Californians -- Why live there if you are not wealthy or upper middle class?

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DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
1
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Having a transient population with a small amount of actual land only encourages speculators ripping the economic heart from a city.

We know what works here. I guess wherever you are must be better off then our terrible socialist den . Oops, this is one of the biggest economies here IN THE WORLD.

Oh well, haters will hate. Another whinefest thread about how insecure you all are compared to CA.

I smell Texans, 10 pounds of bullshit in a 1 pound sack. Typical behavior of our fellow "lone star state republic comrades". ;)

Bullshit.

http://www.nytimes.com/2000/06/07/opinion/reckonings-a-rent-affair.html

Reckonings; A Rent Affair
By PAUL KRUGMAN
Published: June 07, 2000
Economists who have ventured into the alleged real world often quote Princeton's Alan Blinder, who has formulated what he calls ''Murphy's Law of economic policy'': ''Economists have the least influence on policy where they know the most and are most agreed; they have the most influence on policy where they know the least and disagree most vehemently.'' It's flip and cynical, but it's true.

Consider, on one side, really tough issues -- where there are plausible arguments on both sides, where nobody really knows how to measure the tradeoffs. Should Microsoft be broken up and, if so, how? Should Britain adopt the euro? Let's ask the economists! And those economists who are prepared to express strong opinions on such inherently ambiguous questions command rapt attention.

On the other side, consider an article that appeared in yesterday's New York Times, ''In San Francisco, Renters Are Supplicants.'' It was an interesting piece, with its tales of would-be renters spending months pounding the pavements, of dozens of desperate applicants arriving at a newly offered apartment, trying to impress the landlord with their credentials. And yet there was something crucial missing -- specifically, two words I knew had to be part of the story.


Not that I have any special knowledge about San Francisco's housing market -- in fact, as of yesterday morning I didn't know a thing about it. But it was immediately obvious from the story what was going on. To an economist, or for that matter a freshman who has taken Economics 101, everything about that story fairly screamed those two words -- which are, of course, ''rent control.''

After all, the sort of landlord behavior described in the article -- demanding that prospective tenants supply resumes and credit reports, that they dress nicely and act enthusiastic -- doesn't happen in uncontrolled housing markets. Landlords don't want groveling -- they would rather have money. In uncontrolled markets the question of who gets an apartment is settled quickly by the question of who is able and willing to pay the most. And so I had no doubts about what I would find after a bit of checking -- namely, that San Francisco is a city where a technology-fueled housing boom has collided with a draconian rent-control law.

The analysis of rent control is among the best-understood issues in all of economics, and -- among economists, anyway -- one of the least controversial. In 1992 a poll of the American Economic Association found 93 percent of its members agreeing that ''a ceiling on rents reduces the quality and quantity of housing.'' Almost every freshman-level textbook contains a case study on rent control, using its known adverse side effects to illustrate the principles of supply and demand. Sky-high rents on uncontrolled apartments, because desperate renters have nowhere to go -- and the absence of new apartment construction, despite those high rents, because landlords fear that controls will be extended? Predictable. Bitter relations between tenants and landlords, with an arms race between ever-more ingenious strategies to force tenants out -- what yesterday's article oddly described as ''free-market horror stories'' -- and constantly proliferating regulations designed to block those strategies? Predictable.

And as for the way rent control sets people against one another -- the executive director of San Francisco's Rent Stabilization and Arbitration Board has remarked that ''there doesn't seem to be anyone in this town who can trust anyone else in this town, including their own grandparents'' -- that's predictable, too.

None of this says that ending rent control is an easy decision. Still, surely it is worth knowing that the pathologies of San Francisco's housing market are right out of the textbook, that they are exactly what supply-and-demand analysis predicts.

But people literally don't want to know. A few months ago, when a San Francisco official proposed a study of the city's housing crisis, there was a firestorm of opposition from tenant-advocacy groups. They argued that even to study the situation was a step on the road to ending rent control -- and they may well have been right, because studying the issue might lead to a recognition of the obvious.

So now you know why economists are useless: when they actually do understand something, people don't want to hear about it.
 
