modern tyranny. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't count on us "saving" them anytime soon. Not ever, probably.

So what then, is the fate of these god given rights?
In 200 years, they might not even appear in a history book.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
34,856
6,533
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Conservatives call 2A a “ god given right”. Saw a CNN interview. I just wish the host thought of asking that
I'll say it right here, 2A IS NOT A GOD GIVEN RIGHT. Fact is it is unrighteous.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
11,408
8,783
146
One might defend oneself in myriad ways, a great many of which would have nothing to do with deadly weapons. I envision a world in which guns are unnecessary and therefore irrelevant.
Right, but if you agree that a person has a right to defend themselves, one would presume that you'd agree that a person has a right to defend themselves with the same weapons they would be attacked with. After all, in the era of melee weaponry, not having a weapon placed you in a virtually impossible situation, and that was exploited by people in power for centuries. The principal of the 2A was to permit individuals to have a chance to defend themselves regardless of the aggressor, personal or governmental. 'God made man, Colt made them equal' as it were.

Mass shootings were never a part of the 2A, though it's been more accessible due to it. Whether the alternative is better or not, I'm not in a position to say.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
34,856
6,533
126
Mass shootings were never a part of the 2A, though it's been more accessible due to it. Whether the alternative is better or not, I'm not in a position to say.
There are said to be 11 million AR-15 style mass murder capable weapons in the USA. I am in favor of making possession of one of these a serious crime. The dust would not settle in a week, but in time it would. Might take a long long time, but it would settle and we would be much better off. Do we not want to be much better off? Of course we do. ;)
 

Pens1566

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 2005
9,210
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Fact: Jesus lobbied against the NFA and the assault weapons ban. He wanted those things in the temple.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
69,711
5,159
126
There are said to be 11 million AR-15 style mass murder capable weapons in the USA. I am in favor of making possession of one of these a serious crime. The dust would not settle in a week, but in time it would. Might take a long long time, but it would settle and we would be much better off. Do we not want to be much better off? Of course we do. ;)
I think that many people who own guns attach to that ownership a sense of security, a sense that if confronted with the indifference of others to ones life liberty and or possessions, one would have a chance to defend oneself. With that regard there are a number of things about the AR platform that are appealing in that regard. And while one may have all of the optimism inherent in your vision of an AR or even a gun free world, think for a moment about what would happen if you were able to impose your opinion by force. You are rather naive in my opinion, self deluding if you will, to speak of the consequences of enforcing that ban as issues involving dust. I think you grossly underestimate the consequences of telling people that have to hand over to the authorities their rights of self defense, the tools with which they have spent perhaps even very considerable effort to acquire. I believe the answer has been given quite accurately, you will get them when you pry them from their cold dead hands.

You airy fairy liberals do not understand the significantly larger range of moral concerns that animate conservative thinking, the right to self defense probably being right at the top. You may stupidly believe, if I may say so, that the 2nd amendment isn't God given, well if it isn't, you fool, it has been given by billions of years if organic life adapting to survive. Only fools try to criminalize human nature.

Society wants to pass the buck as to why our children are being killed in schools. They will do nothing as individuals to take responsibility for curing their own inner rage. You will not see that all of your hatred of the evil done by guns is a projection of all the evil you have suffered at the hands of others who out of their own repressed hatred psychically murdered you as a child. That self ignorance is the enemy, not guns. There would be rare accidental deaths from guns if Americans were psychologically healthy.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
31,557
20,211
136
Still trying to figure out how a so called "god given", inherent or natural right was not afforded to black people.

Didn't that suggest rights are just what the majority decided?
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
11,300
6,146
136
Still trying to figure out how a so called "god given", inherent or natural right was not afforded to black people.

Didn't that suggest rights are just what the majority decided?

Well, obviously. Though maybe not 'the majority', necessarily, so much as 'the group with the most power' - which is not always the same thing. I suspect different societies with different distributions of power are likely to come up with different ideas of what constitutes "rights". And in many cases will then claim they are "God given".
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
34,856
6,533
126
I think that many people who own guns attach to that ownership a sense of security, a sense that if confronted with the indifference of others to ones life liberty and or possessions, one would have a chance to defend oneself. With that regard there are a number of things about the AR platform that are appealing in that regard. And while one may have all of the optimism inherent in your vision of an AR or even a gun free world, think for a moment about what would happen if you were able to impose your opinion by force. You are rather naive in my opinion, self deluding if you will, to speak of the consequences of enforcing that ban as issues involving dust. I think you grossly underestimate the consequences of telling people that have to hand over to the authorities their rights of self defense, the tools with which they have spent perhaps even very considerable effort to acquire. I believe the answer has been given quite accurately, you will get them when you pry them from their cold dead hands.

You airy fairy liberals do not understand the significantly larger range of moral concerns that animate conservative thinking, the right to self defense probably being right at the top. You may stupidly believe, if I may say so, that the 2nd amendment isn't God given, well if it isn't, you fool, it has been given by billions of years if organic life adapting to survive. Only fools try to criminalize human nature.

Society wants to pass the buck as to why our children are being killed in schools. They will do nothing as individuals to take responsibility for curing their own inner rage. You will not see that all of your hatred of the evil done by guns is a projection of all the evil you have suffered at the hands of others who out of their own repressed hatred psychically murdered you as a child. That self ignorance is the enemy, not guns. There would be rare accidental deaths from guns if Americans were psychologically healthy.
Unless you are just putting me on, you prove here that you are a conservative at heart. I haven't the time ATM to deconstruct the quoted material and dissect your cursed soul, you should really look inward for that. Ta ta for now.
 

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