California's New Governor Doesn't Touch Pensions in Big Budget Cuts

[PokerGuy]

You can't close the deficit when the radical Republicans have a veto on the budget they abuse and a 'zero new taxes' fanaticism, and prop 13 in place.

Here's a shocking thought: reducing spending! I know, it's preposterous to think that someone who doesn't have any more money should quit writing checks, but some crazies actually think you should balance your income and spending in the long term.

 

[olds]

Here's a shocking thought: reducing spending! I know, it's preposterous to think that someone who doesn't have any more money should quit writing checks, but some crazies actually think you should balance your income and spending in the long term.

This is why people (not me) has a problem with cutting services.
Who gets those services? Poor people (including illegal immigrants), students and people with medical/physical issues. Other people see it as heartless to cut their services.

 

[EagleKeeper]

This is why people (not me) has a problem with cutting services.
Who gets those services? Poor people (including illegal immigrants), students and people with medical/physical issues. Other people see it as heartless to cut their services.

Services were added without figuring out the funding source.

Now that there is no more extra funding; remove the services.

Heartless, but needed. The system worked before the added services. If they are so critical, then the private sector can step up.

 

[Trianon]

This is why people (not me) has a problem with cutting services.
Who gets those services? Poor people (including illegal immigrants), students and people with medical/physical issues. Other people see it as heartless to cut their services.

Really??? Poor people use all of these:

Does the state need a ....


•Acupuncture Department
•Office of AIDs
•Air Research Board
•3 different agencies for alcohol and beverages
•2 Apprenticeship Councils
•Art Council
•Asian Pacific Islander Legislative Caucus
•Bureau of Automotive repair
•Barbering board
•Biodiversity council
•Calvet Loan program
•Climate Change Portal
•Coastal Commission
•Cool California
•4 Delta agencies
•Digital Library
•Bureau of Electronic and Appliance Repair
•Employment Training Panel
•Energy Commission
•Equalization Board
•2 Fair Employment agencies
•Film Commission
•Flex Your Power
•Healthy Family Program
•Hearing Aid Dispensers Bureau
•Home Furnishings Bureau
•Humanities Council
•Independent Living Council
•Indoor Air Quality Program
•Economic Development Bank
•Interagency Ecological Program
•Labor and Workforce Development
•Latino Legislative Caucus
•Learn California
•Little Hoover Commission
•Maritime Academy
•Managed Risk Board
•Museum for History
•MyCali Youth Portal
•Native Heritage Association
•Natural Community Planning Program
•Naturopathic Medicine Community
•Outreach
•Peace Officer Standards Board
•Postsecondary Education Commission
•Prison Industry Authority
•Privacy Protection Office
•Psychology Board
•Railroad Museum
•Recovery Task Force
•Refugee Branch
•Regents of the U of C
•Save Our Water commission
•Smart Growth Caucus
•Status of Women Commission
•Take Charge California
•We Connect
•Wetlands Information System
•Workforce Investment Board

 

[olds]

Services werw added without figuring out the funding source.

Now that therre is no more extra funding; remove the services.

Heartless, but needed. The system worked before the added services. If they are so critical, then the private sector can step up.

I agree. I always vote no on the propositions. No matter what they are. They never identify funding.

Really??? Poor people use all of these:

Does the state need a ....


•Acupuncture Department
•Office of AIDs
•Air Research Board
•3 different agencies for alcohol and beverages
•2 Apprenticeship Councils
•Art Council
•Asian Pacific Islander Legislative Caucus
•Bureau of Automotive repair
•Barbering board
•Biodiversity council
•Calvet Loan program
•Climate Change Portal
•Coastal Commission
•Cool California
•4 Delta agencies
•Digital Library
•Bureau of Electronic and Appliance Repair
•Employment Training Panel
•Energy Commission
•Equalization Board
•2 Fair Employment agencies
•Film Commission
•Flex Your Power
•Healthy Family Program
•Hearing Aid Dispensers Bureau
•Home Furnishings Bureau
•Humanities Council
•Independent Living Council
•Indoor Air Quality Program
•Economic Development Bank
•Interagency Ecological Program
•Labor and Workforce Development
•Latino Legislative Caucus
•Learn California
•Little Hoover Commission
•Maritime Academy
•Managed Risk Board
•Museum for History
•MyCali Youth Portal
•Native Heritage Association
•Natural Community Planning Program
•Naturopathic Medicine Community
•Outreach
•Peace Officer Standards Board
•Postsecondary Education Commission
•Prison Industry Authority
•Privacy Protection Office
•Psychology Board
•Railroad Museum
•Recovery Task Force
•Refugee Branch
•Regents of the U of C
•Save Our Water commission
•Smart Growth Caucus
•Status of Women Commission
•Take Charge California
•We Connect
•Wetlands Information System
•Workforce Investment Board

I concur. We need to cut out redundant boards/agencies as well as cutting services.