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Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
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It's called being a elitist and snobby prick and these types often believe they know what the "TRUE" path is in life for everyone else. We have a lot of those in CA and especially SF sadly.

I have no "true" path to offer, but I grow tired of willful ignorance and douches with undeserved chips on their shoulders. That's all.

If you can't hang with CA, then feel free to haul ass or never come here if it's so bad.

As someone whose lived all over this stuff is pretty petty jealousy trollbait.

Have some worms comrade. ;)
 
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berzerker60

Golden Member
Jul 18, 2012
1,233
1
0
It's called being a elitist and snobby prick and these types often believe they know what the "TRUE" path is in life for everyone else. We have a lot of those in CA and especially SF sadly.

Or just having some fun with meaningless petty tribalism on a message board. There's no shortage of "city folk are elitist snobby pricks and welfare queens" types around though, so let's not pretend like it's one-sided.

Seriously, living away from cities is great for what it is, but you'd better have an established social circle or a good way to grow one, because it's a real bitch to meet people the time I've lived in more rural areas. Even worse odds on meeting the right woman, at least if you're not willing to settle ('being realistic' might be a nicer way of putting it, but I'm not quite there yet). Obviously not everyone can or should live in cities. It would be environmentally ideal to have the vast majority in cities and the countryside more lightly populated though, so we don't have the sort of East Coast sprawl we have now with identical mini-malls and awful traffic everywhere.
 

IGBT

Lifer
Jul 16, 2001
17,974
140
106
Having a transient population with a small amount of actual land only encourages speculators ripping the economic heart from a city.

We know what works here. I guess wherever you are must be better off then our terrible socialist den . Oops, this is one of the biggest economies here IN THE WORLD.

Oh well, haters will hate. Another whinefest thread about how insecure you all are compared to CA.

I smell Texans, 10 pounds of bullshit in a 1 pound sack. Typical behavior of our fellow "lone star republic" comrades.

All I got to say to Texan haterism.....we got a Bear -you just got a star and a few bars. ha ha! (oh yeah, and a bunch of Mexicans kicked your ass, until the USA bailed you out) You shouldn't of even been a Republic. ;)


good for you!! I hope more of your stripe pile into wonderful and prosperous calif. it will have a cleansing effect on the rest of the country to have all the KOOKS on the west coast. Walk the Talk..will you??
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
Why someone thinks you have to live among millions of other people and tons of pollution to have a quality lifestyle is beyond me.

I hike and climb also, my question to you is why someone would want to drive and live that far out when you could just walk a few blocks over and do all that while having all the economic advantages of the city.

goldengatepark.jpg

LOW AND BEHOLD
It is called a park. And the whole center of the city pretty much IS one. Golden Gate Park to be specific. NYC has one also like this in size.

Right behind the pic is the beach. Oceans are fun also. ;)

We don't have too many pollution problems, (people don't drive much either) the SF Bay concentrates all the pacific wind through the mountains over us (which is why its always foggy from the afternoon on and the temp never really changes year 'round, always air conditioning weather, summer or winter) we also *gasp* regulate what we can. (we do have a refinery up the bay some though, and the east bay is a MESS) -but I live in the city, I go to NYC far more often then Oaktown.
 
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DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
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We have limited land, and no room for development. He should have just stopped there, the rest is irrelevant to the somewhat unique situation we have.

More bullshit again but it's amusing to see you try to discredit Paul Krugman, along with every other major economist in the US regardless of their political leanings.

As for your other claim. The city government with it's rental control and housing development policies are the biggest factors limiting housing prices and rent prices in the city. Developments for new housing and rental units have been drastically effected by these polices due to the "head-up-the-ass" approach with local city real-estate development polices within SF's local government. Policies which have basically steered development for housing into 2 areas:

Government subsidized housing (you could also call it developer subsidization) for welfare recipients.

High priced rental units and homes for the ub3r wealthy.

Both of these types of housing and rental unit developments are basically out of the reach of working class and middle class residents in SF.

The reality and fact is that housing and rental prices are artificially inflated and adversely effected in the City due to bone headed permitting processes and political shenanigans such as "Rent Control" which have contributed to the "Shortage" in "affordable" housing.
 
