Californians are supposed to pay for community college for illegal immigrants?

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: oLLie

CadKindaGuy: I think what people are overlooking here - AGAIN - is that there people are here ILLEGALLY.

Yeah, it irks me when people refer to them as undocumented migrants... they are illegal immigrants.

LunarRay: NAFTA and the whoosh to Mexico was intended to go to the root of the problem. It just don't work.

I can't really speak for CKG, but I think you are assuming that when he said the "root of the problem" he was referring to the poor economy in whatever country the illegal immigrants came from, but isn't it possible he meant the root of the problem was California's nonexistant effort to keep illegals out?

Yes but not totally. California's problem is that their border isn't secure. Mexico's problem is that their "government" isn't strong enought to provide security for a strong economy. I'm not saying we should help Mexico with it's economic struggles - but the answer is definately NOT to just allow them all to leech off of our system.

CkG

It is the US Border and the Federal Govt has the jurisdiction and responsibility. We have Mexican factories with workers that were suppose to earn enough to encourage growth and stability via the NAFTA treaty. But, the workers earn pennies and the program has failed while we have lost all that manufacturing to Mexico (with the help and greed of our US Companies). The Illegal Alien problem continues and it cannot be stopped at a cost less than dealing with the issue on our side of the border. Get them into the system paying taxes to support themselves. They are not taking our jobs because we won't pick berries at the rate of pay they will... that is the only way to deal with it. At some point they will not come because all the berry picking jobs will be gone and the folks who hold them will defend their job against anyone. GET THEM INTO THE SYSTEM! Don't ignor them and think they will go away. You'd need 50000 border and immigration agents and a budget of bazillions to be partially effective from Texas to the Pacific.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUYYes but not totally. California's problem is that their border isn't secure. Mexico's problem is that their "government" isn't strong enought to provide security for a strong economy. I'm not saying we should help Mexico with it's economic struggles - but the answer is definately NOT to just allow them all to leech off of our system.

CkG

Cad, do you know how BIG the CA border region is with Mexico? Not only that, what about other states that border Mexico? The entire border region is 3,100 kilometers (2,000 miles) from the Gulf of Mexico to the Pacific Ocean. Simply suggesting that we "secure the border" is vasty oversimplifying the problem. What? Do you want to build a 2,000-mile long wall?

Moreover, a lot of people would suggest there's a reciprocal relationship between illegal immigrants in CA and business interests in CA. After all, in exchange for a certain amount of "looking the other way," business owners (and farm owners) are supplied with plenty of cheap labor. You, of all people, should appreciate that. 😀

yes I understand how big the border is

But like I said - that is OUR problem. It isn't over simplifying our problem. I stated that the problem is much bigger than the border situation but there isn't much we can do until Mexico changes. The reason they come here goes back to the fact that Mexico's economy isn't big enough to provide for the people in that nation. To give them more incentive to come here is NOT the answer.
I don't give a flying fsck about you Californians that are too damn lazy to mow your own lawns and clean your own dasm house, etc. These people can come to the US LEGALLY if they go through the proper channels - why reward them for BREAKING THE LAW?

CkG

 

[chowderhead]

I skimmed through all the post and I did not find the article where it talks about illegal immigrants and community college.
To set the record straight ... 2001 article about this issue
New Law Allows Undocumented Immigrants to Pay In-State Tuition
Gov. Gray Davis signed a bill last Thursday allowing undocumented immigrants who are California residents to pay in-state tuition at California state universities and community colleges.
The new law would allow the UC system to adopt a similar policy, although the bill does not require the UC system to offer in-state tuition to undocumented immigrants. Such a change in UC policy would require the approval of the UC Board of Regents. (I believe the UC board did approve the policy changes so that undocumented immigrants pay instate tuition)
Immigrant students must meet four criteria if they wish to qualify for in-state tuition under the bill, authored by Assemblymember Marco Firebaugh, D-East Los Angeles.
Students must be enrolled in a California high school for at least three years and graduate, then be admitted into a California college and sign an affidavit pledging they will start the process of normalizing their immigrant status as soon as possible.

