California bullet train cost surges by $2.8 billion: 'Worst-case scenario has happened'

[fskimospy]

Uhmmmm, population density in the Northeast Corridor is considerably higher than that of Western Europe.

 

[K1052]

Not sure why a map of America is overlaid with Europe and what that is supposed to prove . All the HSR systems proposed so far are regional (CA, NEC, Chicago Hub, Texas Triangle/T-Bone, etc) where the existing densities would function well within the constraints of current HSR technology in the sub 500 mile range area where it is optimal.

 

[zinfamous]

Amtrak owns the NEC from DC to Boston and a few scattered chunks across the country but mostly they rely on trackage rights that the railroads had to agree to grant them in order to be released from their obligations to provide passenger service. More dedicated passenger tracks would greatly improve things though it's expensive. Mostly states just work with the railroads on shared costs for incremental improvements to the existing system.

AH I see. I tend to take the train from DC-south, so I always get stuck with the delays. My drop off is also where the slow engine is removed and the Acela takes over. Feels good.

 

[zinfamous]

Comparing U.S. to Europe for purposes of trains is ridiculous. First Western European distances are small compared to the U.S., the distance covered by the BOS-DC Accela corridor (about 450 miles) would basically cross western Europe. For example, from London it would put you in Bern or Lyons. Add the extension to Richmond, VA and it represents London to Berlin or Milan. Europe is also significantly more population dense than the US (that distance mentioned earlier features about 10x the total population of the Northeast corridor). Plus Europe has been built out for far longer thus there's less green space for transportation alternatives like 16 lane superhighways.

Uh, I guess you really don't care about thinking this through? The point of connecting high-speed commuter rail here, in the US, is to do it where it is actually needed--in those concentrated population areas, much like Europe--not across the entire country where 80% of the space is Joe the Farmer and his plot of government-subsidized dirt.

And of course those distances in Europe that you mention employ exactly what we are talking about, do it very well, and it is wildly popular and effective. Thanks for helping to make the direct comparison that should be obvious to anyone.

 

[fskimospy]

Uh, I guess you really don't care about thinking this through? The point of connecting high-speed commuter rail here, in the US, is to do it where it is actually needed--in those concentrated population areas, much like Europe--not across the entire country where 80% of the space is Joe the Farmer and his plot of government-subsidized dirt.

I mean he was arguing against high speed rail in the northeast corridor by saying Western Europe is more population dense when the northeast corridor’s density is about double that of Western Europe.

I don’t think he knows what he’s talking about, haha.

 

[glenn1]

Uhmmmm, population density in the Northeast Corridor is considerably higher than that of Western Europe.

The density is all in the coastal strip in the NE corridor which is typically about 50-75 miles wide. if you go 100 or sometimes 50 miles east-west of that strip and density drops off a cliff. Pick a dense spot in Europe then go 50 or 100 miles east west north or south you’ll be in a different but just as dense part of Western Europe. Heck, pick a dense spot and go anywhere within several hundred miles in any direction and you still might not reach a spot that's comparatively as non-dense as anywhere in the U.S. outside the narrow NE corridor.

It's this:

Versus this:

 

[zinfamous]

Again, thanks for making a clear and obvious display of the exact proposed regions in the US where HSR will be very effective and popular.

 

[fskimospy]

The density is all in the coastal strip in the NE corridor which is typically about 50-75 miles wide. if you go 100 or sometimes 50 miles east-west of that strip and density drops off a cliff. Pick a dense spot in Europe then go 50 or 100 miles east west north or south you’ll be in a different but just as dense part of Western Europe. Heck, pick a dense spot and go anywhere within several hundred miles in any direction and you still might not reach a spot that's comparatively as non-dense as anywhere in the U.S. outside the narrow NE corridor.

It's this:

Versus this:

So in other words the northeast corridor, the place where we are talking about building high speed rail, is much more dense than Western Europe. Thank you.

 

[Ichinisan]

everything always costs more. it always does. Still, CA is far more successful and profitable, and actually efficient than it ever was under failing republican leadership.

You mean the Governator? I recall that there was an electrical grid disaster with rolling blackouts under Gray Davis and they had a recall election or something.

[edit]
Oops. Didn't realize this post was from January LAST year.

 

[fskimospy]

Again, thanks for making a clear and obvious display of the exact proposed regions in the US where HSR will be very effective and popular.

It’s a weird argument: ‘America lacks the density to have effective high speed rail so long as you include all the sparsely populated areas where nobody wants to build high speed rail.’

