cKGunslinger
Lifer
Shhhh.. He's showing us all how smart he is. 😉
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Can people shutup about class size
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Shhhh.. He's showing us all how smart he is. 😉
montanafan
Diamond Member
Though I don't think class size is even one of the major problems in U.S. high schools today, let's take your argument and apply some facts to it.
Fact - In most states there are mandates limiting class size at the elementary school level though not at the high school level.
Fact - U.S. fourth graders consistently score well on the Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study (TIMSS) which provides reliable and timely data on the mathematics and science achievement of U.S. students compared to that of students in other countries. Their scores then tend to drop as they progress to middle and high school.
Fact - On the 2003 TIMSS the average mathematics score of U.S. fourth graders was 518. The international average was 495. The average science score of U.S. fourth graders was 536. The international average was 489.
If American students are scoring a higher average than most other countries at the elementary school level where smaller class size is mandated, then wouldn't you think that might have something to do with their success?
Fact - In most states there are mandates limiting class size at the elementary school level though not at the high school level.
Fact - U.S. fourth graders consistently score well on the Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study (TIMSS) which provides reliable and timely data on the mathematics and science achievement of U.S. students compared to that of students in other countries. Their scores then tend to drop as they progress to middle and high school.
Fact - On the 2003 TIMSS the average mathematics score of U.S. fourth graders was 518. The international average was 495. The average science score of U.S. fourth graders was 536. The international average was 489.
If American students are scoring a higher average than most other countries at the elementary school level where smaller class size is mandated, then wouldn't you think that might have something to do with their success?
AreaCode707
Lifer
There are high levels of smartness in this thread, reminiscent of the all powerful DessertCart.
when I was in college, I had several classes with less than 15 people and several classes with more than 50.
HUUUUUGE difference. small classes tend to be a lot more engaging and interactive, whereas large classes tend to revolve around a professor standing at a podium reading off lecture notes for an hour.
HUUUUUGE difference. small classes tend to be a lot more engaging and interactive, whereas large classes tend to revolve around a professor standing at a podium reading off lecture notes for an hour.
Do you know what the problem with our schools is? It's not class sizes. It's not the kids. It's the PARENTS.
Instead of SUPPORTING our teachers, parents are in there ripping them a new one if they ever punish their LITTLE ANGEL!! Because their kids could NEVER do ANYTHING wrong EVER!
Teacher's hands are tied. They can only do so much as far as controlling a classroom or all the petty parents will fly off the hook and sue and a bunch of other ******.
Remember when they could spank kids? I bet they didn't have nearly the problems they do now.
I'm not saying to bring that back, but if some teacher yelled at a kid or something, they would probably get in trouble, instead of the kid - who is the one who should be in trouble.
Instead of SUPPORTING our teachers, parents are in there ripping them a new one if they ever punish their LITTLE ANGEL!! Because their kids could NEVER do ANYTHING wrong EVER!
Teacher's hands are tied. They can only do so much as far as controlling a classroom or all the petty parents will fly off the hook and sue and a bunch of other ******.
Remember when they could spank kids? I bet they didn't have nearly the problems they do now.
I'm not saying to bring that back, but if some teacher yelled at a kid or something, they would probably get in trouble, instead of the kid - who is the one who should be in trouble.
GeekDrew
Diamond Member
The parents do not have the only blame, nor do the teachers, nor do the students. There are a lot of teachers that *definitely* give students and parents reason to want to hate them, sue them, and generally try to make their lives as miserable as possible. Instead, the parents and students then (typically) hate school, and their parents support them, because of the other poor teachers that like to do their best to frustrate students.
If the teachers were better, I think that the parent situation would be better.
If the parents were better, I think that the teacher situation would be better.
But I think that those both have to change concurrently -- one changing without the other is *extremely* unlikely, and I think that it would be pointless to try to change only one, instead of both.
There are certain teachers that I think should be permitted to punish kids via spanking or whatnot -- "the old way". There are *many more* that I wouldn't trust to even hold a paddle in an empty room, let alone be allowed to touch someone with it. Too many teachers would go apeshit on kids.
randomlinh
Lifer
BOOM. Exactly what I was going to post. Kids these days seem to have absolutely no regard for authority. They create problems and distruptions in classes... regardless of how big it is. And you're asking teachers who are being paid jack sh!t (unless you've toughed it out several years) to educate the future leaders of the world?
