So if I drive a Ford Valdez (Expedition) I'm just as duplicitous in America's thirst for oil as driving a car with 3x the mpg?! My home is heated with gas . . . if it was possible in my area to purchase GREEN energy I would do so. The costs of installing solar panels doesn't make sense b/c we're moving in two years . . . but my next home will at least be passive solar with heated floors.
There are many products which are petrochemical-based. All the more reason not to waste it in cars/trucks. I believe future generations may discover fantastic new ways to use petroleum . . . all the more reason to use less of it today. But the options aren't abundant. The Insight only has two seats. The new Civic is too small. The Prius is damn ugly and small. I've got my eye on an Acura DN-X. In the meantime, I drive a fuel efficient LEV and avoid unnecessary trips.
All future monitors will be LCD . . . although my current CRT is EnergyStar compliant. Our washer, dryer, and refrigerator were amongst the best in class for energy efficiency. Alas we are not collecting our rainwater or composting but those are definite goals for the summer. Regardless, US foreign policy should not be based on the slovenly, wasteful nature of the typical US consumer. It would be nice if the whole world would share . . . but what share of the world's resources do American consumers deserve?
There are many products which are petrochemical-based. All the more reason not to waste it in cars/trucks. I believe future generations may discover fantastic new ways to use petroleum . . . all the more reason to use less of it today. But the options aren't abundant. The Insight only has two seats. The new Civic is too small. The Prius is damn ugly and small. I've got my eye on an Acura DN-X. In the meantime, I drive a fuel efficient LEV and avoid unnecessary trips.
All future monitors will be LCD . . . although my current CRT is EnergyStar compliant. Our washer, dryer, and refrigerator were amongst the best in class for energy efficiency. Alas we are not collecting our rainwater or composting but those are definite goals for the summer. Regardless, US foreign policy should not be based on the slovenly, wasteful nature of the typical US consumer. It would be nice if the whole world would share . . . but what share of the world's resources do American consumers deserve?
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Hehe, we use around 50% resources and have 5% population. Resources are finite in thier economically feasable for production form. IE bauxite to aluminum is much cheaper than gathering the scrap and recycleing it and seperating the various alloys to pure production capable aluminum again. Oil is'nt even considered for recyling. So it's down to mining and drilling and production of these finite resourses.
Sure we *could* share
Originally posted by: Carbonyl
Hehe, we use around 50% resources and have 5% population. Resources are finite in thier economically feasable for production form. IE bauxite to aluminum is much cheaper than gathering the scrap and recycleing it and seperating the various alloys to pure production capable aluminum again. Oil is'nt even considered for recyling. So it's down to mining and drilling and production of these finite resourses.
Sure we *could* share, but 99% of us are unwilling to live as they do in China, india or Shi Lanka in order to make this guesture of shared resourses. could you regress? No you still drive that nice car, buy those mexican and Chinese electronics/home appliances (don't kid yourself about sony being japanese made, it's all outsourced to third world today but the very high-end) We can buy it, they can't. We perserve our buying power and monopoly on the worlds resourses with careful pro-western political leadership in those countries we got the resourses from. Can you imagine how much trouble China would be in if we one day cut all imports to ZERO. All hell would break loose politically over there, so they are our bitch, and thier populations support our way of life while they live in sqauler. Our policy on most counties is don't ask, don't tell about human rights, slavery, etc send me the money and we'll send the goods. Same goes for any western democracy however we are about 27 more aircraft carriers more influentual. The peaceniks are hypocrites.
Wow, you're evil. That's the only word I can think of to describe you.
Some people come for a better way of life . . . while others come for that AND to send something back home to improve the rest of the families way of life.
Do I believe that meat consumption is a waste and an unsustainable means for the world to subsist? YES
Do I still eat meat? YES
Does that make me a hypocrite? Well . . . yeah. But at least I'm working on it. I love lentils and hummus, while consuming primarily chicken instead of beef and pork.
EVERYBODY can do more . . . but just b/c you don't want to do anything is that grounds for criticizing me for not doing enough?!
