Can someone explain the gaza situation to me?

[Aimster]

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: Aimster
Israel is part of the M.E.

I think people somehow like to exclude Israel from part of that culture.

Well.. I have news for you.... you cannot.

What are you trying to say?
Sure, there are some similiarities, but there are major, major differences as well.

Major differences such as what?

I can point out major differences in plenty of nations in the M.E.

Israel is part of the M.E. There is nothing great about Israel that makes it so much different from all the other nations in the M.E.

One poster was trying to isolate Israel from the M.E by trying to label the nations around it as women oppressors. Which is totally FALSE.

 

[Lemon law]

That Israel is part of the mid-east is a no brainer---the problem occurs when Israel angers every single one of its neighbors---initially the unwelcome mat could be attributed to racial prejudices---but after nearly sixty years of Israel doing nothing to demonstrate they are a positive addition to the neighborhood---the hatreds have grown.

 

[ForumMaster]

Originally posted by: Aimster
Hamas is a group that doesn't want to make peace with Israel. It wants to kill all of Israel and their citizens.

Fatah is an extremists group that is willing to make peace with Israel. It realizes to do that, it must stop attacks. It has tried.

Hamas doesn't care and continues to attack Israel regardless if there is a peace movement or not.

Right now they are fighting for power. Hamas wants an Islamic State that will move into Israel and dominate it.
Fatah was working on peace with Abbas.

very good summary. now a while ago, we tried to make a ceasefire with the Palestinians. we kept it but they attacked us anyway. we waited a two more days before taking action. back then we couldn't exactly know who fired the rockets.

but now, the Hamas has made a terrible mistake. First, it is widely known that the Hamas takes orders directly from Iran. this strengthens Bush's position against Iraq.

Second, Hamas is not ready to takeover the Gaza strip. They didn't do it well in the west bank and somehow, i doubt they will do any better this time.

Third and most important, they have now changed from being a terrorist organization that hides behind the innocent civilians, and into a government. This legitimizes our military campaigns as we know can point and show that the hamas are responsible for the continuing attacks.

Now, many Palestinians are fleeing from the Gaza strip. they demand we let them into Israel. Thing is, we each consider the other the enemy. And where are we supposed to put them? (to put it bluntly) Do we create yet another refugee camp with poor conditions?

Currently, the Israeli government has it's own problems and isn't taking any action that I'm aware of. The best thing to do now is to sit and wait.

We do need to prepare for an attack by the Hamas. And now, it can be legitimately called war. However, the Israeli public won't support the government into another war, only self-defense.

I admit that this will be an interesting set of events to watch. let's pray no more people get hurt.

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: Aimster
Hamas is a group that doesn't want to make peace with Israel. It wants to kill all of Israel and their citizens.

Fatah is an extremists group that is willing to make peace with Israel. It realizes to do that, it must stop attacks. It has tried.

Hamas doesn't care and continues to attack Israel regardless if there is a peace movement or not.

Right now they are fighting for power. Hamas wants an Islamic State that will move into Israel and dominate it.
Fatah was working on peace with Abbas.

Wow that was such a naive explanation of things Aimster....

 

[Lemon law]

Examine the real Aimster delusion which is contained here---Fatah is an extremists group that is willing to make peace with Israel. It realizes to do that, it must stop attacks. It has tried.

A better explanation is that Fatah WAS an extremist group that became less extreme when it thought it could get a Palestinian State by recognizing Israel. And was willing to reduce the attacks on Israel. And instead Fatah found that Israel got what it wanted in reduced attacks but Israel offered nothing in return to improve the lot of the Palestinian people. But at least Fatah leaders could enrich themselves by taking their cut of international funds to help administer the refugee camps. And after a decade of providing no progress, the Palestinian people have fired Fatah and voted in Hamas. And Hamas will use carrots and STICKS to improve the lot of the Palestinian people because the last decade has proved carrots alone don't work with Israel.

And now Hamas equals what Fatah used to be. Carrots and sticks didn't work before for Fatah and probably won't work now---but at least its more honest than a corrupt Fatah bribed into irrelevance. And if Israel does not like the return of sticks, it needs to learn that it needs to offer the Palestinian people something to stop the sticks. All Fatah has now proved is that the Israelis like to have their cake and eat it too. And if Israel wants to deal with Fatah in Gaza--they are too late---Fatah is officially extinct in Gaza---but the West Bank subspecies of Fatah is still alive in that region---but its also has one leg in the grave----and if Israel wants to revive Fatah fortunes in the West Bank---the only way to revive Fatah there is to offer something of value Fatah can deliver to the Palestinian people---which didn't happen a decade ago---and I see no evidence Israel will get real now---so you can figure Fatah in the West Bank will gradually fade away as a spent and now totally corrupt political movement.

But for awhile both Israel and the US will have a dual Palestinian policy fiction--one for Gaza and the other for the West Bank. And its probable that long after the Fatah party also becomes extinct on the West Bank, both Israel and the US will still pretend to deal with Fatah.----and continue to offer Fatah nothing.---and at the same time hold up Fatah as a shining example of progress in solving the Palestinians problem.

While everyone else in the world laughs at the sheer audacity of that kind of revisionist history.

