Can hard work overcome limitations in intelligence?

[Muse]

curious why ATOT thinks brain surgery requires the level of intelligence implied in this thread. Yes you have to know the brain's anatomy in pretty vivid detail, but there's not a lot of off-the-cuff problem solving and snap decision making. you work with a more or less known structure and known procedures every day.

"tumor is here, we're going in through the rectum; don't nick the hypothalamus"

There's a great deal of difference between being a ho hum brain surgeon and a truly competent one. Competence at brain surgery (and a lot of other kinds of surgery), at times anyway, requires a high level of intelligence, imagination and problem solving ability, also dexterity and the willingness and ability to work hard.

 

[Bateluer]

This thread reeks of ATOT elitism.

 

[BoomerD]

Originally Posted by jteef
curious why ATOT thinks brain surgery requires the level of intelligence implied in this thread. Yes you have to know the brain's anatomy in pretty vivid detail, but there's not a lot of off-the-cuff problem solving and snap decision making. you work with a more or less known structure and known procedures every day.

"tumor is here, we're going in through the rectum; don't nick the hypothalamus"

There's a great deal of difference between being a ho hum brain surgeon and a truly competent one. Competence at brain surgery (and a lot of other kinds of surgery), at times anyway, requires a high level of intelligence, imagination and problem solving ability, also dexterity and the willingness and ability to work hard.

My knee surgeon (ortho) told me at our first meeting, "Doctors are a goofy bunch of bastards. Anyone can become a doctor. All you have to do is memorize 20,000 things. It takes talent to become a surgeon."

🙄

I told him I agree that doctors were a bunch of goofy bastards...and that I hadn't made up my mind about him yet.

😛

 

[Mo0o]

No. Because once you get to the very upper echelons of any highly competitive or abstract field, you will require both high intelligence and high work ethic. If you only have one then you can not compete. Even in medicine, plenty of people want the high respected, well-paying jobs but not everyoen can get them and the dumber kids get crowded out by the smarter ones that are willing to work just as hard.

No matter how many hours a day I study I will never be able to put forth advances in physics like Stephen Hawking does.

 

[BoomerD]

No. Because once you get to the very upper echelons of any highly competitive or abstract field, you will require both high intelligence and high work ethic. If you only have one then you can not compete. Even in medicine, plenty of people want the high respected, well-paying jobs but not everyoen can get them and the dumber kids get crowded out by the smarter ones that are willing to work just as hard.

No matter how many hours a day I study I will never be able to put forth advances in physics like Stephen Hawking does.

What do you call the guy who finished dead last in his class at medical school?

Doctor.

(not very reassuring, is it?)

 

[Mo0o]

What do you call the guy who finished dead last in his class at medical school?

Doctor.

(not very reassuring, is it?)

Seems ok to me. There are reasonable entrance requirements to get into med school and there are national guidelines for baseline competence that everyone has to meet or risk expulsion. Plus you can not actually treat patients until you finish at least your internship at an accredited residency program (which you have to apply and be accepted into based on your grades). There's going to be gaps in competence between the bets and worst med students but theres always a bottom floor that most will not go below.

 

[khon]

Could you be a lawyer or brain surgeon with average intelligence and hard work ? Yeah, you probably could.

There are some jobs you couldn't do though, no matter how much work you put in, like say theoretical physicist.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

The truth is that there are a variety of minds and thus a veriety of intelegrnces.

My research has found three basic kinds of mind, one that is very visual, one that is good at theory and one that is focused on data retention. We all have some aspects of these minds to soe degree or other. My research has found that there are slow people, BUT those people are the ones that have rarely exercised the portion of their brain for which they are strongest.

This means that the genetic correlation between gnenral intelligence is actualy a function of gran environment correlation.


I for example (and many programers and music theorists like me) can understand the most abstract concepts/theories and manipulate them like gears in our minds. Similarly, I am so poor at visual thinking that I get lost quickly in a mall and never know where anything I put down is.

Since the tested portions of verbal and mathematical abilities tend to be theoretical I am in the top 7k(out of 700k) of graduate school interested test takers this year. But because I can't draw a strait line with a ruler I could never be a sergion of any kind... I don't have the intelligence. I am also dyslexic, so although can write some stunning stuff if I use a word processor and work at it, I must deal with the impulse control issues that are innate to a paternal lineage has a long history of using substances to dull the pain of extreme intelligence and poor expressive ability with alcohol.

Only the ability to practice writing on this forum and a life long dedication to not buying liqueur has kept me from being just another know it all drunk like my dad, his dad and so on. The point being that there are many traits that an individual possesses that can scuttle his or her career advancement, and a certain percent of the population still has to fill those jobs.

 

[Mr. Pedantic]

What do you call the guy who finished dead last in his class at medical school?

Doctor.

(not very reassuring, is it?)

