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California law bans gay teen 'conversion' therapy

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alzan said:
How is it eviscerated? Lots of people of different sexual orientations want to pass on their and their partners traits, genetic lineage, etc.
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So they CAN choose to be heterosexual then right?

Cerpin Taxt said:
I'd like to to show us some scientific evidence that you didn't choose your eye color.
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Well we could for instance look at identical twins. How many identical twins do you know who have different eye color?

Now as for twin stuides and homoseuxality
A number of twin studies have attempted to compare the relative importance of genetics and environment in the causation of sexual orientation. In a 1991 study, Bailey and Pillard found that 52% of monozygotic (MZ) brothers and 22% of the dizygotic (DZ) twins were concordant for homosexuality.[4] 'MZ' indicates identical twins with the same sets of genes and 'DZ' indicates fraternal twins where genes are mixed to a similar extent as non-twin siblings. In 2000 Bailey, Dunne and Martin found similar results from a larger sample of 4,901 Australian twins.[5] Self reported zygosity, sexual attraction, fantasy and behaviours were assessed by questionnaire and zygosity was serologically checked when in doubt. They found 20% concordance in the male identical or MZ twins and 24% concordance for the female identical or MZ twins. A meta-study by Hershberger (2001)[6] compares the results of eight different twin studies: among those, all but two showed MZ twins having much higher concordance of sexual orientation than DZ twins, suggesting a non-negligible genetic component.

Bearman and Bruckman (2002) criticized early studies of concentrating on small, select samples[3] and non-representative selection of their subjects.[7] They studied 289 pairs of identical twins (monozygotic or from one fertilized egg) and 495 pairs of fraternal twins (dizygotic or from two fertilized eggs) and found concordance rates for same-sex attraction of only 7.7% for male identical twins and 5.3% for females, a pattern which they say "does not suggest genetic influence independent of social context."[3]

A 2010 study of all adult twins in Sweden (more than 7,600 twins)[8] found that same-sex behavior was explained by both heritable factors and individual-specific environmental sources (such as prenatal environment, experience with illness and trauma, as well as peer groups, and sexual experiences), while influences of shared-environment variables such as familial environment and societal attitudes had a weaker, but significant effect. Women showed a statistically non-significant trend to weaker influence of hereditary effects, while men showed no effect of shared environmental effects. The use of all adult twins in Sweden was designed to address the criticism of volunteer studies, in which a potential bias towards participation by gay twins may influence the results (see below).

Overall, the environment shared by twins (including familial and societal attitudes) explained 0–17% of the choice of sexual partner, genetic factors 18–39% and the unique environment 61–66%. The individual's unique environment includes, for example, circumstances during pregnancy and childbirth, physical and psychological trauma (e.g., accidents, violence, and disease), peer groups (other than those shared with a twin), and sexual experiences. In men, genetic effects explained .34–.39 of the variance, the shared environment .00, and the individual-specific environment .61–.66 of the variance. Corresponding estimates among women were .18–.19 for genetic factors, .16–.17 for shared environmental, and .64–.66 for unique environmental factors.

Criticisms
Twin studies have received a number of criticisms including self-selection bias where homosexuals with gay siblings are more likely to volunteer for studies. Nonetheless, it is possible to conclude that, given the difference in sexuality in so many sets of identical twins, sexual orientation cannot be purely caused by genetics.
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Yreka said:
http://news.yahoo.com/california-law-bans-gay-teen-conversion-therapy-053700163.html

I wonder how they plan on enforcing this considering doctor/patient privilege. Seems like something that would be easy to circumvent.


Not sure how I feel about this yet.. I have 2 gay friends that went through this "therapy" growing up at the behest of their parents. In both cases, it was one of those extreme "pray the gay away" type camps run by religious leaders (not doctors). In both cases, they feel it set them back (in life) quite a bit, and made things much worse in an already difficult time.