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DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
1
71
Or just having some fun with meaningless petty tribalism on a message board. There's no shortage of "city folk are elitist snobby pricks and welfare queens" types around though, so let's not pretend like it's one-sided.

Seriously, living away from cities is great for what it is, but you'd better have an established social circle or a good way to grow one, because it's a real bitch to meet people the time I've lived in more rural areas. Even worse odds on meeting the right woman, at least if you're not willing to settle ('being realistic' might be a nicer way of putting it, but I'm not quite there yet). Obviously not everyone can or should live in cities. It would be environmentally ideal to have the vast majority in cities and the countryside more lightly populated though, so we don't have the sort of East Coast sprawl we have now with identical mini-malls and awful traffic everywhere.

I'm not thrashing people who live in cities (I grew up in and still live in SF.) just assholes who look down on people solely based on where they live in this country. I agree that these types of assholes can be found in urban, suburban and rural areas and in almost every state in the union but in the end calling them elitist, snobby pricks, or assholes is not uncalled for because this is what they are in the end.
 
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Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
Or just having some fun with meaningless petty tribalism on a message board. There's no shortage of "city folk are elitist snobby pricks and welfare queens" types around though, so let's not pretend like it's one-sided.

Seriously, living away from cities is great for what it is, but you'd better have an established social circle or a good way to grow one, because it's a real bitch to meet people the time I've lived in more rural areas. Even worse odds on meeting the right woman, at least if you're not willing to settle ('being realistic' might be a nicer way of putting it, but I'm not quite there yet). Obviously not everyone can or should live in cities. It would be environmentally ideal to have the vast majority in cities and the countryside more lightly populated though, so we don't have the sort of East Coast sprawl we have now with identical mini-malls and awful traffic everywhere.

Come out sometime to my events, I got a beer as always for the AT peoples. Point you to a couple ladies.
I came here knowing almost no one with like 11 cents in my pocket off a greyhound ages ago. I know how it is.
 
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davmat787

Diamond Member
Nov 30, 2010
5,512
24
76
Having a transient population with a small amount of actual land only encourages speculators ripping the economic heart from a city.

We know what works here. I guess wherever you are must be better off then our terrible socialist den . Oops, this is one of the biggest economies here IN THE WORLD.

Oh well, haters will hate. Another whinefest thread about how insecure you all are compared to CA.

I smell Texans, 10 pounds of bullshit in a 1 pound sack. Typical behavior of our fellow "lone star republic" comrades.

All I got to say to Texan haterism.....we got a Bear -you just got a star and a few bars. ha ha! (oh yeah, and a bunch of Mexicans kicked your ass, until the USA bailed you out) You shouldn't of even been a Republic. ;)

Insecure and defensive much? How do you get all that from a rent control comment? And what happened to your notion that people are people, regardless of being from a big city or not? That lasted what... 3 posts? And you probably still can't figure out why some think your kind are elitist pricks. LOL.

Live and let live man. Let your hatred go. Sheesh, you seem to need others approval for your lifestyle and city, and if not given handily, they must be a Texan.

I have no hate for CA, other than when they moved up here to WA in droves.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
Insecure and defensive much? How do you get all that from a rent control comment? And what happened to your notion that people are people, regardless of being from a big city or not? That lasted what... 3 posts? And you probably still can't figure out why some think your kind are elitist pricks. LOL.

Live and let live man. Let your hatred go. Sheesh, you seem to need others approval for your lifestyle and city, and if not given handily, they must be a Texan.

I have no hate for CA, other than when they moved up here to WA in droves.

Ahh, the old Cascadian rivalry. I lived in PDX for awhile. Nocal and OR, WA are amazing.

Washington State Troopers were odd though, they actually made my buddy take avacado off his sandwich he was making at a rest stop.

Was kinda funny though. We did have CA plates and a old VW bus.

This was my first introduction to the whole silly northwest rivalry.

If Cascadia did break off ever, SF would make a fine capital. ;)
 
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Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
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More bullshit again but it's amusing to see you try to discredit Paul Krugman, along with every other major economist in the US regardless of their political leanings.