WMD in Iraq justifies the invasion. Allowing Iraqis to rule themselves is reasonable justification. Developing a better foothold for America to execute dominion over Middle Eastern oil reserves is despicable. We can't drill the FL coast b/c it was an election year but CA, NC, and ANWAR are all in play . . . ridiculous!
Do I believe that meat consumption is a waste and an unsustainable means for the world to subsist? YES
Do I still eat meat? YES
Does that make me a hypocrite? Well . . . yeah. But at least I'm working on it. I love lentils and hummus, while consuming primarily chicken instead of beef and pork.
EVERYBODY can do more . . . but just b/c you don't want to do anything is that grounds for criticizing me for not doing enough?!
WMD in Iraq justifies the invasion. Allowing Iraqis to rule themselves is reasonable justification. Developing a better foothold for America to execute dominion over Middle Eastern oil reserves is despicable. We can't drill the FL coast b/c it was an election year but CA, NC, and ANWAR are all in play . . . ridiculous!
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Why it is despicable? Sounds like a great deal to me for everyone involved. We get a guaranteed supply which gives us a steady price and more stable economy. And bali can drive his sporty little import for cheap. Iraq, who would sell anyway to the highest bidder and one man got to decide the proceeds fate, instead gets a more eqalitarian distribution of the proceeds and a freer country for it's citizens. Isreal no longer has to worry about the next scud flying out of iraq. And the rest of the middle east will take note totaliarian terrorist regimes will not be tolerated and could only lead to futher democratization of the ME.
Well here's my favorite little anecdote which happens to also be 100% true.
Guy I used to work with, bought-in somewhat to many conspiracy theories; CIA running drugs in SE Asia during Vietnam, CIA introduced crack to the inner cities to 'keep da black man down', HIV was a 'Tuskegee' type military experiment gone-wrong, and others. If it cast the United States as the corrupt villian, it had merit.
He drives this full-size GMC van with a 350, gets about 14 miles per gallon. So as long as gas was $1.30 something per gallon, he was critical of the US role in the Middle East. "Why are we over there, sticking our nose in these people's business? We should stay out of their affairs and stop doing all these evil things to get cheap oil." Yadda yadda, and so on...
Then when gas prices briefly shot up to over $3.00 per gallon during 1999 or 2000 (I forget which now), he was like "Jesus Christ its costing me over $40 per week just to get to work and back. We should go over there and bomb those towel heads to hell and take their oil those dirty bastards."
Most of the people lamenting US policy in the middle east and fancying themselves as moralists against 'war for oil' would be singing a far different tune if they found themselves in 1973-1974 all over again, only allowed to buy gasoline on alternate days, forced to wait in lines several blocks long to pay as much as $6 a gallon, companies forced to ration or even shut down production because they couldn't get fuel through the fed's price-control system, far-reaching economic injury causing massive lay-offs and record unemployment.
Be careful what you wish for Oh Morally Superior Ones, you just might get it.
Guy I used to work with, bought-in somewhat to many conspiracy theories; CIA running drugs in SE Asia during Vietnam, CIA introduced crack to the inner cities to 'keep da black man down', HIV was a 'Tuskegee' type military experiment gone-wrong, and others. If it cast the United States as the corrupt villian, it had merit.
He drives this full-size GMC van with a 350, gets about 14 miles per gallon. So as long as gas was $1.30 something per gallon, he was critical of the US role in the Middle East. "Why are we over there, sticking our nose in these people's business? We should stay out of their affairs and stop doing all these evil things to get cheap oil." Yadda yadda, and so on...
Then when gas prices briefly shot up to over $3.00 per gallon during 1999 or 2000 (I forget which now), he was like "Jesus Christ its costing me over $40 per week just to get to work and back. We should go over there and bomb those towel heads to hell and take their oil those dirty bastards."
Most of the people lamenting US policy in the middle east and fancying themselves as moralists against 'war for oil' would be singing a far different tune if they found themselves in 1973-1974 all over again, only allowed to buy gasoline on alternate days, forced to wait in lines several blocks long to pay as much as $6 a gallon, companies forced to ration or even shut down production because they couldn't get fuel through the fed's price-control system, far-reaching economic injury causing massive lay-offs and record unemployment.
