Can real civil discourse and good governance exist in our current 2-party paradigm?

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Can real civil discourse and good governance exist in our current 2-party paradigm?

  • Yes

    Votes: 9 34.6%

  • No

    Votes: 17 65.4%
  • Total voters
    26
C

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
4,346
26
81
I say no. The toxic partisan dysfunction that exists cannot fix itself and will only continue (and only get worse).

It will take a nearly impossible effort of non-partisans, moderates, and independents (ie. reasonable non-maniacs) to force the political culture and electoral structure into change.

What say you?
 
F

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,721
54,718
136
cwjerome said:
I say no. The toxic partisan dysfunction that exists cannot fix itself and will only continue (and only get worse).

It will take a nearly impossible effort of non-partisans, moderates, and independents (ie. reasonable non-maniacs) to force the political culture and electoral structure into change.

What say you?
Click to expand...
(Relatively) civil discourse has existed in our system in the past, so why couldn't it again?

People don't want to hear this, but the path back to civil discourse lies almost exclusively in reigning in the radicalism of the Republican Party. People often think it's enlightened to blame our current toxic environment on #bothsides or whatever, but it's simply untrue. Part of the country has gone insane.
 
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Pohemi

Pohemi

Lifer
Oct 2, 2004
10,860
16,930
146
As it is now? Maybe.
As it seems to be moving? I doubt it.

Currently, one or very few players can ruin all attempts at accomplishing anything, and do it for no more reason than spite and partisanship.

And they keep one-upping each other in how shitty they can be, as if it makes them a stronger candidate for re-election. And often times it does, because their constituents are shitty people, too.
 
C

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
4,346
26
81
I think it's naive to believe it's only the GOP. Our current two-party system is incredibly tribal, incredibly cultish, and exists only to win elections at any cost. It's tearing down essential values that hold things together.
 
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nakedfrog

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
62,106
17,912
136
cwjerome said:
I think it's naive to believe it's only the GOP. Our current two-party system is incredibly tribal, incredibly cultish, and exists only to win elections at any cost. It's tearing down essential values that hold things together.
Click to expand...
No it isn't.
 
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Pohemi

Pohemi

Lifer
Oct 2, 2004
10,860
16,930
146
cwjerome said:
I think it's naive to believe it's only the GOP. Our current two-party system is incredibly tribal, incredibly cultish, and exists only to win elections at any cost. It's tearing down essential values that hold things together.
Click to expand...
You just described the GOP while attempting to bothsides it. It doesn't quite work like that, but good effort? I guess.

The two-party system sucks, I'll give you that. But you can't just sweep away the discrepancy and inequality between the two parties over the past 20 years. It's ridiculous to say they're "equally at fault".
 
C

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
4,346
26
81
nakedfrog said:
No it isn't.
Click to expand...
LOL, thanks for that precise bit of clarity. Your certainty is extremely persuasive. The electoral system we've created local/state/national promotes the dysfunction and hinders proper discourse and competition. It's a rigged system and only the parties/politicians benefit. If you think it's only one side you're either in on the con or being conned.
 
nakedfrog

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
62,106
17,912
136
cwjerome said:
LOL, thanks for that precise bit of clarity. Your certainty is extremely persuasive. The electoral system we've created local/state/national promotes the dysfunction and hinders proper discourse and competition. It's a rigged system and only the parties/politicians benefit. If you think it's only one side you're either in on the con or being conned.
Click to expand...
I know one party is explicitly focused on preventing governing from being done, while also attempting to consolidate power, and blatantly ignoring (or worse, cheering on) various assaults on our democracy. FOH with your bullshit "they're the saaaame" nonsense.

Edit: I'm not trying to persuade you, for the record.
 
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C

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
4,346
26
81
Pohemi420 said:
You just described the GOP while attempting to bothsides it. It doesn't quite work like that, but good effort? I guess.

The two-party system sucks, I'll give you that. But you can't just sweep away the discrepancy and inequality between the two parties over the past 20 years. It's ridiculous to say they're "equally at fault".
Click to expand...