True...but there is a lot of parent problems these days.
I lucked out, went to school in a smaller town (about 50K people) and all the teachers here actually give a damn about their students. There were very few that didn't do a good job. The parents knew them, and they were respected by the parents.
But the discipline MUST come from the parents - not the school system. I didn't care about getting in trouble at school - I could have cared less what they did. Give me a referral or whatever.
HOWEVER - What I did care about was the punishment I would receive when my parents found out about it - and they DID find out - you couldn't hide anything from them. They were involved. They knew what was going on, and stayed on top of the things my brother and I were doing in school. Good grades and behaviour was rewarded. The bad, punished.
That's the problem - the parents aren't involved enough. And I've heard all the excuses about how they have to work so much and just don't have the time. Well if you don't have the time for your children, then you SHOULDN'T HAVE CHILDREN.
To elaborate on the techer thing a bit more - I know a teacher. She taught I think 6th. She quit after a year because she couldn't stand the parents. They wouldn't support her. If their kids got bad grades, they would storm in, call, whatever and full on blame her for it. She would tell them that their child had discipline problems and was disruptive and that's why they were not learning. But did the parents do any corrective action for thier child? Nope. Just more blame.
A large problem with children in this day is that the parents are not seen as the proper authority figure that they MUST be in able to keep control on their kids. Not to be an over-abrasive parent or anything, but to make sure that the child is going in the right direction and making positive steps in life.
I've heard a kid in high school that talked back to his parents and just generally direspected them. If I were his parents, he would be very sore and miserable. Perhaps not by spanking or anything, but there is plenty of work I could find for them to do. The guy would cease to have any sort of social life, period. No TV, no phone, no internet, no nothing. Either working, studying, or sleeping.
I don't see how parents these days will put up with such blatant disrespect from their children. I certainly wouldn't. Yeah they wouldn't like it, and when I was growing up I didn't like a lot of it either - but it was the best thing for me and I'm glad that my parents cared enough about me to do it.
GeekDrew
Diamond Member
I went to school in an even smaller town. My graduating class (2003) was 127, IIRC.
I worked at the school during my senior year, and for two years after. I've seen stuff happen behind the scenes that just makes me shudder. Some of the teachers that you think were the best teachers when you were a student may actually be horrible teachers, and some of the teachers that you might think were horrible are great.
I'm not discounting the lack of parenting, because I agree that it definitely needs help -- but I refuse to focus on it. I got through school without much support from my parents, and was never in trouble in high school. There are a lot of messed up parents out there that would be doing their children a disservice if they tried to help them with their school work, or tried to punish them for doing something wrong. My dad is a prime example -- he graduated from high school, but he hasn't got a clue about real life, and whenever my little brother asks him for help with homework or whatnot, even when it applies to what my dad does (farming), I continuously have to intervene, because my dad is incorrect, and I don't want my little brother to be learning *anything* from my dad.
Yes, I know that the above is a secific example -- but I have seen *MANY MANY MANY* cases of this exact example during my time in public education. I've seen enough to not want to ever be a teacher, and to very, very loudly discourage anyone from wanting to be a teacher. It's nothing but a lifetime of misery and low wages.
And for anyone that happens to know which schools I worked at, I'm not going to say what happened where 😉
Yup. As far as Asia is concerned: cram schools
High school in Japan is also not compulsory, you have to take an entrance exam to get in. There is a wide range of schools, from top "prep" high schools to others where the students are basically just there to get a diploma pretty much anyone who wants to go could go to one but they may not necessarily learn anything. I went to a public junior high school in Japan (jhs in Japan is 3years, hs is 3years) and by my last year more than half the students were going to cram schools (3-4hrs per night on weeknights, all day sat and sun) just to get into high school, once they get there then it's more cram school to get into college.
Also high schools in Japan typically offer only 2 tracks, science/math or humanities. Doesn't matter if you are a math whiz or hate math but love biology or love science but also want to do history, if you want to go towards science/math majors in college you have to take the same courses as everyone else who is in your track. Even the tests are standardized between different teachers so you know exactly where you rank compared to your peers and though a lot of schools are moving away from the practice, more competitive schools will post your test scores up so everyone else can see where you stand too.
Sounds fun, right? I got out.
