Can Islam reform?

[Aimster]

Originally posted by: Alaa

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: yllus

Originally posted by: Aimster
Islam is a religion for men. Women are the lesser of the two and are subject to the rules of men.

Islam is good for us men. Bad for the women.

This is a fact. If you wish to debate this then I will love to tell you how Islam is a slave religion for females.

Okay, I dispute your position that Islam is a slave religion for females. Show me your facts.

Here is one ....

Women cannot divorce their husbands without the husband's approval.

If the husband refuses to grant approval.. the woman must go before an Islamic court.

Men however can divorce their wives without approval or Islamic court.

did you read the document?

no, but where does it talk about women divorcing?

 

[lyssword]

Do you want to know more about {Noodle Soup}? I give you a chance to learn more about it, it comes in dreams to some people and they claim {Noodle Soup} has a comp that can run any game on Ultra High setting. By the way, I'm very generous in giving you a free choice to convert. If you don't convert I will declare war on you. Also if you have already converted but then think that {Noodle Soup} is a completely made-up bullsh1t and then quit it, we have a right to murder you, as our law in Iceland says (lol sorry Iceland that I had to use you in this way 🙂

 

[Alaa]

Originally posted by: Aimster

no, but where does it talk about women divorcing?

P. 75

 

[Alaa]

Originally posted by: lyssword
Do you want to know more about {Noodle Soup}? I give you a chance to learn more about it, it comes in dreams to some people and they claim {Noodle Soup} has a comp that can run any game on Ultra High setting. By the way, I'm very generous in giving you a free choice to convert. If you don't convert I will declare war on you. Also if you have already converted but then think that {Noodle Soup} is a completely made-up bullsh1t and then quit it, we have a right to murder you, as our law in Iceland says (lol sorry Iceland that I had to use you in this way 🙂

good to see that it has nothing related to Islam.

 

[Aimster]

Originally posted by: Alaa

Originally posted by: Aimster

no, but where does it talk about women divorcing?

P. 75

your document does not talk about the steps regarding divorce.

Search: divorce

only 3 times was it mentioned in your article.

 

[imported_dna]

Originally posted by: Alaa

Originally posted by: Aimster

no, but where does it talk about women divorcing?

P. 75

I'm a afraid it doesn't say anything about divorce in the entire document.
Also, the page you pointed to also demonstrates a problem I have with this document: all this praising of Islam make it seem like propaganda. Sure, you can claim Islam "accorded" rights, but the facts on the ground were different.

 

[lyssword]

Originally posted by: Alaa

Originally posted by: lyssword
Do you want to know more about {Noodle Soup}? I give you a chance to learn more about it, it comes in dreams to some people and they claim {Noodle Soup} has a comp that can run any game on Ultra High setting. By the way, I'm very generous in giving you a free choice to convert. If you don't convert I will declare war on you. Also if you have already converted but then think that {Noodle Soup} is a completely made-up bullsh1t and then quit it, we have a right to murder you, as our law in Iceland says (lol sorry Iceland that I had to use you in this way 🙂

good to see that it has nothing related to Islam.

Thats great 🙂. However if any of the abovesaid believers are insulted in a Muslim country (i'm very sure they would be, in real life), I will order our fellow {Noodle Soup} believers to blow up mosques/restaurants/workplaces and other heavy populated areas in that country.
*disclaimer this or previous related post has no actual facts, but just a rhetoric, my intent is only to debate. Please do not try to hunt me down and kill me because I might have appeared to insult Islam*

 

[yllus]

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: yllus

Originally posted by: Aimster
Here is one ....

Women cannot divorce their husbands without the husband's approval.

If the husband refuses to grant approval.. the woman must go before an Islamic court.

Men however can divorce their wives without approval or Islamic court.

Show me the lines in the Koran that state that?

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=women+divorcing+husband+islam

Lazy. 😛

I took a look at three pages on the first page of Google results that referenced the Koran directly.

#1:

The Qur'an says:

"And if you fear a breach between the two, then appoint judge from his people and a judge from her people; if they both desire agreement, Allah will effect harmony between them, surely Allah is Knowing, Aware." (4:35).

#2:

Islam does recognize the right of both partners to end their matrimonial relationship. Islam gives the husband the right for Talaq (divorce). Moreover, Islam, unlike Judaism, grants the wife the right to dissolve the marriage through what is known as Khula'. 36 If the husband dissolves the marriage by divorcing his wife, he cannot retrieve any of the marriage gifts he has given her. The Quran explicitly prohibits the divorcing husbands from taking back their marriage gifts no matter how expensive or valuable these gifts might be:

"But if you decide to take one wife in place of another, even if you had given the latter a whole treasure for dower, take not the least bit of it back; Would you take it by slander and a manifest wrong?" (Quran 4:20).