Where did you get that quote, "equally at fault"?
 
nickqt

nickqt

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2015
8,086
8,952
136
cwjerome said:
LOL, thanks for that precise bit of clarity. Your certainty is extremely persuasive. The electoral system we've created local/state/national promotes the dysfunction and hinders proper discourse and competition. It's a rigged system and only the parties/politicians benefit. If you think it's only one side you're either in on the con or being conned.
Click to expand...
Yes, the BothSidesDoIt™ BigLie.

As if the Democratic Party is in any way shape or form similar to the Republican Party.

We get it. You vote Republican, but you don't like saying you're a Republican because decent people gave that bullshit up decades ago.

Carry on with your BothSidesDoIt™ schtick, Mr. Radical Independent™.
 
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C

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
4,346
26
81
Pohemi420 said:
I'm paraphrasing based on what else you stated. If you want to play word games, I can do that. I get plenty of practice from the, "I didn't say those exact words" clowns here.
Click to expand...
Putting something in quotes, especially if it's not representative of what I'm saying, is not paraphrasing. Same old P&N... no gray, no nuance, no context, no reasoning? Like a toddler's worldview of black-white, good-evil, yes-no? Come on people I'm not comparing Reps and Dems I'm talking about a flawed system. If you think our current social-political dysfunction is only because the GOP are baddies you really need to broaden your horizons. It's a systemic issue, the GOP is a symptom not a cause. Cut the surface level crap.
 
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MrSquished

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
26,060
24,366
136
No. The Democrats are your average political party. Some corruption, some bad policy, some fringe wackadoos (of which many don't even really identify as Democrats), etc.. to go along with people who truly believe in certain ideological principles.

The GQP at this point the majority of the party IS the corruption and corrupt policy and fringe wackadoos - their principles only go as far as they can in order to keep their base in line. Keep in mind a huge chunk of that base is literally confederate flag waving racists and insane rapture evangelicals and anti-science loons. It's literally the lunatics running the asylum over there.

Good luck fixing that equation.
 
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C

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
4,346
26
81
nickqt said:
Yes, the BothSidesDoIt™ BigLie.

As if the Democratic Party is in any way shape or form similar to the Republican Party.

We get it. You vote Republican, but you don't like saying you're a Republican because decent people gave that bullshit up decades ago.

Carry on with your BothSidesDoIt™ schtick, Mr. Radical Independent™.
Click to expand...

Hahaha... it's unfathomable for righteous partisans to think outside the binary box. Cute.
 
nakedfrog

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
62,106
17,912
136
You asked about our current 2 party paradigm, and we have the GALL to look at it from the perspective of our current 2 party paradigm, how gauche!

If real civil discourse and good governance were possible in a 2 party system in the past, doesn't that suggest that the 2 party system is not inherently flawed?
 
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MrSquished

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
26,060
24,366
136
nickqt said:
Sure thing, Republican-pretending-to-be-an-Independent™.

Carry on.
Click to expand...

Anyone that looks at the GQP that elected and worships in a cult like way a guy like Trump - then says the Dems who nominated a moderate and reasonable man as president are the same, is just a right-wing hack and just as much of the problem as the lady with Fuck Biden signs hanging on her fence. They both have psychosis and don't exist in reality.
 
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C

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
4,346
26
81
nickqt said:
Sure thing, Republican-pretending-to-be-an-Independent™.

Carry on.
Click to expand...

Well I think you're an excellent example of a broken product of the system. Instead of creating a fantasy in your mind about things... I can just tell you what I am. Registered Independent for 20 years with libertarian-ish leanings. And I think modern political parties are corrosive and do more harm than good. See, not hard.
 
C

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
4,346
26
81
nakedfrog said:
You asked about our current 2 party paradigm, and we have the GALL to look at it from the perspective of our current 2 party paradigm, how gauche!

If real civil discourse and good governance were possible in a 2 party system in the past, doesn't that suggest that the 2 party system is not inherently flawed?
Click to expand...

Your first comments gets to one of my points- the system we're in can't fix itself. The second comment... I think they served a purpose in the past but times have changed. The people have changed, the government has changed, ideas have changed, the world has changed. In our current environment the parties are doing more harm than good.
 
G

gothuevos

Diamond Member
Jul 28, 2010
3,346
2,370
136
No, it's over. Probably looking at balkinization in our lifetime. And that's a best case scenario.
 
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