Well I also had the luck of having two parents who were intelligent. My mom is an RN. My dad was a music major, but ended up doing other things. Big do-it-yourself guy. Learned a ton of stuff just working my ass off with him on all of the various projects over the years. Done enough that I could practically build a house by myself.
I agree there is more to the issue than just parents, but the parents are a huge key to it all. Again, if the parents allow children to be disrespectful towards them, they aren't going to think twice about completely disrepsecting any other authority figures - teachers or otherwise. Which can eventually get them into trouble with the law, etc.
I agree there is more to the issue than just parents, but the parents are a huge key to it all. Again, if the parents allow children to be disrespectful towards them, they aren't going to think twice about completely disrepsecting any other authority figures - teachers or otherwise. Which can eventually get them into trouble with the law, etc.
Itchrelief
Golden Member
It isn't just the parents. The whole culture in the USA derides the nerd. Ferris Bueller is a hero. If your kid rebels against academics, sometimes it won't matter how much the parent disciplines him when he obviously sees that 1)it isn't cool to study 2)you don't need to study to get ahead in the USA 3)academic achievement is not necessarily valued except perhaps by the parents, which means diddly if the kid is rebellious.
S
SlitheryDee
Maybe the solution is for society to recognize the importance of teachers, and to reward the good ones accordingly. The people that settle for the "misery and low wages" of teaching either love the job or made an incorrect career choice. I personally think that educating on all levels should be a highly paid and respected job, if this were true then we might have more effective educational system.
Interesting thing about class sizes, it is also greatly increases the need for teachers. However that need for teachers does not mean you will be getting qualified teachers.
Would you rather have 40:1 teacher student ratio and have highly qualified and motivated teachers or 20:1 ratio with any teacher you can find. Think about it....
Would you rather have 40:1 teacher student ratio and have highly qualified and motivated teachers or 20:1 ratio with any teacher you can find. Think about it....
darthsidious
Senior member
From what I've seen of the US school system as an outsider (I went to high school in India), you get what you put in it. My high school was OK. Nothing spectacular. I was usually bored, and most of the learning I did was as preperation for the (fairly intense) IIT entrance exam.
Many of my friends(I go to MIT) were able to take classes at local universities, and do stuff I never had an opportunity to do at all. But then again, I've also heard horror stories from them about some of their classmates and teachers. So maybe people should focus on getting kids to be more motivated and interested; from what I've seen, the opportunities exist for those who are interested.
Many of my friends(I go to MIT) were able to take classes at local universities, and do stuff I never had an opportunity to do at all. But then again, I've also heard horror stories from them about some of their classmates and teachers. So maybe people should focus on getting kids to be more motivated and interested; from what I've seen, the opportunities exist for those who are interested.
drinkmorejava
Diamond Member
So you're telling me, that when my english teacher has 3 classes of 34 students instead of 3 of 25, that she won't have 26.5% less time to grade and write feedback on each paper? Because if you aren't, then tell me again how it doesn't affect performance.
A lot more influenced than just one on one interaction.
A lot more influenced than just one on one interaction.
montanafan
Diamond Member
And BTW, if we're going to be dealing with facts here and not just something you've pulled out of your ummm hat, you'll have to take Europe out of your quote.
Average class sizes in the EU:
Czech Republic - 20.8
Denmark - 19.4
Austria - 20.1
Belgium - 20.3
Cyprus - 21.7
Estonia - 21.1
Finland - 19.5
France - 22.6
Germany - 22
Greece - 17.2
Hungary - 20.4
Ireland - 24
Italy - 18.1
Latvia - 17.2
Lithuania - 15.2
Luxembourg - 15.7
Malta - 21.6
Netherlands - 22.2
Portugal - 18.9
Slovakia - 20.2
Slovenia - 18.4
Spain - 20.8
Sweden - 24.7
United Kingdom - 26
The Batt?sai
Diamond Member
i was 5th in a class of 110. i messed up though from being #1 😀
A) I've never seen a high school class with less than 30 students in it. I don't know where you're getting your 16.4 number; I read a statistic similar to that once, but it was including all staff positions too (secretaries don't teach classrooms)
B) In a college comp sci class, you have office hours for asking questions. Only a handful of students will go to office hours anyway. High school students are supposed to ask questions in-class (and I don't know about your experience, but we asked questions all the time - could be because I took all honors courses).