In the case of the wife choosing to end the marriage, she may return the marriage gifts to her husband. Returning the marriage gifts in this case is a fair compensation for the husband who is keen to keep his wife while she chooses to leave him. The Quran has instructed Muslim men not to take back any of the gifts they have given to their wives except in the case of the wife choosing to dissolve the marriage:

"It is not lawful for you (Men) to take back any of your gifts except when both parties fear that they would be unable to keep the limits ordained by Allah. There is no blame on either of them if she give something for her freedom. These are the limits ordained by Allah so do not transgress them" (Quran 2:229).

In short, Islam has offered the Muslim woman some unequalled rights: she can end the marriage through Khula' and she can sue for a divorce. A Muslim wife can never become chained by a recalcitrant husband. It was these rights that enticed Jewish women who lived in the early Islamic societies of the seventh century C.E. to seek to obtain bills of divorce from their Jewish husbands in Muslim courts.

#3:

The controversy with divorce lies in the idea that men seem to have absolute power in divorce. The way the scholars in the past have interpreted this is that if the man initiates the divorce, then the reconciliation step for appointing an arbiter from both sides is omitted. This diverges from the Qur'anic injunction. The differences in powers of the husband and wife with regard to divorce can be extracted from the following verse:

...but, in accordance with justice, the rights of the wives (with regard to their husbands) are equal to the (husbands😉 rights with regard to them, although men have precedence over them (in this respect). And God is almighty wise. (2:228)

It is in the next verse, according to existing interpretations, the reason for the small difference:

Men shall take full care of women with the bounties which God has bestowed more abundantly on the former than on the latter, and with what they may spend out of their possessions. And the righteous women are the truly devout ones, who guard the intimacy which God has (ordained to be) guarded. (4:34)

It is clear that the Qur'an states there is a "degree" of difference with regards to the rights of men and women in divorce, but it is not clear "how much" and "what" privileges a man is entitled to. This is what has been interpreted by the jurists. It should also be noted if the difference is due in part to the man being the financial supporter, then it must follow that if the woman shares or is the main financial contributor to the family that this privilege should apply to her as well.

Sounds like wilful misinterpretation if you ask me. Nothing new to our least favourite parts of the world, but nevertheless not backed up in the religious text.

 

[Alaa]

Originally posted by: dna
I'm a afraid it doesn't say anything about divorce in the entire document.
Also, the page you pointed to also demonstrates a problem I have with this document: all this praising of Islam make it seem like propaganda. Sure, you can claim Islam "accorded" rights, but the facts on the ground were different.

well I didn't mean that it contains divorce I only pointed that he should read those pages before asking. well, this is Islam!! believe it or not! whether facts on the ground are different or not the document is true.

 

[Alaa]

Originally posted by: lyssword
Thats great 🙂. However if any of the abovesaid believers are insulted in a Muslim country (i'm very sure they would be, in real life), I will order our fellow {Noodle Soup} believers to blow up mosques/restaurants/workplaces and other heavy populated areas in that country.
*disclaimer this or previous related post has no actual facts, but just a rhetoric, my intent is only to debate. Please do not try to hunt me down and kill me because I might have appeared to insult Islam*

don't worry i will not kill you 😛 just wait till am free. We don't insult any religion and if they want to blow us up for insulting then they are welcome!! IF we insulted them...

 

[imported_dna]

Originally posted by: Alaa
well I didn't mean that it contains divorce I only pointed that he should read those pages before asking. well, this is Islam!! believe it or not! whether facts on the ground are different or not the document is true.

Eh... you're flip-flopping now....

I don't know what you mean by that the document is true, since at the end of the day it's all about how you implement it; I've seen plenty religious type acting righteous, going to church, or synagogue, and afterwards acting their usual not-so-righteous self.

 

[Alaa]

Originally posted by: dna

Originally posted by: Alaa
well I didn't mean that it contains divorce I only pointed that he should read those pages before asking. well, this is Islam!! believe it or not! whether facts on the ground are different or not the document is true.

Eh... you're flip-flopping now....

I don't know what you mean by that the document is true, since at the end of the day it's all about how you implement it; I've seen plenty religious type acting righteous, going to church, or synagogue, and afterwards acting their usual not-so-righteous self.

I think it is clear with no confusion..what would cause not-so-righteous?? A true righteous is righteous no doubt..

 

[imported_dna]

Originally posted by: Alaa
I think it is clear with no confusion..what would cause not-so-righteous?? A true righteous is righteous no doubt..

We are all righteous in our own mind, and hence the problem.