I am no fan of the bourgeoisie Democratic Party or their apologists.


"The worst type of politician is a Democrat -they talk left while stabbing you in the back."


We all know where the right stands. (and how vile it is itself)

To be honest I think of most economists these days on corporate media as having about as much credibility as phrenologists.

Should we assume that you as a right wing libertarian always side with the GOP?

Assume for a sec you are not a total partisan hack. Being a left libertarian generally does not make you a Democrat or into reckless bourgeoisie economics.

Personally in my opinion the whole lot of politicians/rageaholic pundits/economists/wall st parasites should be building useful infrastructure for the workers -with a shovel.
 
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QueBert

Lifer
Jan 6, 2002
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I love how everyone here is trying to give the impression that anything not California is a middle of nowhere sh*thole with no jobs, nothing to do. I guess if you think this it is not a surprise you put up with 500k bungalows 60 minutes away from where you work.

Not California = doesn't interest me at all. I'd chose being homeless in CA over living in a house any any of the 49 other states. Weather & females alone make California untouchable.
 

davmat787

Diamond Member
Nov 30, 2010
5,512
24
76
Ahh, the old Cascadian rivalry. I lived in PDX for awhile. Nocal and OR, WA are amazing.

Washington State Troopers were odd though, they actually made my buddy take avacado off his sandwich he was making at a rest stop.

Was kinda funny though. We did have CA plates and a old VW bus.

This was my first introduction to the whole silly northwest rivalry.

If Cascadia did break off ever, SF would make a fine capital. ;)

Of all the Cascadia maps I have seen, I can't recall one ever including SF. And if they did, it sure as shit would never be the capitol. SF just does not fit in with the Cascadia psyche. :colbert:

Just for fun, in case others don't know of the Cascadia movement: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cascadia_(independence_movement)
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
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Of all the Cascadia maps I have seen, I can't recall one ever including SF. And if they did, it sure as shit would never be the capitol. SF just does not fit in with the Cascadia psyche. :colbert:

Just for fun, in case others don't know of the Cascadia movement: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cascadia_(independence_movement)

I know of it, SF is the capital of the Northwest, we are mountains and endless forest of bigass trees. No, we don't have the lumberjack vibe, but then it's pretty rural up there in them parts.

I am kidding btw about SF being the capital someday. But I swear I have heard this. Maybe its a secret Californian plot.

Come to think of it, it doesn't make sense to end Cascadia so north. Northern Cali is nothing like Socal, far more like OR/WA.

Right..lets fix that...hmmm
*Mashes button launching endless waves of San Francisco Commie tank divisions northward into our new glorious worker forest communes* ;)
 
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May 13, 2009
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I hike and climb also, my question to you is why someone would want to drive and live that far out when you could just walk a few blocks over and do all that while having all the economic advantages of the city.

goldengatepark.jpg

LOW AND BEHOLD
It is called a park. And the whole center of the city pretty much IS one. Golden Gate Park to be specific. NYC has one also like this in size.

Right behind the pic is the beach. Oceans are fun also. ;)

We don't have too many pollution problems, (people don't drive much either) the SF Bay concentrates all the pacific wind through the mountains over us (which is why its always foggy from the afternoon on and the temp never really changes year 'round, always air conditioning weather, summer or winter) we also *gasp* regulate what we can. (we do have a refinery up the bay some though, and the east bay is a MESS) -but I live in the city, I go to NYC far more often then Oaktown.

That looks like a miserable experience to me. Way too many people. Give me my small little friendly hick town any day. Doesn't hurt having a little land for my dog to run on or just sit on the back porch and listen to the birds.
 
May 13, 2009
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Not California = doesn't interest me at all. I'd chose being homeless in CA over living in a house any any of the 49 other states. Weather & females alone make California untouchable.

We have just as nice weather here in north Texas for 8 months out of the year. Not only that but im living like a king on the halfway decent wages I make. I'd much rather deal with my shitty life in a big house and land rather than "live the Cali lifestyle" in a 400 sq ft apartment struggling day to day. Not saying that's you but from what I understand its tough out there in Cali.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
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That looks like a miserable experience to me. Way too many people. Give me my small little friendly hick town any day. Doesn't hurt having a little land for my dog to run on or just sit on the back porch and listen to the birds.