I know that undocumented immigrants contribute a lot to the economy. Many industries could simply never function well or at the same cost structure if it was not for cheap labor by these undocumented immigrants.
Though I cannot blame the children of illegal immigrants who want to better themselves through education, I have a problem with them receiving this benefit if the children are also undocumented. College education is a privilege not a right. Out of state students pay out of state tuition because they did not pay the state income/property taxes that help fund the Education system. Undocumented immigrants for the most part do not pay state or federal income taxes and thus should not receive the benefits of paying instate tuition, IMO. This along with allowing undocumented aliens driver license makes me sick as a Democrat.
We already allow foreign driver's licenses as valid proof in California. People can extend auto insurance coverage to CA from their own country. We should not make obtaining identification easier, nor should we IMO blur the distinct difference between an undocumented immigrant and a legal immigrant by giving these benefits and privileges to undocumented immigrants.
my 2 cents

 

[LunarRay]

CAD as usual said:
yes I understand how big the border is But like I said - that is OUR problem. It isn't over simplifying our problem. I stated that the problem is much bigger than the border situation but there isn't much we can do until Mexico changes. The reason they come here goes back to the fact that Mexico's economy isn't big enough to provide for the people in that nation. To give them more incentive to come here is NOT the answer.
I don't give a flying fsck about you Californians that are too damn lazy to mow your own lawns and clean your own dasm house, etc. These people can come to the US LEGALLY if they go through the proper channels - why reward them for BREAKING THE LAW?

***************
CAD... stop... put pencil to paper... calculate... If you put the illegals into the system the system will get more money to pay for their expense... sorta a break even... If there were no illegals or legals willing to work for pennies here then the cost of harvest would go up exponentially and YOU'D be paying more for your oranges or whatever... OK You'd only buy Iowa oranges... fine... but, our economy would suffer if they could find folks willing to do the work... Remember Cesar Chavez???

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: LunarRay
CAD as usual said:
yes I understand how big the border is But like I said - that is OUR problem. It isn't over simplifying our problem. I stated that the problem is much bigger than the border situation but there isn't much we can do until Mexico changes. The reason they come here goes back to the fact that Mexico's economy isn't big enough to provide for the people in that nation. To give them more incentive to come here is NOT the answer.
I don't give a flying fsck about you Californians that are too damn lazy to mow your own lawns and clean your own dasm house, etc. These people can come to the US LEGALLY if they go through the proper channels - why reward them for BREAKING THE LAW?

***************
CAD... stop... put pencil to paper... calculate... If you put the illegals into the system the system will get more money to pay for their expense... sorta a break even... If there were no illegals or legals willing to work for pennies here then the cost of harvest would go up exponentially and YOU'D be paying more for your oranges or whatever... OK You'd only buy Iowa oranges... fine... but, our economy would suffer if they could find folks willing to do the work... Remember Cesar Chavez???

Pull your head out of the clouds luny - there ARE LEGAL ways for migrant workers to come to the US to work...or did you forget about that😉 ILLEGALS (ie here through NON LEGAL ways) are NOT entitled to things afforded US citizens or LEGAL immigrants. Period.

CkG

 

[LunarRay]

Chowderhead,
Your premise is fine.. I suggest making anyone who has employment "documented" and legal. Work from that premise. They help our economy. Let them help our systems too... by paying into it.

 

[LunarRay]

CAD,
Pull your head out of the clouds luny - there ARE LEGAL ways for migrant workers to come to the US to work...or did you forget about that ILLEGALS (ie here through NON LEGAL ways) are NOT entitled to things afforded US citizens or LEGAL immigrants. Period

*******************************

On the off chance that you actually see the problem and recognize it ain't going away any time soon and understand that all along I've been saying the solution to the problem is on our side of the border then it should be no surprise that I suggest getting them into the system presupposes a status that is legal. How it is developed is for the Congress and Legislature to figure out. Get them into a tax paying status! Enact law that; If they are not citizens they don't qualify for Earned Income Tax Credits etc... something that provides $ for the system from them so when they consume from the system in some manner they've paid for it...
But, In any event, as you said... You don't care diddly about California... there be corn on the stalk.. for the pickin... any illegals doing any pickin there abouts..?