 

[Craig234]

I do understand that, and as you mentioned I was living in the heart of OC at the time. I have a problem with the whole proposition process which IIRC started in California. It would not be needed if people participation in their local politics and held their legislators feet to the fire.

The proposition process was begun by progressives as a way to give the people the power to override the corrupt legislature.

Unfortunately, it's become a way for corrupt interests to buy the law and override the legislature when it does the right thing, much of the time.

 

[Throckmorton]

I am really curious as to why you would call me rich as it is not something that I am accused of very often. Furthermore, I am not advocating theft, I am simply pointing out the reality of the math. Promises were made that couldn't be kept and it wasn't a secret that they couldn't be kept when they were made.

So the contractually required pension was a promise that couldn't be kept and therefore the state shouldn't have to pay it? Well what about tax rates? Why isn't the previous tax rate a promise that just couldn't be kept because taxes have to be raised? Oh right, because a certain tax rate was never promised to exist forever!

The state's legislators and executive, elected by the people, owe pensioners their pensions. The people therefore have to pay. They can't just say "we don't have the money, fuck you". They do have the money. Californians aren't going to starve their kids by paying for previously agreed to pensions.

 

[Trianon]

So the contractually required pension was a promise that couldn't be kept and therefore the state shouldn't have to pay it? Well what about tax rates? Why isn't the previous tax rate a promise that just couldn't be kept because taxes have to be raised? Oh right, because a certain tax rate was never promised to exist forever!

The state's legislators and executive, elected by the people, owe pensioners their pensions. The people therefore have to pay. They can't just say "we don't have the money, fuck you". They do have the money. Californians aren't going to starve their kids by paying for previously agreed to pensions.

What if legislators ("executives") misrepresented people's will, no way to undo bad deals??? no recourse?

 

[Pneumothorax]

Yup as soon as Moonbeam rescinds Prop 13 and doubles my $9,000 a year property tax to $18,000. I'll make sure to mail in my keys to my bank mortgage lender, foreclose, and give a big FU to the California State Government and take the $40,000+ a year we pay in state taxes (excluding sales taxes) to somewhere else.

 

[olds]

Yup as soon as Moonbeam rescinds Prop 13 and doubles my $9,000 a year property tax to $18,000. I'll make sure to mail in my keys to my bank mortgage lender, foreclose, and give a big FU to the California State Government and take the $40,000+ a year we pay in state taxes (excluding sales taxes) to somewhere else.

When I retire with my big, fat state pension, I am taking it to South Dakota.

 

[Throckmorton]

What if legislators ("executives") misrepresented people's will, no way to undo bad deals??? no recourse?

I'm sure there's a way for them to just not pay what they owe. To me that's just plain wrong.

Californians bear responsibility for electing those big spending liberals in the first place. Now conservatives are advocating not fulfilling their obligations. It's like we live in oppositeland.

 

[werepossum]

I'm sure there's a way for them to just not pay what they owe. To me that's just plain wrong.

Californians bear responsibility for electing those big spending liberals in the first place. Now conservatives are advocating not fulfilling their obligations. It's like we live in oppositeland.

I agree, as long as California CAN pay what it promised it SHOULD pay what it promised.

 

[Throckmorton]

I agree, as long as California CAN pay what it promised it SHOULD pay what it promised.

They can always pay. All it takes is a tax increase... which they should have to pay for since they're responsible for their government's spending.

 

[sactoking]

Technically they can't pay if they can't pass a budget. That's what we saw in 2009 when the state was sending IOUs to businesses and just shafting every citizen they owed money to.

 

[olds]

Technically they can't pay if they can't pass a budget. That's what we saw in 2009 when the state was sending IOUs to businesses and just shafting every citizen they owed money to.

They still have to make payroll.

 

[Trianon]

I'm sure there's a way for them to just not pay what they owe. To me that's just plain wrong.

Californians bear responsibility for electing those big spending liberals in the first place. Now conservatives are advocating not fulfilling their obligations. It's like we live in oppositeland.

I believe bankruptcy option should be always available. Crappy deals are just that, crappy deals. maybe somebody promised rainbows and unicorns, doesn't mean that there is 100% chance they will deliver.

 

[Darwin333]

So the contractually required pension was a promise that couldn't be kept and therefore the state shouldn't have to pay it?

I have never said they shouldn't have to pay it. I am simply commenting on their ability to pay it, you do understand the difference right? It is kind of like Bernie Maddof, he made contractual agreements that he knew he could not keep at the time but he was able to make people believe he could. Same thing happened here and in my opinion they are both fraud.

The pension fund depended on an 8%, risk free, year over year growth pretty much forever in order to meet its obligations. Gee, that sounds realistic to me, how about you? To make matters worse the banksters probably fucked the fund real good with those can't possibly lose money on MBS investments.