On the other hand, I worry about the bill encroaching into medical therapy practice creating a situation where even approaching the subject of sexuality is avoided due to fear of repercussions. That being said, the major behavioral science associations in the state seem to support it, so I guess they would know better than I would.
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Well, sexuality isn't really a medical issue.

I see no problem with this law.
 
I thought parents were allowed to raise their own children. So I guess the courts have decided that gay is right and straight is wrong. Who is to say the best way for parents to raise and instruct their children in how to behave? So is the left going to decide how to raise your kids and what the best left-wing brainwashing techniques are acceptable?
 
I have to wonder about therapy that would be "forceful." If the therapy is forced on someone, it is not therapeutic and is unethical. A client has to be willing to work, you cannot force a client to work. If this is what this law is really about, there is nothing wrong with it, and there is nothing new to see here. However, if this law is trying to say that any participation of a minor in this type of therapy is unlawful, that is a different thing. It seems like it is the latter, which is unfortunate.
 
If Prayer worked, there would be no need for 24/7 surveillance, constant confronting of certain character traits, constant reinforcement of preferred character traits, or just a constant barrage for/against a single issue. These camps truly are just Brainwashing Camps, just like all the Cults that were the rage back in the 70's/80's and various parent attempts to Rescue/Deprogram their Children from. Seems some people failed to learn the Immorality of them and instead have decided to apply the technique for their own personal motivations.
 
Scientifically and medically speaking sexual orientation is not a disorder in any way.And in accordance with Nature itself.
There is nothing to be cured at all.
Are they going to cure jewishness then?The lefhanded?

When so called parents put their gay child. a teenager, a perfectly healthy in this regard american citizen forcefully through antiscientific torture based mostly on abrahamic antihumane doctrine because their god, a mass murderer, a psycopath, a sadist, a terrorist who bombed at least 2 cities and the creature responsible for the genocide of human race, commands so then government certainly should interfere same as when the said parents rape their child.

Good for California.

Those nutjobs harming their children, making their life miserable and leading them to a suicide must be stopped at all costs.

And the perfect solution to the problem is pictured in a nice movie called The Tall Man starring Jodelle Ferland.yes. 😉)
WHy let them raise children into broken, miserable creatures bent over artificially induced feelings of guilt and self-hatred?WHy let them spread the real disease damaging to the very fabric of our societyt?
 
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Cerpin Taxt said:
I can put color contacts in my eyes! Clearly eye color is a choice!
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So you eye color is a choice. Should the government ban colored contacts?

Semela said:
Scientifically and medically speaking sexual orientation is not a disorder in any way.And in accordance with Nature itself.
There is nothing to be cured at all.
Are they going to cure jewishness then?The lefhanded?
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Lots of things are in accordance with nature.

I am sure if a parent did not want their child to be Jewish they would be allowed to take steps to prevent it.
 
Incorruptible said:
If people want treatment then let them get it, why are you against this?
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Because most medical therapies have to be approved as such with lots of evidence, so that you don't get some self-proclaimed doctor going around claiming that he can cure <insert incurable disease here> and all he needs is your credit card number. If such people were allowed to do that sort of thing, then a) they could be doing a lot more harm than good and/or b) they're probably engaging in fraudulent behaviour anyway because they know that they can't do what they claim.

I doubt that organisations claiming they can convert people with homosexual inclinations can come up with adequate evidence to that effect. Considering also that most developed countries' medical bodies have declared homosexuality to be not any sort of disease or aberration, organisations claiming the contrary would have to have an enormous amount of decent evidence to prove their case against the enormous pile of evidence against them.

If your dying grandmother was conned out of her life savings / stripped of her assets by some charlatan claiming to be able to cure her (currently incurable) cancer, if such behaviour wasn't against the law "because people should be able to have the treatment they desire", how would you feel about it?

Or a more relevant example, someone you are close to who has homosexual inclinations isn't ever the same again, with a list of other physical/mental problems as a result of "homosexual corrective therapy", how would you feel about that?