 

[glenn1]

Again, thanks for making a clear and obvious display of the exact proposed regions in the US where HSR will be very effective and popular.

You’re missing the point; the biggest reason why the business case is far better in Europe is because everywhere on the continent is connected by rail. The network effects make a huge difference to the business case for rail in Europe vs the US.

 

[fskimospy]

You’re missing the point; the biggest reason why the business case is far better in Europe is because everywhere on the continent is connected by rail. The network effects make a huge difference to the business case for rail in Europe vs the US.

So now the reason not to build high speed rail in the northeast is that we wouldn’t build high speed rail in places other than the northeast.

What.

Don’t you think it’s time to simply admit high speed rail in the northeast corridor is a very good idea?

 

[fskimospy]

It’s also weird to argue there’s no business case for rail in the northeast corridor considering the fact that rail literally exists today in the northeast corridor that is both heavily used and profitable.

So...like...we already did a test on the business case and it is clearly there. Why should we pretend otherwise?

 

[ultimatebob]

Again, thanks for making a clear and obvious display of the exact proposed regions in the US where HSR will be very effective and popular.

It also shows why a high speed California rail would work as well, since you're basically connecting the two large red splotches on the map in that state.

 

[glenn1]

So now the reason not to build high speed rail in the northeast is that we wouldn’t build high speed rail in places other than the northeast.

What.

Don’t you think it’s time to simply admit high speed rail in the northeast corridor is a very good idea?

That’s not the point I was responding to. A point which suggested that we use the European system as a proof of concept for train service in the US. The Northeast Corridor is in no way comparable to the Continental sized rail system in Europe as I pointed out. The business case and economics are completely different when your system connects hundreds of large cities versus the handful that the Northeast corridor does.

The addressable market for the northeast corridor Is the 30 some million people that live there plus tourists and allies transportation within a very narrow strip.

European HSR OTOH offers an addressable market up almost 400 million people plus tourists, connects many more cities, and covers every city on the entire continent within a reasonable timeframe (due to distances) when tied into the non-HSR network.

You would not use New York City as the proper comparison for touting the benefits of subway service in somewhere like Akron Ohio even though “both would involve trains.”

If you would like to use an appropriate comp for what service would actually be like in the United States feel free. For example Korean HSR service (Seoul to Bussn) seemingly resembles the LA to SF route. In both it’s primarily scoped as 2 cities being connected without being tied to a larger continental size high-speed rail system.

 

[Jaskalas]

If America wanted to build a useless wall they would have elected a congress to fund that wall.

If Trump wanted to build a wall, he would have pressed Congress to do it sometime in the two years he had.

 

[fskimospy]

That’s not the point I was responding to. A point which suggested that we use the European system as a proof of concept for train service in the US. The Northeast Corridor is in no way comparable to the Continental sized rail system in Europe as I pointed out. The business case and economics are completely different when your system connects hundreds of large cities versus the handful that the Northeast corridor does.

The addressable market for the northeast corridor Is the 30 some million people that live there plus tourists and allies transportation within a very narrow strip.

European HSR OTOH offers an addressable market up almost 400 million people plus tourists, connects many more cities, and covers every city on the entire continent within a reasonable timeframe (due to distances) when tied into the non-HSR network.

You would not use New York City as the proper comparison for touting the benefits of subway service in somewhere like Akron Ohio even though “both would involve trains.”

If you would like to use an appropriate comp for what service would actually be like in the United States feel free. For example Korean HSR service (Seoul to Bussn) seemingly resembles the LA to SF route. In both it’s primarily scoped as 2 cities being connected without being tied to a larger continental size high-speed rail system.

Okay, the comparable service I'll use is the already existing rail network in the northeast. It is both heavily used and profitable.

So again, don't you think it's time to simply admit high speed rail in the northeast corridor is a very good idea?

 

[SlowSpyder]

Thank you for acknowledging that the actual experts think it is useless. The Democrats also never wanted the wall that Trump is proposing.

It won’t be built now or ever as the people voted, and they voted it down. Reality can be painful sometimes but you’re going to have to accept it.



Transit congestion doesn’t exist? LOL.

The left is working to solve real problems, not xenophobic fantasies like you guys. Americans don’t want a wall and you’re going to have to come back to the mainstream and accept that.

Oh no, what are they going to do now then?!?! How much would this have REALLY helped with congestion? Do you think the average person was going cross state during the rush hour commute to work? This was the wrong solution in the best case.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/14/tru...k-feds-billions-for-bullet-train-project.html

Maybe Trump will get his wall money after all? Better to use the $3.5 billion on something that will actually do something tangible vs. wasted money on a idiotic leftist government project that they couldn't even complete.