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: LunarRay
CAD,
Pull your head out of the clouds luny - there ARE LEGAL ways for migrant workers to come to the US to work...or did you forget about that ILLEGALS (ie here through NON LEGAL ways) are NOT entitled to things afforded US citizens or LEGAL immigrants. Period

*******************************

On the off chance that you actually see the problem and recognize it ain't going away any time soon and understand that all along I've been saying the solution to the problem is on our side of the border then it should be no surprise that I suggest getting them into the system presupposes a status that is legal. How it is developed is for the Congress and Legislature to figure out. Get them into a tax paying status! If they are not citizens they don't qualify for Earned Income Tax Credits etc... something that provides $ for the system from them so when they consume from the system in some manner they've paid for it...
But, In any event, as you said... You don't care diddly about California... there be corn on the stalk.. for the pickin... any illegals doing any pickin there abouts..?

Just because the problem isn't going to "go away" doesn't mean that we need to give them the appearance of being "legal".
Nice try on my quote😉 Seems like you've latched onto the lib/dem way of taking things out of context.
I don't support any business who uses ILLEGAL workers, LEGAL migrant workers are a different story though😉

CkG

 

[Moonbeam]

I see that robo-reply Caddy is manning the autonomic rebuttal crank raging rote and remote retrograde reprimands to the soldier of light.

 

[LunarRay]

CAD,
Just because the problem isn't going to "go away" doesn't mean that we need to give them the appearance of being "legal".
Nice try on my quote Seems like you've latched onto the lib/dem way of taking things out of context.
I don't support any business who uses ILLEGAL workers, LEGAL migrant workers are a different story though

**********

I was not referring to your quote regarding Californians who... XYZ that won't get you flying... I was referring to other statements made regarding California the place... not a select few people.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I see that robo-reply Caddy is manning the autonomic rebuttal crank raging rote and remote retrograde reprimands to the soldier of light.

ROBO-CAD presumes that an illegal is illegal forever more. Getting an illegal into the system seems to me clearly a move toward making that person legal. To which, I'm certain, he will say, Why reward them for being illegal... by making them legal... to which I'd again reply, so they can pay into the system and provide legitimate and needed service to our nation.

But, the glacier moves faster than our Congress... unless we are doing the same basic thing elsewhere.

 

[DealMonkey]

Cad doesn't have an actual solution to the illegal immigrant problem, he simply enjoys railing about it. Also there's the side benefit of tearing down other states, pointing out their myriad problems, thereby making himself feel better for living in BFE.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Cad doesn't have an actual solution to the illegal immigrant problem, he simply enjoys railing about it. Also there's the side benefit of tearing down other states, pointing out their myriad problems, thereby making himself feel better for living in BFE.

BFE is a term that to me means Bat .... Egypt. 🙂

 

[Lucky]

Close the borders. Institue shoot on site orders to officers guarding the border. Build a electronically surveilled eletric fence with enough juice to knock someone out if they touch it, the entire length of mexico, and if warranted, canada. Stock the rio grande with pirahnas. Pass a law allowing illegals to get a drivers liscense-and then promptly arrest them and deport them when they show up. Deny all medical, educational, and social benefits to illegals. Shut down businesses who knowingly hire illegals, or fine them enough so that it's not worth it. Require legal citizens who are on non-disability long term unemployment or welfare to take jobs that the illegals have vacated.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: Lucky
Close the borders. Institue shoot on site orders to officers guarding the border. Build a electronically surveilled eletric fence with enough juice to knock someone out if they touch it, the entire length of mexico, and if warranted, canada. Stock the rio grande with pirahnas. Pass a law allowing illegals to get a drivers liscense-and then promptly arrest them and deport them when they show up. Deny all medical, educational, and social benefits to illegals. Shut down businesses who knowingly hire illegals, or fine them enough so that it's not worth it. Require legal citizens who are on non-disability long term unemployment or welfare to take jobs that the illegals have vacated.