Do you think the surgeon performing surgery on your heart should have to be qualified to do that job, and is using techniques that are generally considered positively and proven to do the job correctly? Or is it your fault that you didn't properly inquire into the "surgeon"'s past to find out that his "qualification" was actually a lie (or pretty much a lie by being from the Mickey Mouse University)?

There was a scandal in Europe recently due to a (IIRC) French company supplying breast implants. Allegedly someone in the company switched to a cheaper, non-medical grade of silicon after getting approval for their design. The non-medical grade silicon carries a risk of cancer. Apparently the approval/checking system in America is tighter and probably wouldn't have allowed this to happen. Is this a good thing or not?
 
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mikeymikec said:
I doubt that organisations claiming they can convert people with homosexual inclinations can come up with adequate evidence to that effect. Considering also that most developed countries' medical bodies have declared homosexuality to be not any sort of disease or aberration, organisations claiming the contrary would have to have an enormous amount of decent evidence to prove their case against the enormous pile of evidence against them.
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A mental disorder or mental illness is a psychological pattern or anomaly, potentially reflected in behavior, that is generally associated with distress or disability, and which is not considered part of normal development of a person's culture
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_disorder

In what way is Homosexuality clearly not a mental illness by that definition?

Is it a associated with distress? If they are seeking conversion therapy clearly yes.

Is is associated with disability? It would seem to clearly retard reproductive ability.

Is it not normal development? Given that maybe 2% are homosexual and another 2% are bisexual this would also seem to be true.
 
nehalem256 said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_disorder

In what way is Homosexuality clearly not a mental illness by that definition?
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No.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_psychology

Is it a associated with distress? If they are seeking conversion therapy clearly yes.
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I would be quite surprised if someone who is homosexual and is seeking conversion therapy hasn't been coerced/pressured into doing it by a bunch of idiots around them who think that heterosexuality is the only way one can be normal.

Is is associated with disability? It would seem to clearly retard reproductive ability.
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If someone is homosexual and thinks that they ought to be able to engage in reproductive sex with their homosexual partner, then it's not therapy they need, it's education. Something tells me that this isn't a common scenario.

Is it not normal development? Given that maybe 2% are homosexual and another 2% are bisexual this would also seem to be true.
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You think that only 4% of the world population is homosexual or bisexual? I strongly suggest you pursue the education option 🙂
 
mikeymikec said:
No.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_psychology



I would be quite surprised if someone who is homosexual and is seeking conversion therapy hasn't been coerced/pressured into doing it by a bunch of idiots around them who think that heterosexuality is the only way one can be normal.



If someone is homosexual and thinks that they ought to be able to engage in reproductive sex with their homosexual partner, then it's not therapy they need, it's education. Something tells me that this isn't a common scenario.



You think that only 4% of the world population is homosexual or bisexual? I strongly suggest you pursue the education option 🙂
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Please, enlighten us, since you seem to have all the answers. How much of the population would you say is homosexual?
 
xBiffx said:
Er what? Are you really going to sit and argue that the biological need to reproduce and propagate the species is a choice and not a primal instinct? Not sure you want to go down that road.
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It is a primal instinct, but so is a gay man's instinct to be with men. A gay man would no more enjoy sex with a woman than you would enjoy sex with a man, and they can no more refrain from an interest in men than you can refrain from an interest in women.

nehalem256 said:
I have not had the therapy 😀

And your point is kind of eviscerated by the # of gay people who somehow have children in a heterosexual relationship.
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"Somehow" is an apt description. They have to desperately twist and distort their mind in order to end up that way. Even reading the accounts of current ex-gays who claim to have a happy life, you get this creepy Stepford Wives feel from them, like they've had a significant part of their nature lobotomized (because they have). The vast majority of people who go through this "treatment", however, don't come out that way.
 
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