manimal
Lifer
- Mar 30, 2007
- 13,559
- 8
- 0
Its easy for you talk about someone else's pension, or someone else's medicaid....
Its easy for you talk about someone else's pension, or someone else's medicaid....
manimal
Lifer
- Mar 30, 2007
- 13,559
- 8
- 0
I was emulating your style but with more substance. This type of argument is always based on someone else's suffering or someone else's sacrifice. Its the same as the tea party and war hawk rhetoric about smaller government but the three single largest parts of the federal budget are off limits since they like their medicare, SS and their wars....
Now I am not calling you a tea partier at all info...I am just saying that its always easier to take something away from someone else instead of you...
Yep, nicely put Manimal.
Never mind the moral reasons not to cut pensions, but it simply is not possible for the governor to do that unless CA declares bankrupcy.
Never mind the moral reasons not to cut pensions, but it simply is not possible for the governor to do that unless CA declares bankrupcy.
Budget cuts in all the wrong places.
He's still sacrificing the future to pay for the past.
That's not a promising outlook, any way you spin it.
California is fucked, and this clown is only going to make things worse.
Selling out education to pay for illegals to have babies and get welfare?
Not forcing citizenship as a requirement on public education?
Not abolishing the EBT system?
There are lots of fucking examples. All one has to do is drive around for 20 minutes in California to know how fucked we really are and have been. Yes, Arnie was a Republican, but he sure as shit wasn't a conservative, and a lot of the problems were not fixed by him either.
I don't know whether or not Whitman would have been any more conservative, but at least it would have been someone we don't know. Brown nearly ran CA into the ground last time, and he DID run Oakland into the ground. I think that track record is more than enough to prove that nothing positive will come from his governorship.
California used to be the 5th largest economy in the WORLD. Now we can't even pay to send our kids to fucking school. Yet every illegal and white trash lazy piece of shit gets $600/mo in cash on their EBT card and another $500/mo in rent allowance.
That is not a recipe for success.
Throckmorton
Lifer
- Aug 23, 2007
- 16,829
- 3
- 0
I keep hearing this crap that Arnold is a RINO, he's not a conservative, yet all of you righties couldn't wait to vote for him-twice. He is a Republican and a failure.
You are free to move to a state that suits you better, I hear Arizona is nice.
Red Dawn
Elite Member
- Jun 4, 2001
- 57,529
- 3
- 0
Yeah major cuts that are needed. And the idiots who said only non Union Gov workers are going to take a pay cut, maybe next time you might want to read the article before postinmg. All union Workers not under contract will take a 10% pay cut. He's legally obligated to pay the Union Workers under contract. I can assure you that when those contracts expire they'll be taking a hit or at least he'll be telling them too.
He'll probably be a one term Governor because the Republicans wont vote for him no matter what he does and a lot on the left wont vote for him because he's making a lot of cuts on social programs. Knowing Brown he probably figured this when he ran and only ran to get the job done properly. It's what that state needs, someone to be Governor who's not worried about getting re-elected.
Thump553
Lifer
- Jun 2, 2000
- 12,839
- 2,625
- 136
Several times in this thread people have claimed CA can file bankruptcy. THAT IS NOT TRUE. Bankruptcy is a statutory procedure, not a right. You must fit within the statutory scheme for it to be applicable. Who may be a debtor under the various chapters of the Bankruptcy Code is set forth in 11 USC 109, and the closest relevant section is for Chapter 9, municipalities in 11 USC 109(c):
* * *
(c) An entity may be a debtor under chapter 9 of this title if and only if such entity
(1) is a municipality;
(2) is specifically authorized, in its capacity as a municipality or by name, to be a debtor under such chapter by State law, or by a governmental officer or organization empowered by State law to authorize such entity to be a debtor under such chapter;
* * *
"Municipality" is specifically defined at 11 USC 101(40):
* * *
40) The term "municipality" means political subdivision or public agency or instrumentality of a State.
* * *
"State" is seperately defined at 11 USC 101(52):
* * *
52) The term "State" includes the District of Columbia and Puerto Rico, except for the purpose of defining who may be a debtor under chapter 9 of this title.
* * *
It is crystal clear that the bankruptcy mechanism is not available to States. If anyone disagrees I challenge them to post a citation to any court opinion to the contrary, or even some legit legal scholar.
People grossly oversimplify and mischaracterize the law and assume the state can set aside existing pension obligations. In most cases that is not true and would be a violation of existing specific federal laws. Future pension obligations for current and future workers can be modified under the right circumstances, but that is not my understanding of what the OP is complaining about.
<--- doesn't live in CA and has no horse in this race
* * *
(c) An entity may be a debtor under chapter 9 of this title if and only if such entity
(1) is a municipality;
(2) is specifically authorized, in its capacity as a municipality or by name, to be a debtor under such chapter by State law, or by a governmental officer or organization empowered by State law to authorize such entity to be a debtor under such chapter;
* * *
"Municipality" is specifically defined at 11 USC 101(40):
* * *
40) The term "municipality" means political subdivision or public agency or instrumentality of a State.