Be careful what you wish for Oh Morally Superior Ones, you just might get it.
Why would you call him evil? All he did was lay the backdrop for third world labor conditions that we all know and turn a blind eye against.
Captalism is all about outpacing others to make a better life for yourself. At the worst, you can still make ends meet and live above the poverty line if you are commited to working hard. The same can't be said in all countries. Anyway, that's besides the main point here....
Are you seriously subscribed to this belief? Are we piping in safe drinking water while pumping oil down our lines to Kuwait?
Sure, we're going to ask for some price breaks in our oil to conver some of our war costs, but we're not smuggling the stuff out. Our companies are there working on reconstructing broken and shut off lines at the moment. Yeah, they might hire some of our companies to stay a little longer since we're already conveniently there, but I doubt scamming them would serve as the good ice breaker, don't you think?
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LOL exactly. I tried Morally superior but at least I did'nt try and make everyone else tow the same line. I did it to myself and could'nt stand the torture. I have 6 electric city cars sun rotting in my yard I bought real cheap at an auction. I tried to assemble 2 working ones from them. After $4500 in batteries and a $500 motor rewind and mucho hard weekend labor I got two working vechiles. Then I relized ok fine, now I can go 50 miles at 45 mph before recharging in an unsafe 1800 lb vechile. But the coal used to fire the powerplant used to charge the car comes from a Brazilian Rainforrest they chopped to get the coal. The cadium in the batteries upset and displaced some tribesmen in New Genia. ETC ETC ETC Seems You can't win if you want modern convience. So I switched back to (well i never actaully left it) to internal combustion oil feed cars/trucks.
At least we have broken up a monopoly, OPEC, which no one should like, got rid of a mannace to society and oil will go for more what it's worth than what they can extract from us. And I think even the most ardent antiwar protestors like paying a cheaper price at the pump even if they don't agree with all the other positives.
Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce
Originally posted by: Carbonyl
Hehe, we use around 50% resources and have 5% population. Resources are finite in thier economically feasable for production form. IE bauxite to aluminum is much cheaper than gathering the scrap and recycleing it and seperating the various alloys to pure production capable aluminum again. Oil is'nt even considered for recyling. So it's down to mining and drilling and production of these finite resourses.
Sure we *could* share, but 99% of us are unwilling to live as they do in China, india or Shi Lanka in order to make this guesture of shared resourses. could you regress? No you still drive that nice car, buy those mexican and Chinese electronics/home appliances (don't kid yourself about sony being japanese made, it's all outsourced to third world today but the very high-end) We can buy it, they can't. We perserve our buying power and monopoly on the worlds resourses with careful pro-western political leadership in those countries we got the resourses from. Can you imagine how much trouble China would be in if we one day cut all imports to ZERO. All hell would break loose politically over there, so they are our bitch, and thier populations support our way of life while they live in sqauler. Our policy on most counties is don't ask, don't tell about human rights, slavery, etc send me the money and we'll send the goods. Same goes for any western democracy however we are about 27 more aircraft carriers more influentual. The peaceniks are hypocrites.
Wow, you're evil. That's the only word I can think of to describe you.
Capitalism as a religion in action.
And I hate to say it, but he does have a point.
Should the Russian economic interest be the first and foremost if they invaded Alaska and tried to seize control of the oil fields?
If you want to make this for a war for oil than please answer these questions.
What country in the world would not have an economic collapse if the price of oil tripled?
What would the world economy be if the price of oil tripled?
How many people worldwide would die if the world economy went into a depression that rivaled that of the thirties?
What country in the world would not have an economic collapse if the price of oil tripled?
What would the world economy be if the price of oil tripled?
How many people worldwide would die if the world economy went into a depression that rivaled that of the thirties?
I am probably far less knowledged than you are in this, but I trust that you will not simply dismiss me calling me a "moron" or an "idiot" etc without explaining anything.
Where did you get the figure that the price of oil will triple?
How much of Iraqi oil should the Americans control to prevent such catastrophe?