Victorians look crammed from the front, inbetween are the yards/gardens. You cannot see them from the street.

You can see the green going laterally in the city blocks. I have a 90 pound black lab that loves city life. I doubt anyones back yard is anything like the community garden on our block.

Beehives, koi ponds, trees from all over the world.

This all equals a LOT of sniffing and places to run around and pee on stuff.

Also there is a lot of other dogs to play with, and countless neighborhood humanoid hands that pet her.

This dog has never been chained in some yard.

(I cant take her to the backside of GG park though, the buffalo drive her nuts!)

buffalo-paddock-san-francisco-ca052.jpg


Yes, that is in the center of the city.

Personally I always thought grass lawns were a abberation. It looks like a pathetic faux carpet from the 70s that dumps chemicals into the lands waterways. Nasty looking with all the houses that look alike and endless phoney grass. To each his own though.
 
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Capt Caveman

Lifer
Jan 30, 2005
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We have just as nice weather here in north Texas for 8 months out of the year. Not only that but im living like a king on the halfway decent wages I make. I'd much rather deal with my shitty life in a big house and land rather than "live the Cali lifestyle" in a 400 sq ft apartment struggling day to day. Not saying that's you but from what I understand its tough out there in Cali.

And you couldn't pay me to live where you live.

Job opportunities, educational opportunities, culture, entertainment, cultural diversity, nearness to top medical, etc... It's why people want to live in CA, NYC, Boston, etc...
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
We have just as nice weather here in north Texas for 8 months out of the year. Not only that but im living like a king on the halfway decent wages I make. I'd much rather deal with my shitty life in a big house and land rather than "live the Cali lifestyle" in a 400 sq ft apartment struggling day to day. Not saying that's you but from what I understand its tough out there in Cali.

I lived in D/FW, it's muggy, hot, the outlying locals live in the 19th century still, flat as hell with no landmarks but water towers. Endless tract housing where everyone paint their houses the same like the borg assimilated them. (Texans sure love freedom of expression and liberty huh? LOL)

Sucky cold winters covered in ice. CA weather my ass. I will give it this, no earthquakes, but then I watched the apartment building across the street get demolished by a tornado since the land is so flat and useless.

I can't tell the difference in northern TX and KA. (except that TX doesnt even have boring endless cornfields to look at while having to fly over) It's a burned out wasteland. Doubly so for western TX which looks like Socal desert without the rocky mountain beauty. Meh.

The biggest hill in TX is about the incline of my walk home from work. No wonder they wear those silly looking heavy boots.

Dont get me started on pollution, east texas is a carcinogenic pit filled with smoke belching pickup trucks, poorly regulated oil refineries from ages past still chugging shit onto the air, with nowhere for the pollution to go but sit over the cities. (not as bad as Phoenix, AZ..you all have that at least!)
 
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May 13, 2009
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And you couldn't pay me to live where you live.

Job opportunities, educational opportunities, culture, entertainment, cultural diversity, nearness to top medical, etc... It's why people want to live in CA, NYC, Boston, etc...

Job opportunities? lol. Check out our unemployment rate and job growth sometime. Pretty sure there is plenty of top medical in Dallas/Fort Worth which is within a 30-40 min drive.
Please let me in on what cultural things you do that's so f'ing great that you'll sacrifice having a nicer home, car, etc.. So you sacrifice what makes up 99% of where your time is spent so you can be "cultural" on Friday nights.
 
May 13, 2009
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I lived in D/FW, it's muggy, hot, the outlying locals live in the 19th century still, flat as hell with no landmarks but water towers. Endless tract housing where everyone paint their houses the same like the borg assimilated them. (Texans sure love freedom of expression and liberty huh? LOL)

Sucky cold winters covered in ice. CA weather my ass. I will give it this, no earthquakes, but then I watched the apartment building across the street get demolished by a tornado since the land is so flat and useless. So whatever.

You didn't live here long since you'd know we've have one bad ice storm a year that lasts about 3 days and that's it for the year.