The unions aren't blameless either. I read that not long ago they proposed using the same accounting rules for public pensions as corporate pensions are forced to use (basically use realistic return rates in their calculations) and the unions resisted. The reason? Their members would have to contribute more towards their pensions. Instead of doing that they kept basing future payouts on insanely unrealistic return rates on their investments. That fuzzy accounting also led them to take more risk with the investments which I would bet had a part in the pension fund losing so much money in the last few years.

Eventually the math always wins.

Well what about tax rates?

Give it a shot but I highly doubt Cali can come remotely close to raising enough money to cover its obligations and the problem gets worse every year.

Why isn't the previous tax rate a promise that just couldn't be kept because taxes have to be raised?

It isn't.

Actually, the pension debt has priority over state bonds if I am not mistaken. Do you think bond holders should get hosed before people owed pensions? What about contractors working for the state, should their employees that are currently working not receive a paycheck so that someone else gets a pension check? What would you do if faced with those choices? Hose the entire state for the foreseeable future or fuck people with pensions? You do understand the implications of hosing the bondholders don't you?

The state's legislators and executive, elected by the people, owe pensioners their pensions. The people therefore have to pay. They can't just say "we don't have the money, fuck you". They do have the money. Californians aren't going to starve their kids by paying for previously agreed to pensions.

Like I said, give it a shot and I wish you the best of luck. Unfortunately for Cali, it is a state and not a country. The "people" and businesses can simply move and be relieved of whatever they supposedly owe. My state has already picked up a good bit of business from Cali due to our taxes being better and I sure wouldn't mind picking up some more. You simply can't raise the kind of money required either by borrowing or raising revenue but you can definitely kick the can a few more years.

 

[Darwin333]

They can always pay. All it takes is a tax increase... which they should have to pay for since they're responsible for their government's spending.

Since the problem will compound as time goes on any tax increase will be a temporary stop gap measure or what I like to call kicking the can.

Are you truly in favor of harming Cali's long term health for the sole reason of paying pensions for a few more years? We are talking about a $500B problem here not something that can be fixed with a small tax hike.

The math always wins in the end.

 

[sactoking]

They still have to make payroll.

Weren't they not paying employees then either?

 

[olds]

Weren't they not paying employees then either?

Nope. Pete Wilson tried tried that around '92. He gave out IOUs. He lost in court and it was ruled that the state had to make payroll. Some offices don't get paid. IIRC, it the constitutional offices.

BTW, in case anyone is curious why the pension obligation is $500 million, it's because arnie decided to not pay it during the robust years. He assumed the economy would always be good so he let it ride. He gambled with taxpayer dollars and lost.

 

[PingSpike]

Arnie is in good company with that strategy. I believe it the system all pension programs at all levels of government are based on.

I thought California did that IOU thing again two years ago or something. I seem to remember making a joke you should mail the IOUs as tax payment to the government offices.

 

[bfdd]

They can always pay. All it takes is a tax increase... which they should have to pay for since they're responsible for their government's spending.

I didn't vote for these idiots and I have thought their pensions were bullshit and some have been trying to fight it for years to no avail. Now we have a chance to and you're like "no don't take that chance cause you might hurt someones feelings" yeah well fuck them, they're going to hurt my bottom line by taxing me more to pay for these fucks retirements. screw those guys.

 

[her209]

Weren't they not paying employees then either?

http://www.sco.ca.gov/eo_news_registeredwarrants.html

The State Constitution, federal law and court orders protect education, debt service, state payroll, pensions, In-Home Supportive Services and Medi-Cal providers. In July, those payments will be made with regular, or “normal,” warrants.

 

[Infohawk]

http://www.sco.ca.gov/eo_news_registeredwarrants.html

That's all true but people are acting like the courts are the end of the story. The other branches can force the judicial system's hand if there's enough willpower. (Look at New Deal legislation.) If there were willpower, there would not be enough funding to pay out pensions. The courts can't force higher taxes.

As it right now we just have a situation where pension payouts takes precedence over education, infrastructure and other truly critical government functions. But liberals have nothing to worry about as the majority of the population (and liberal baby-boomers) are happy to sell out younger and future generations so that they can retire comfortably.

 

[Red Dawn]

That's all true but people are acting like the courts are the end of the story. The other branches can force the judicial system's hand if there's enough willpower. (Look at New Deal legislation.) If there were willpower, there would not be enough funding to pay out pensions. The courts can't force higher taxes.

As it right now we just have a situation where pension payouts takes precedence over education, infrastructure and other truly critical government functions. But liberals have nothing to worry about as the majority of the population (and liberal baby-boomers) are happy to sell out younger and future generations so that they can retire comfortably.

SO what do you think is going to happen to your and your childrens generation?