Tom Delay must feel the same way but he's not done much in congress to do more than erect some walls that the folks tunnel under. But, most illegals gain enterence legaly then just go to work or over stay.
When an illegal (assumes one knows who's illegal) enters an emergency room do you request his documents before or after you've stopped the gushing 'bleeder'? Employers are required to obtain an I8 which is the form used to insure a worker is legal... don't work but, we've got the law. Arresting folks just creates a whoosh of folks comming to replace them... besides, folks with cars needing licences must have some income source.. why not tax them like you or me? (assumes making them legal to do so).

 

[dmcowen674]

Enforcement, Enforcement, Enforcement. If you are not going to enforce then the Law is bunk.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Enforcement, Enforcement, Enforcement. If you are not going to enforce then the Law is bunk.

They do enforce... the they are too few, way too few. To get enough Border agent or other enforcement folks you'd spend enormous funds plus the work they do won't get done which has greater ramifications. The US worker will not pick berries at 1$ an hour. They will!... IF a legal does the picking he must get paid somewhat more and with that goes the price of berries up, up and away..

 

[Lucky]

Originally posted by: LunarRay

Originally posted by: Lucky
Close the borders. Institue shoot on site orders to officers guarding the border. Build a electronically surveilled eletric fence with enough juice to knock someone out if they touch it, the entire length of mexico, and if warranted, canada. Stock the rio grande with pirahnas. Pass a law allowing illegals to get a drivers liscense-and then promptly arrest them and deport them when they show up. Deny all medical, educational, and social benefits to illegals. Shut down businesses who knowingly hire illegals, or fine them enough so that it's not worth it. Require legal citizens who are on non-disability long term unemployment or welfare to take jobs that the illegals have vacated.

Tom Delay must feel the same way but he's not done much in congress to do more than erect some walls that the folks tunnel under. But, most illegals gain enterence legaly then just go to work or over stay.
When an illegal (assumes one knows who's illegal) enters an emergency room do you request his documents before or after you've stopped the gushing 'bleeder'? Employers are required to obtain an I8 which is the form used to insure a worker is legal... don't work but, we've got the law. Arresting folks just creates a whoosh of folks comming to replace them... besides, folks with cars needing licences must have some income source.. why not tax them like you or me? (assumes making them legal to do so).

As soon as their illegality is known, they should be confined to their hospital bed. Their medical costs should be symbolically billed to their country of origin if that country has a track record of not cooperating in this area. Step up enforcement of existing employment laws. Seems like we have more building inspectors checking porches and decks than we do those who check the status of employees. Drivers liscenses are not just for driving, which is the true danger of the california democrats passing the law allowing illegals to obtain them.

The US worker will not pick berries at 1$ an hour. They will!... IF a legal does the picking he must get paid somewhat more and with that goes the price of berries up, up and away..

So be it. We need to recognize as a country that the price of strawberries may need to be more than $1.49/carton. Perhaps the driving out of wage-lowering illegals will foce increases in not only wages, but also in associated productivity, creativity, and technology.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Cad doesn't have an actual solution to the illegal immigrant problem, he simply enjoys railing about it. Also there's the side benefit of tearing down other states, pointing out their myriad problems, thereby making himself feel better for living in BFE.

There is a solution. Ship their ass back to where they came from. You know...actually enforce the law😉
I don't enjoy railing against it - I just don't like how it has been used as a political tool. We have laws on these things - to legitimize their presence with tuition/Drivers Licenses - only bastardizes the Law and promotes the continued influx.
Yes- California is a joke since it has legitimized ILLEGALS. Call it what you want but they are ILLEGAL.