I don't know why Americans have this obsession with having the absolute best of everything. There are obviously different levels of competency between doctors, but heart failure is heart failure. The drugs used to treat it are going to be the same, whether you go to the foremost heart specialist or some ostracized GP in the middle of nowhere. Same with diabetes, hypertension, etc.

And many medical schools no longer place students. It's either a pass or a fail; it's partly to promote a more relaxed and communicable atmosphere where people help each other out after the relatively cut-throat pre-med year(s), but also to prevent this kind of thing where people go to only the top-placing medical students because they have a mentality of 'I will only settle for the best'.

 

[the DRIZZLE]

Although there are some truly genuinely stupid people out there. But relatively few; most folks are within one standard deviation of the peak on the bell curve.

That's just the definition of a normal distribution, it doesn't say anything about the practical difference in intelligence that corresponds to one standard deviation.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

That's just the definition of a normal distribution, it doesn't say anything about the practical difference in intelligence that corresponds to one standard deviation.

IQ shifts every year, over the decades an average IQ 100 has required more and more intellectual capability. I would argue that people at about 85, though slack jawed, are more than capable of doing most jobs that might have required a 100 sixty years ago (electrician, plumber etc).

see the Flynn effect

Maybe a better question than "can" is "do".

So only doctors have the bottom 10th percentile that isn't at or below 100.

 

[Rumpltzer]

You don't need to be brilliant to get far in life and career. I'm not saying you can get away with it as a complete moron (although I've seen examples suggesting otherwise).

I think that hard work and common sense gets you far. In fact, I think that common sense is probably the most important aspect in one's success.

 

[zinfamous]

NOTES is the future:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_orifice_translumenal_endoscopic_surgery

It's one of the things I'm working on. Not to say that that particular orifice would be the best in this situation... 😉

well, yes. that was my point. 😀

 

[Anubis]

Could you be a lawyer or brain surgeon with average intelligence and hard work ? Yeah, you probably could.

There are some jobs you couldn't do though, no matter how much work you put in, like say theoretical physicist.

I agree with this posting. lots of things can be done with average intelligence and hard work. some can not. its not a simple yes/no

 

[DrPizza]

IQ shifts every year, over the decades an average IQ 100 has required more and more intellectual capability. I would argue that people at about 85, though slack jawed, are more than capable of doing most jobs that might have required a 100 sixty years ago (electrician, plumber etc).

see the Flynn effect

Maybe a better question than "can" is "do".

So only doctors have the bottom 10th percentile that isn't at or below 100.

I'm thinking that you're underestimating the amount of knowledge that electricians have. Or perhaps, you think that household wiring is what electricians do. With advances in computer controls, etc., being an electrician requires a lot more specialized knowledge than ever before.

Edit: also, how the hell is this thread going? It was answered, quite succinctly I may add, on the first reply.

 

[TridenT]

I'm thinking that you're underestimating the amount of knowledge that electricians have. Or perhaps, you think that household wiring is what electricians do. With advances in computer controls, etc., being an electrician requires a lot more specialized knowledge than ever before.

Edit: also, how the hell is this thread going? It was answered, quite succinctly I may add, on the first reply.

They ignore your answer and look for something to argue with.

 

[Albatross]

Rocket Scientist>Brain Surgeon, doubtful. :awe:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THNPmhBl-8I

 

[Gigantopithecus]

This thread reeks of ATOT elitism.

I was thinking more of the problems I regularly encounter that I am reasonably confident of my inability to solve regardless of how hard I work at them, and less of what I know I can do. I wouldn't call that elitism.

 

[Minjin]

I think we need to have a thread on the growing trend of anti-intellectualism and the dangers it holds.

 

[PingSpike]

You could build the space shuttle with nothing but a large gang of chimps, if you whipped them hard enough.

 

[alkemyst]

remember when as a kid you were told you can be anything you want to be? that's a fallacy right along with the easter bunny. :sneaky:

not if you get your parents to sue someone for you.

In reality, I think most think they are worth more than they are and in the end still overpaid.

 

[Mr. Pedantic]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THNPmhBl-8I

That guy is insufferable and unlike any doctor I have ever met. Putting those two aside, though, I would still rather be a surgeon than a rocket scientist.

 

[Minjin]

That guy is insufferable and unlike any doctor I have ever met. Putting those two aside, though, I would still rather be a surgeon than a rocket scientist.

You'd rather be an overeducated combination of a seamstress and a butcher? Not exactly rocket science...

 

[vi edit]

I play basketball with a couple cardiac surgeons and a few trauma surgeons and a thoracic one. If there's any one overwhelming personality trait among them it's a swagger. These guys are fearless, brutally competitive and confident...kind of like fighter pilots of the Medical World.

I don't think they get where they are...and succeed by function of intelligence. It's more of an extension of their personality.

 

[gophins72]

regarding OP, Yes for most people, no for all people.