 

[Alaa]

Originally posted by: dna

Originally posted by: Alaa
I think it is clear with no confusion..what would cause not-so-righteous?? A true righteous is righteous no doubt..

We are all righteous in our own mind, and hence the problem.

here comes the need for a reference to compare yourself to. Like what we do in Islam.

 

[imported_dna]

Originally posted by: Alaa
here comes the need for a reference to compare yourself to. Like what we do in Islam.

References are irrelevant, as they may be interperted in various ways; in the end, you'll always manage to think of yourself as righteous if you try hard enough.

(btw, I don't think myself as righteous, nor do I attempt to compare myself to any "references")

 

[Alaa]

Originally posted by: dna
References are irrelevant, as they may be interpreted in various ways; in the end, you'll always manage to think of yourself as righteous if you try hard enough.

(btw, I don't think myself as righteous, nor do I attempt to compare myself to any "references")

although they might be interpreted in various ways, picking what you want to follow is easy in Islam.

 

[imported_dna]

Originally posted by: Alaa
although they might be interpreted in various ways, picking what you want to follow is easy in Islam.

By admitting that it may be interperted in various ways, you are effectively acknowledging the problem with these "references".

 

[Alaa]

Originally posted by: dna

Originally posted by: Alaa
although they might be interpreted in various ways, picking what you want to follow is easy in Islam.

By admitting that it may be interperted in various ways, you are effectively acknowledging the problem with these "references".

but it is not a problem to have two opinions and both are right!!

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: Rainsford
Since when is a religion, and everyone who practices that religion, one big homogeneous group? Look at the United States, we have very tolerant Christians,and very intolerant Christians. Given the low bar for calling yourself a Christian, can either group truthfully claim that THEY are truly Christian and the other group is not? Islam is the same, why would we assume that a particular group is the "true" voice of that religion, while the other Muslims are just CLAIMING to be Muslim? The only reason I can see is that you're looking for some excuse to back up religious bigotry, but that can't possibly be it!

So what's my point? I think the problem is the people in the Middle East, and what needs reforming is their overall culture. This isn't a religious problem any more than George W. Bush is a religious problem. There is unfortunitly no price of entry into Islam OR Christianity (or any other religion for that matter), any idiot can start yapping about "his" religion and he has just as much claim as anyone else to it. The problem, then, would seem to be the idiots, not the religion itself.

you should try reading the koran, then the new testament, then give your opinion again.

 

[Alaa]

Originally posted by: JS80
you should try reading the koran, then the new testament, then give your opinion again.

and you should read some Islamic explanations for the Quran as well.

 

[magomago]

Or I suggest he ACTUALLY reads the Quran.... random snippets from "prophet of doom" doesn't count.

 

[Zebo]

Absoulty not. Only those ignorant of history could ignore 1400 years of non-stop malevolent atittudes, hostile acts, persecution, mass-murder, of non-Muslims have been commited by muslims. Even today people seem unaware what has been the fate of Chrsitians/free thinkers/buddhists.. etc in Indonesia, in the southern Sudan, in northern Nigeria, in Pakistan and Kashmir and Bangladesh, in southern Thailand, in the Philippines...should I go on? Moderize as in what? Thier prophet calls for them to covert the world by sword if need be and that includes killing non-observant, i.e. moderate muslims.

 

[ahurtt]

Originally posted by: Alaa

Originally posted by: JS80
you should try reading the koran, then the new testament, then give your opinion again.

and you should read some Islamic explanations for the Quran as well.

Your screen name is similar to the name of God! Or at least it reminds me of it a little. You are a blasphemer and and infidel! Off with your head! AAAAAaayyyyyyaaaaalallalalalalaalalalalaala!!!!!

 

[Alaa]

Originally posted by: Zebo
Absoulty not. Only those ignorant of history could ignore 1400 years of non-stop malevolent atittudes, hostile acts, persecution, mass-murder, of non-Muslims have been commited by muslims. Even today people seem unaware what has been the fate of Chrsitians/free thinkers/buddhists.. etc in Indonesia, in the southern Sudan, in northern Nigeria, in Pakistan and Kashmir and Bangladesh, in southern Thailand, in the Philippines...should I go on? Moderize as in what? Thier prophet calls for them to covert the world by sword if need be and that includes killing non-observant, i.e. moderate muslims.

back-up? this post must be coming out of an ignorant head!!

 

[Alaa]

Originally posted by: ahurtt
Your screen name is similar to the name of God! Or at least it reminds me of it a little. You are a blasphemer and and infidel! Off with your head! AAAAAaayyyyyyaaaaalallalalalalaalalalalaala!!!!!

This is my name and it is totally different than what you think of it!