Luny - you keep forgetting that there ARE ways for them to work here or immigrate here LEGALLY😉

CkG

 

[LunarRay]

Lucky,
Employers are required to keep payroll records 10 years. I8's are part of the records. You've filled one out if you've been or are employed. Needs a few sources of ID. One a picture and another a SS card or work permit etc..
My issue is I've not had a visit from the dept of labor to inspect our I8's ever. I've been with my current company or its prior owner corporation since '89.
To employ just one Agent or Border Agent cost about 90k$ a year in salary benefits and other expense aside from vehicle and all that. For every three you need a fouth to fill in the gap time. Doing nothing saves a bundle to the Feds. But, costs the state the services rendered. It actually is cheaper to do nothing... it is just who saves and who spends. Not to mention the affect on the farmer who can't get his product to market without the help... Folks just won't pick the berries even at 8$ per hour.. I'm sure if someone could figure out how to make robots to do the picking they would do it when the benefit and cost makes it doable. You only pick once in awhile not every day.

Why not just call them deserters like in the '70s exodus to Canada and then give em amnesty and make them one of us.. We are good at that kind of thing.. seeing the bigger good and in this case the cheaper resolution. Let them pay into the system. The delta cost of education is not much nor is the delta cost of medical... you can amortize the entire cost over the base but, we are speaking of delta...

 

[LunarRay]

CADaLegal,
Luny - you keep forgetting that there ARE ways for them to work here or immigrate here LEGALLY
***************

I know that.
The facts regarding the cost of them being here is insignificant compared to the folks legally here but, still not citizens. If you want to consider ALL the non citizens then the cost of services is indeed large and offset to some extent by those legals in the system. But, they too are a net drain cuz they don't pay enough to cover themselves.. you Cad, chip in..🙂

To keep the Illegals out would cost a fortune. To enforce the law would cost a fortune. They are here so let them stay save the money and let them work and join the rest in blissfull Americanism.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: LunarRay
CADaLegal,
Luny - you keep forgetting that there ARE ways for them to work here or immigrate here LEGALLY
***************

I know that.
The facts regarding the cost of them being here is insignificant compared to the folks legally here but, still not citizens. If you want to consider ALL the non citizens then the cost of services is indeed large and offset to some extent by those legals in the system. But, they too are a net drain cuz they don't pay enough to cover themselves.. you Cad, chip in..🙂

To keep the Illegals out would cost a fortune. To enforce the law would cost a fortune. They are here so let them stay save the money and let them work and join the rest in blissfull Americanism.

Nah - I'd rather they go through the proper channels that are already in place to establish citizenship or get a legal visa. What precident does it set by letting them all just stay because they're already here?

CkG

 

[LunarRay]

ModeratingCAD, (somewhat 🙂)
Nah - I'd rather they go through the proper channels that are already in place to establish citizenship or get a legal visa. What precident does it set by letting them all just stay because they're already here?

*********************

They enter on non work permit visas or some other vehicle or under/over the fence. They stay beyond their alloted time or go to work illegally. They do this because there are not the available billets to allow work permitted entry. Or they don't know the process or whatever. I'm again and again saying only that we recognized they are here and deal with that issue by some means that may enable them to get work permits or something given they are working and need being in the system. The folks not yet here is another kind of problem that cannot be solved on this side of the border. Nor on that side either. So, by allowing the folks here to be legal they will guard their employment like a tiger her cubs and advise others to stay away... unless there is a need in which case we allow folks to immigrate with work permits because we need them... do we need these folks less... ? I think not.. if you consider just a need point of view.