* * *
"State" is seperately defined at 11 USC 101(52):
* * *
52) The term "State" includes the District of Columbia and Puerto Rico, except for the purpose of defining who may be a debtor under chapter 9 of this title.
* * *
It is crystal clear that the bankruptcy mechanism is not available to States. If anyone disagrees I challenge them to post a citation to any court opinion to the contrary, or even some legit legal scholar.
People grossly oversimplify and mischaracterize the law and assume the state can set aside existing pension obligations. In most cases that is not true and would be a violation of existing specific federal laws. Future pension obligations for current and future workers can be modified under the right circumstances, but that is not my understanding of what the OP is complaining about.
<--- doesn't live in CA and has no horse in this race
It's always been my understanding that pension obligations were written in stone, but that doesn't change the fact that the system is unsustainable.
I'm one of the idiots Red, mark my words, union employee pay won't be cut, prop 13 will come under attack first. This is Jerry Brown we're talking about, he's never seen a tax he didn't like.
Red Dawn
Elite Member
- Jun 4, 2001
- 57,529
- 3
- 0
hal2kilo
Lifer
- Feb 24, 2009
- 26,585
- 12,685
- 136
This. Pensions are promises made many times in lieu of competative pay in the private workforce.
Tax cutters always try to fuck pensioners.
trenchfoot
Lifer
- Aug 5, 2000
- 16,143
- 8,740
- 136
Absolutely correct. In every Contract negotiations that I've been involved with, Management negotiators have always been more partial to agree to increases in pension rather than increases in pay....Unions too, for that matter.
The reasons are many, but most have to do with avoiding all the benefit increases that directly correlate with pay increases on Management's part, and the increase of funds to the Union coffers via increased pension contributions from Management on the Union's part (if applicable).
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PingSpike
Lifer
- Feb 25, 2004
- 21,765
- 615
- 126
The moral thing to do would have been to not ever promise pensions that you had neither the ability or desire to pay out, but since its the taxpayers stuck with the crappy contract its not a surprise politicians did what was politically expedient. Of course, the taxpayers never gave a shit either or else they would have held their feet to the fire.
As mentioned, the pensions are a huge part of the compensation package and a very valuable one at that. Politicians basically traded a massive ongoing financial obligation for a 20% off coupon right now. Anyone who planned even 10 years down the road wouldn't make that trade, but politicians don't really do the long term thing. They want to get elected next go around and voters are very "what-have-you-done-for-me-lately?" in their behavior. By the time the negative effects really show up (and you can hide them for longer using accounting magic and just underfunding them) you've probably retired or can blame some one else for the problem. No one gets elected that will confront the problem because voters don't want them too. Not really anyway.
The whole country currently runs on this premise. We'll just hold the sham together until we get ours and die, and then who cares? Fuck the next generation.
As mentioned, the pensions are a huge part of the compensation package and a very valuable one at that. Politicians basically traded a massive ongoing financial obligation for a 20% off coupon right now. Anyone who planned even 10 years down the road wouldn't make that trade, but politicians don't really do the long term thing. They want to get elected next go around and voters are very "what-have-you-done-for-me-lately?" in their behavior. By the time the negative effects really show up (and you can hide them for longer using accounting magic and just underfunding them) you've probably retired or can blame some one else for the problem. No one gets elected that will confront the problem because voters don't want them too. Not really anyway.
The whole country currently runs on this premise. We'll just hold the sham together until we get ours and die, and then who cares? Fuck the next generation.
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Slew Foot
Lifer
- Sep 22, 2005
- 12,379
- 96
- 86
Dam Straight. No politician ever planned on fully funding any one of the pyramid schemes. They just wanted to die or hit their term limit before the cards fell.
Zstream
Diamond Member
- Oct 24, 2005
- 3,395
- 277
- 136
Red Dawn
Elite Member
- Jun 4, 2001
- 57,529
- 3
- 0
Well it was the Devil they knew instead of the Devil they didn't. The Unions aren't going to be happy with jerry when it comes time for Contract takes.
That harpy Meg Whitman probably wouldn't have had the courage to make the cuts needed.
OrByte
Diamond Member
- Jul 21, 2000
- 9,303
- 144
- 106
This could very well be Brown's last office. The man is in his early 70s.
I don't know how "beholden" he is to Unions, unless Unions are going to be "backing" him in his bid to become elected the chairperson for BINGO events at his convalescent home too.
Jerry Brown is pissing off both the left and right. To me, that means he is doing the job that no one wanted to do.
I don't know how "beholden" he is to Unions, unless Unions are going to be "backing" him in his bid to become elected the chairperson for BINGO events at his convalescent home too.
Jerry Brown is pissing off both the left and right. To me, that means he is doing the job that no one wanted to do.
Jaskalas
Lifer
- Jun 23, 2004
- 36,464
- 10,742
- 136
They have absolutely no choice. CA's budget is one of the most ruinous disasters in the world.
What I think is people who have 401ks or retirement savings in any institution should just lose them as those places shouldn't pay out any money even though you paid into it and that money should be used to balance the budgets of local state and the federal government.
Red Dawn
Elite Member
- Jun 4, 2001
- 57,529
- 3
- 0
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