 

[fskimospy]

Oh no, what are they going to do now then?!?! How much would this have REALLY helped with congestion? Do you think the average person was going cross state during the rush hour commute to work? This was the wrong solution in the best case.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/14/tru...k-feds-billions-for-bullet-train-project.html

Maybe Trump will get his wall money after all? Better to use the $3.5 billion on something that will actually do something tangible vs. wasted money on a idiotic leftist government project that they couldn't even complete.

Haha, good luck with that. Seems Trump hasn't learned to stop making stupid demands of Democrats yet and will have to learn another lesson.

Maybe he can conduct another masterful negotiation and get it back just like he did with Pelosi, haha. Only the Master Dealmaker could have a negotiation between $1.6 billion and $5.7 billion and end up getting $1.3 billion. lol.

 

[SlowSpyder]

Haha, good luck with that. Seems Trump hasn't learned to stop making stupid demands of Democrats yet and will have to learn another lesson.

Maybe he can conduct another masterful negotiation and get it back just like he did with Pelosi, haha. Only the Master Dealmaker could have a negotiation between $1.6 billion and $5.7 billion and end up getting $1.3 billion. lol.

You are everything wrong with politics today. Trump compromised, took less than all he wanted to keep the government operational. Glad he was the bigger person.

 

[fskimospy]

You are everything wrong with politics today. Trump compromised, took less than all he wanted to keep the government operational. Glad he was the bigger person.

Trump was the one who shut the government down to begin with, lol. From the very start he was literally the only one making demands in order to keep the government open.

Amazing how quickly dishonest people start trying to rewrite history.

 

[glenn1]

Okay, the comparable service I'll use is the already existing rail network in the northeast. It is both heavily used and profitable.

So again, don't you think it's time to simply admit high speed rail in the northeast corridor is a very good idea?

I'm fine with upgrading the NEC to high speed. Whether it's a "very good idea" has nothing to do with whether it will ever get built. Everything from the costs to acquire right of way, to the logistics of building grade separated tracks (for pedestrian and vehicle safety purposes) and just fighting through the NIMBY and BANANA efforts of basically everyone pretty much ensures it won't ever get built. The moment a potential plan is developed it runs into immediate opposition from even those it would ostensibly serve. This blog post by U.S. Rep. Joe Courtney (D - CT) is a perfect example: “The welcome demise of the misguided and poorly conceived plan to realign railway tracks through communities across the southeastern Connecticut shoreline is a testament to the grass roots effort and perseverance of local residents and town leaders,”

https://courtney.house.gov/media-ce...wal-plan-realign-passenger-rail-tracks-across

 

[fskimospy]

I'm fine with upgrading the NEC to high speed. Whether it's a "very good idea" has nothing to do with whether it will ever get built. Everything from the costs to acquire right of way, to the logistics of building grade separated tracks (for pedestrian and vehicle safety purposes) and just fighting through the NIMBY and BANANA efforts of basically everyone pretty much ensures it won't ever get built. The moment a potential plan is developed it runs into immediate opposition from even those it would ostensibly serve. This blog post by U.S. Rep. Joe Courtney (D - CT) is a perfect example: “The welcome demise of the misguided and poorly conceived plan to realign railway tracks through communities across the southeastern Connecticut shoreline is a testament to the grass roots effort and perseverance of local residents and town leaders,”

https://courtney.house.gov/media-ce...wal-plan-realign-passenger-rail-tracks-across

Meh, that goes back to my point of how we should expand eminent domain for transit and limit the ability of localities to use litigation to hold up infrastructure.

 

[Ichinisan]

If Trump wanted to build a wall, he would have pressed Congress to do it sometime in the two years he had.

Trump's wall needs to serve double duty as infrastructure for a trans-continental high speed rail. Then it might actually be worth something.

 

[fskimospy]

If Trump wanted to build a wall, he would have pressed Congress to do it sometime in the two years he had.

He might have even put it in his budget request for this year, haha. Think about how stupid that is: Trump shut down the government for a month based on a demand he didn't even put in his budget request, something in which he can literally ask for anything he wants.

It's completely obvious that he didn't actually care about the wall, that's just red meat to rile up the racist rubes in his base. He thought he was going to show Nancy Pelosi who was boss by pulling this alpha move or whatever. The only problem is that Trump is so dumb and incompetent that he didn't realize he had no leverage.