 

[oLLie]

Originally posted by: LunarRay

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: LunarRay
Well, now we'd have a mother and fatherless child who is a citizen but, needing care. So off to the place parentless kids go until someone puts them in foster care or adoption.. and during this time they need cared for at a cost. If one calculates the cost of trying to 'rid the nation of aliens' versus insuring programs intended to resolve the issue (NAFTA) are workable we'd have much better results on alot of fronts. Ask why are the folks who worked in Mexico plants on the border still making pennies and still wanting to come here where we have high unemployment. We have dummies at the helm it seems. There are nuts loose on all our important machinery and not a wrench in sight.

edit... the kids who are citizens are not criminals... yet!

Your logic is too retarded to be manipulative. You're trying to say that paying for the kids and the illegal parents is cheaper than just paying for the kids alone. You might want to step back, take a deep inward look, and realize just how badly you have been manipulated.

And Moonie, take your flowery veiled insults and stick 'em where the sun don't shine. I work for what I have. Just because you don't doesn't mean that you can take what's mine and give it to someone else, and no amount of knee-deep BS is going to convice me otherwise. Are you trying to say that monkey know what theft is but humans shouldn't?

One must understand that I've been saying all along the same theme... they are here and here is where they are going to stay. I say this because since I first stepped foot in California Illegal Aliens have been here. There are some who've been assimilated via citizenship, marriage or otherwise but they have been here and the quantity has grown over the years.
I have first hand experience what occurs when kids of any origin are not cared for health wise. They spread their disease to the otherwise healthy. Providing health care for kids in school seems a no brainer to me. One epidemic of the flu can decimate not only the class but the parents of those kids.. the you and me's. Over the years I've raised my kids and now grand kids and each time I see an out break it is traced down to one kid who got sick from something and spread it... that is the way it occurs, I'm told. A simple few dollar shot for those who can't afford it would go a long way to keeping all the kids healthy.

I had the opportunity to grow up in an area where no one went to the doctor, in fact I don't think I ever saw one or an office except when my granma took me to the hospital somewhere for tonsilitis and other than when I enlisted in the service at whitehall street. Sickness was the norm. It was accepted that kids got sick, or bad teeth, or spread the disease among the other kids... this was just normal there. I simply see a better way. The fact that there no one went to the MD is different than here where folks care about their kids health. What I suggest is nothing more than an insurance against our kids getting sick and at the same time helping their kids remain healthy or a bit better off as the case may be.

Wow, you're a grandfather? Based on the tone of your posts and the type of arguments you make I would've pegged you as a bright-eyed, bushy-tailed, idealistic (IMO naive) high-school kid like Moonbeam. In fact, I would've guessed you were a liberal-club buddy of Moonbeam at his high school because of the similarities in your usernames and the fact that you two are always in the same threads backing each other up.

 

[LunarRay]

Ollie,
Heheeheheheh... My oldest grandson is 19 and an ardent conservative republican the other two little conservatives are 17 and 13... In fact, my dog (a silkie) is a conservative. Moonbeam or I should say Herr Dr. Moonbeam's utterances and mine may emanate from a similar point of origin, so to speak. When one considers the age of the universe our individual ages are irrelevant, don't ya think..🙂

My argument stems from the fiscal reality that appears if we try to follow the law in this case for every illegal or legal illegally working or living here. I agree in theory with the rule of law in this issue, I, however, see the non-enforcement by the folks charged with that responsibility stemming from the nature of the problem and the cost and reality of enforcing it as being beyond our ability $ wise. So the only thing to do is, IMO, anything that mitigates the cost to us while not incurring the cost to partially address the issue with more agents and fences and all that.
It reminds me of having a law that outlaws smoking in your home... how many police will be needed to enforce that?... what you do is arrest a smoker when and if you happen upon the issue..

I should add that I was a bushy tailed myoptic thinking liberal once upon a time. Today I'm just an opinionated much older person who married really young... my wife would say before she was born.. (she was at least two)
I have changed my name to LunarRay from HJD1 because Moonbeam thinks much deeper then many recoginze or accept... often they simply brush him off as so much blather when, in fact, it is so real and relevant but, not what folks want to hear.. IMO and Freud's and to some extent Jung's and Socrates and... and...