 

[0roo0roo]

Originally posted by: GrGr
Hamas is the group that won the democratic election. Fatah, Arafat's old group, lost the election. Israel and the US did not like this so they imposed economic sanctions on Palestine. Israel started abducting Hamas ministers and throw them in jail while supporting the lame duck Fatah President Abbas as a quisling they could grease. Fatah sold out to Israel. The US started to give money and arms to Fatah because they best serve Israel's interests thus starting a civil war. Hamas, the winners of the election never were allowed to rule. The US/Israel have put Gaza under an economic and military siege while pulling strings to bring political chaos to the Palestinians. Classic divide and conquer tactics by the US/Israel.

fatah didn't sell out, they simply played both sides and paid for it. to the world they tried to appear reasonable and thus gained funding. while they continued to support terrorism and filled further generations with hateful propanda and brainwashing under their watch. they took positions that garranteed there was no peace settlement. of course there was no good end to it, they were just milking the cow until the situation went out of balance.

 

[Narmer]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo

Originally posted by: GrGr
Hamas is the group that won the democratic election. Fatah, Arafat's old group, lost the election. Israel and the US did not like this so they imposed economic sanctions on Palestine. Israel started abducting Hamas ministers and throw them in jail while supporting the lame duck Fatah President Abbas as a quisling they could grease. Fatah sold out to Israel. The US started to give money and arms to Fatah because they best serve Israel's interests thus starting a civil war. Hamas, the winners of the election never were allowed to rule. The US/Israel have put Gaza under an economic and military siege while pulling strings to bring political chaos to the Palestinians. Classic divide and conquer tactics by the US/Israel.

fatah didn't sell out, they simply played both sides and paid for it. to the world they tried to appear reasonable and thus gained funding. while they continued to support terrorism and filled further generations with hateful propanda and brainwashing under their watch. they took positions that garranteed there was no peace settlement. of course there was no good end to it, they were just milking the cow until the situation went out of balance.

Before or after arafat? After arafat, isreal did its best to hamper abbas.

 

[0roo0roo]

abbas was part of the same system. he talked, but he had no backing. he couldn't return with something that didn't include things like right of return without probably being assassinated. the well had already been poisoned . there was no will behind him to really work for real change. arafats system continued to run, holding out the false hand of peace while brewing fighters to keep the fight on. continueing the fight against israel through deceit.

 

[Duddy]

How American's view the situation:

These towel heads wanna kill those towel heads.




Also, WhyTF should anyone care anymore. According to history, all they do is kill themselves and seek massive attention. Hundreds of years, same story, different names.

 

[Lemon law]

The lot of the Palestinians in Gaza will get dramatically worse and will become a humanitarian crisis is how I read the tea leaves. The US and Israel will hope that it will prove that Hamas is no good. And instead the US and Israel will end up getting more than its share of the blame. Hamas is far more modernistic than Fatah and in the end, will prove to have
stronger sticks. Not only is the clock on progress rolled back 20 years, the ground rules will change. The Joker in the deck is always world public opinion and the convention wisdom is already on trial because of Iraq.

Duddy may end up being right---and in a hundred years it will be the same story and just different names---but don't bet the farm on it. Times change and Israeli and US policy has not. When the clock runs out, its amazing to see how fast the conventional wisdom can collapse--and someone like the almighty Shah of Iran can become untenable in the blink of an eye.

 

[Moonbeam]

Remember, always blame the victim.

 

[Socio]

Here is an article that pretty much explains what is going in in Gaza, in fact the entire Middle East for that matter.

Islam: The Power of 'No'

Slowly, ever so slowly, it is beginning to dawn on Americans that anything we attempt to do to entice the Middle East into the 21-st century is likely to meet with defeat. That's because the Middle East's Muslim population, held in the grip of brutal men and a brutal theology, remains impervious to the possibility of peace, of freedom, of individual liberty.

What Muslims are especially good at is saying "No." They have been saying no to anything that smacks of modern civilized behavior for a very long time, and that resistance has been largely tolerated in the West because (a) their nation may sit atop a lot of oil and/or (b) they are oppressed by their fellow Arabs.

United Nations decision to grant sovereignty to the Israelis was extended to the Arabs in the area, granting them territory on which to build a Palestinian nation. The Arabs said no.

Instead, they immediately attacked the new nation and were defeated. Would they now accept terms granting them a nation of their own? No

What was their response? The defeated Arab nations convened a conference from which they issued their now-famous Three No's: No to peace with Israel. No to recognition of Israel. No to any negotiation with Israel.

Israel's response has been to negotiate at every opportunity. They negotiated with Egypt and returned the Sinai. They negotiated "land for peace" with Yassir Arafat's Palestinian Liberation Front in Oslo, Norway. They were rewarded with the infamous Intifada that escalated into a series of suicide bombings.

Israeli government had unilaterally withdrawn from the Gaza strip, literally dragging their own citizens who lived there from their homes. Surely that would secure peace? No.

That led to a civil war between Hamas, whose entire political platform is the destruction of Israel, and Fatah, backed by the U.S. in the vain hope that it might negotiate peace --at last -- with Israel.

 

[Czar]

Socio,
you are skipping out aloooot of facts with that article

 

[DeeKnow]

Hamas, Fatah, PLO, ..... its all the same. a bunch of thugs who all claim a higher religious purpose for their very down to earth search for political power and US$.

the poor people have been taken for a ride. the suckers glorified violence and suicide bombings all these years as bonafide political weapons, and are now shocked as the same violence now comes back home.

 

[imported_Shivetya]

Originally posted by: DeeKnow
Hamas, Fatah, PLO, Republican, Democrat, European..... its all the same. a bunch of thugs who all claim a higher religious purpose for their very down to earth search for political power and US$.

I think that that is a better list of groups