I personally am not convinced that the war was for oil, although I do recognize that it is a possibility. I am definitely against American monopoly of Iraqi oil. My post was about morality on the issue, which I took was the topic of this thread.
I used an arbitary figure of triple.
Now I won't call you a moron. Just answer the questions as best as you can. Then add some of your own.
What would the consequeces be to the WORLD if the price of oil greatly increased?
Now I won't call you a moron. Just answer the questions as best as you can. Then add some of your own.
What would the consequeces be to the WORLD if the price of oil greatly increased?
Russia and the Arab world are now fighting sanctions being lifted out of concerns of the price of their own oil exports once Iraq's hits the market, these are countries that called for their end when Sadam was still in power and not complying, the only diference is THIS time the oil would flow freely instead of still being restricted. They would argue for humanitarian aid, but are willing to block such aid if it will cost them a buck or two per gallon.
Prices are down in my area, they should decrease even more as Iraqi oil hits the market, they had been held at 4% production under sanctions, as theirs increases I expect to see other Arab countries slow their production to offset their losses and try to keep the price high and stable. Right now anyone in the oil business is making LESS money of their product. If Bush and his boys wanted to cah in they would have let the oil wells go up instead of rushing in to secure them, then the price would have gone through the roof as the market reacted to the worlds 2nd largest oils reserves burning uncontrollably.
Prices are down in my area, they should decrease even more as Iraqi oil hits the market, they had been held at 4% production under sanctions, as theirs increases I expect to see other Arab countries slow their production to offset their losses and try to keep the price high and stable. Right now anyone in the oil business is making LESS money of their product. If Bush and his boys wanted to cah in they would have let the oil wells go up instead of rushing in to secure them, then the price would have gone through the roof as the market reacted to the worlds 2nd largest oils reserves burning uncontrollably.
I can't answer those questions because I don't know enough and don't understand the basis for your questions.
Americans so far did not control oil in Iraq and the world functioned pretty much ok, from what I understand. Why would the oil price suddenly shoot up (or "triple" as you arbitrarily suggested). And oil price where? You mean in North America?
Perhaps we are talking about completely different situations here. I fail to see how American control of Iraqi oil would benefit the world. It'll certainly lower gas prices around my town, but I'm not sure how that'll benefit the world.
This is not to suggest that Americans shouldn't gain any control of Iraqi oil or that I endorse any other power to take control of them. I just don't understand your argument of oil prices shooting up all of a sudden, and even if it does, will it really have the consequences of the scale you describe?
So are you saying that for the hypothetical possibilities above, we have the right to invade a sovreign nation?
The US will not control iraqi oil though. The effect of their full reserves available for production and export to ANYWHERE is what is going to benefit the rest of the world, other than the other nations who export alot of oil.
OPEC will meet thursday, expect production to be dropped to compensate for the falling prices.
OPEC will meet thursday, expect production to be dropped to compensate for the falling prices.
joohang
Just give a best guess based on what knowledge you have of world econmics. How many economies would survive a sudden upwards rise in price of oil?
How does oil affect the price of every good on the market in many of the world's countries economies? You have seen the effects of the economic slowdown that started in 1999 on the US. It's actually fairly minor in the context of history. Do a little research on the depression of the 30's. Project what those effects would have not just on the economy but worldwide stability. Now take your best guess, would worldwide economic depression lead to more wars and more deaths from starvation?
Had Saddam ever proposed a oil embargo as a weapon against the US? Yes or no? Would the complete collaspe of the US economy lead to a worldwide depression? Hint, look at trade figures for an answer.
Just give a best guess based on what knowledge you have of world econmics. How many economies would survive a sudden upwards rise in price of oil?
How does oil affect the price of every good on the market in many of the world's countries economies? You have seen the effects of the economic slowdown that started in 1999 on the US. It's actually fairly minor in the context of history. Do a little research on the depression of the 30's. Project what those effects would have not just on the economy but worldwide stability. Now take your best guess, would worldwide economic depression lead to more wars and more deaths from starvation?
Had Saddam ever proposed a oil embargo as a weapon against the US? Yes or no? Would the complete collaspe of the US economy lead to a worldwide depression? Hint, look at trade figures for an answer.
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