C) In a college comp sci class, I guarantee you have grad students running around to help you with your questions. No such luck for a high school teacher
D) You are foolishly mistaken if you believe that class size is where all of the money goes in the public education black hole. The entire public education system has become fat with people who don't serve a necessary function. Teachers are necessary. Some administrators are necessary.
E) College is 100% optional and costs a hell of a lot more. You go to college because you want to be there one way or another. Every college student knows that going to class is an optional ordeal. You'll go as often as necessary to get the grade that you want. High school is mandatory
F) You have no idea what you're talking about when you say that Education majors have the lowest standardized test scores. They are bottom of the barrel scores without a doubt, but there are worse.
G) Some high school teachers really don't want to be there. Telling them to "stop sucking" isn't really an option when in actuality there just isn't enough demand for talented high school teachers. I'd love to teach, but the pay and benefits aren't good enough for me to babysit high school brats, so I'd rather teach at the college level where the kids at least have an opiate (booze, which is more available in college because mommy and daddy are no longer there to say no)
H) Why should anyone listen to you? You don't even seem to know what you're talking about. Better yet, you don't seem to have a reason to be talking at all. Was there something that sparked this rant?
When I was going to high school, there was a wave of teacher layoffs and pay reduction due to budget reasons. That very same year the administration for our school district voted and successfully raised their own salaries. Also, my English professor two years ago did some volunteer work for the middle school right off campus, and their 7th and 8th grade English courses could not afford textbooks. Their oldbooks had become ratty and unusable and their class sizes had increased to 40+; the school budget couldn't support the purchase of new books, so the kids went without. I have no idea if this has been fixed.
If you're concerned about public education taking up too much money, then I suggest you rally people around REFORM OF THE CURRENT F'ED UP SYSTEM. I believe that there is enough money there if we knew how to take charge and get rid of the fat.
B) In a college comp sci class, you have office hours for asking questions. Only a handful of students will go to office hours anyway. High school students are supposed to ask questions in-class (and I don't know about your experience, but we asked questions all the time - could be because I took all honors courses).
C) In a college comp sci class, I guarantee you have grad students running around to help you with your questions. No such luck for a high school teacher
D) You are foolishly mistaken if you believe that class size is where all of the money goes in the public education black hole. The entire public education system has become fat with people who don't serve a necessary function. Teachers are necessary. Some administrators are necessary.
E) College is 100% optional and costs a hell of a lot more. You go to college because you want to be there one way or another. Every college student knows that going to class is an optional ordeal. You'll go as often as necessary to get the grade that you want. High school is mandatory
F) You have no idea what you're talking about when you say that Education majors have the lowest standardized test scores. They are bottom of the barrel scores without a doubt, but there are worse.
G) Some high school teachers really don't want to be there. Telling them to "stop sucking" isn't really an option when in actuality there just isn't enough demand for talented high school teachers. I'd love to teach, but the pay and benefits aren't good enough for me to babysit high school brats, so I'd rather teach at the college level where the kids at least have an opiate (booze, which is more available in college because mommy and daddy are no longer there to say no)
H) Why should anyone listen to you? You don't even seem to know what you're talking about. Better yet, you don't seem to have a reason to be talking at all. Was there something that sparked this rant?
When I was going to high school, there was a wave of teacher layoffs and pay reduction due to budget reasons. That very same year the administration for our school district voted and successfully raised their own salaries. Also, my English professor two years ago did some volunteer work for the middle school right off campus, and their 7th and 8th grade English courses could not afford textbooks. Their oldbooks had become ratty and unusable and their class sizes had increased to 40+; the school budget couldn't support the purchase of new books, so the kids went without. I have no idea if this has been fixed.
If you're concerned about public education taking up too much money, then I suggest you rally people around REFORM OF THE CURRENT F'ED UP SYSTEM. I believe that there is enough money there if we knew how to take charge and get rid of the fat.
I've noticed a sincere change in America's attitudes towards intelligence since the 1980s. First of all, the type of nerd from "Revenge of the Nerds" and other stereotypes from the 1980s are quickly fading away. The modern nerd is capable of going to real parties and bars and getting laid. The nerd of the past is dying out like the dinosaurs.
I don't of any movies since the 1980s that belittles nerds.
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