California bullet train cost surges by $2.8 billion: 'Worst-case scenario has happened'

[JimKiler]

There are so many possible failure points in the hardware/software for a self driving car. It makes me cringe at the idea of these being on the road. I think a good first step would be a dedicated lane.

Have they even tested self driving cars in snow where you cannot see the edges or the roads or where the side streets are?

 

[bshole]

Well I don't know if that is really a fair assessment. Sure the rails are built in China but at what cost? Not just environmentally speaking but also regarding the people who owned the land the Chinese government confiscated to put the rails on.
You can't even build a pipeline here in America without multiple organizations and ethnic groups throwing a fit and delaying the process for years. I guess America could become more like Communist China and have the government just take what they want from the people without any due process but that is not what America was founded on.
I don't think I would look to Communist China as a shinning example though. They have a horrible track record when it comes to honoring the rights of their citizens.

They are throwing people off their land here in Wisconsin for FoxConn. Some of them are suing.

China is capitalism on steroids. It is the kind of capitalism that the American elite dream of. Why do you refer to it as "Communist" China?

https://www.channel3000.com/news/money/foxconn-land-dispute-property-owners-are-furious/684939655

- A group of Wisconsin property owners are suing in federal court over local government efforts to take their land as part of the incentive package for a Foxconn factory there.

The 12 property owners hold 18 acres of land that the Village of Mount Pleasant, Wisconsin, is seeking to take via the power of eminent domain.

 

[GagHalfrunt]

There are so many possible failure points in the hardware/software for a self driving car. It makes me cringe at the idea of these being on the road. I think a good first step would be a dedicated lane.

How many failure points are there in a car piloted by an idiot that's drunk, texting or putting on makeup? I cringe at the idea of those being on the road, but you can't drive a block without being surrounded by them. I'll take my chances with self-driving cars because it's likely that each generation will get better and learn from the mistakes of the previous models. That's more than can be said for humans.

 

[zinfamous]

I just read a cost breakdown on all public transportation in the US built since 1970. Turns out the cost works out to be 40 times the cost of roads.

As if building new roads on land that can't contain them is an actual option. The primary reason for PT isn't to get more people in cars, creating even more traffic and more pollution, it's to reduce all of those problems.

Did your cost breakdown that you just read without citing take into account cost savings in lost time for commuters stuck in traffic, pollution eliminated by reduction in car traffic, things like this?

 

[MrDudeMan]

the great thing about this country is that there is plenty of space for you to live happily rooting around in slop, and plenty of space for the urban centers that represent the actual jobs, progress, technology, and social advancement that subsidize your content lifestyle and for those people to live happily.

No one is really proposing that high speed rail connect the entire country--that would be nonsense, of course. But it should cover the economic engines of this country, just as it does in Europe: CA, North East corridor, Southeast corridor, etc.

What the actual fuck? Seriously, piss off with your "cities are better" bullshit. I'd love to hear how urban centers are making rural life both possible and better. Rural life enables urban life you dipshit and it has been that way since pretty much forever. Let me know next time you see a corn field in downtown LA. In terms of technology, I design satellites and I used to design microprocessors, which both are some of the most important pieces of technology we have. At the end of the day, all I've done is enable fatties to watch more TV in more places and dumbasses to check-in at Starbucks and the gym. There's no real progress going on, so take your arrogance and shove it. I don't even live in a rural area, but your comment is so stupid I can hardly believe there are people who think that way.

 

[zinfamous]

How many failure points are there in a car piloted by an idiot that's drunk, texting or putting on makeup? I cringe at the idea of those being on the road, but you can't drive a block without being surrounded by them. I'll take my chances with self-driving cars because it's likely that each generation will get better and learn from the mistakes of the previous models. That's more than can be said for humans.

yep. It's mind-boggling that the nay-sayers still can't wrap their heads around the fact that humans are the absolute worst part of the equation when it comes to driving. They are, in fact, the reason that accidents happen. Yet they will complain about traffic constantly, complain about assholes on the road...but no, those computers! that will lead to armageddon!

 

[zinfamous]

What the actual fuck? Seriously, piss off with your "cities are better" bullshit. I'd love to hear how urban centers are making rural life both possible and better. Rural life enables urban life you dipshit and it has been that way since pretty much forever. Let me know next time you see a corn field in downtown LA. In terms of technology, I design satellites and I used to design microprocessors, which both are some of the most important pieces of technology we have. At the end of the day, all I've done is enable fatties to watch more TV in more places and dumbasses to check-in at Starbucks and the gym. There's no real progress going on, so take your arrogance and shove it. I don't even live in a rural area, but your comment is so stupid I can hardly believe there are people who think that way.

damn bro, sorry to toss some sand in there. I was responding to an arrogant rural asshole by being equally arrogant. ...I thought that was obvious, but I guess not.

I'm pretty much done with the city myself, but there it is.

 

[Zorba]

I'm not sure where I read it, it might have been the HSRA website. And yes, I believe it was passenger miles. They have a lot of interesting information there, another little tidbit is the expected 4% reduction in road traffic between SF and LA, and that they expect fares to cover 25% of operating costs.

I don't believe that the system will come in anywhere near the estimate. 120 billion absolute minimum.

Passenger mile would be a terrible metric considering mass transit doesn't cover many miles, but the miles they do cover are by far the most expensive miles to provide infrastructure for. Comparing cost of passenger miles of a subway in NYC to I-40 in Arizona isn't a very relevant measure.

 

[theeedude]

Maybe Trump can lower our wages, eliminate the EPA, OSHA, the Labor Dept, so we can compete with China on their level while breathing in that quality manufactured air, then they can build all the tech junk here that our Silicon Valley faux liberals are so in love with because of the mad profits they enjoy due to the leveraging of the disparities between societies, and the deplorables can now be proud to see made in America at their local big box store while the 1% can enjoy greater profits due to cheaper than china domestic production and reduced shipping costs,

but look at the bright side, if you beg/protest/threaten to burn down the neighborhood enough the 1% might allow your politicians (their puppets) to give you a trickle down paycheck called basic income while providing you with all the reality TV to fill that unemployed time you will now have loads of so you can be shooting/snorting/swallowing/smoking up your opioids/weed/coke, etc. while crying over the injustice of it all on facebook/twitter/Instagram, etc.

There is no need to be bitter at Silicon Valley. Their success is not the reason for your failure. And they vote Democrat and pay for social programs to help the rest of the country.

 

[MooseNSquirrel]

I'm not sure where I read it, it might have been the HSRA website. And yes, I believe it was passenger miles. They have a lot of interesting information there, another little tidbit is the expected 4% reduction in road traffic between SF and LA, and that they expect fares to cover 25% of operating costs.

I don't believe that the system will come in anywhere near the estimate. 120 billion absolute minimum.

Interesting take on rail vs road

https://alankandel.scienceblog.com/...ssions-savings-difference-like-night-and-day/

 

[MooseNSquirrel]

Yeah, doing great.
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/rankings/government/fiscal-stability

#43 of 50

And #3 economically. Feel free to check out all the categories.

Yawn.

 

[JSt0rm]

What the actual fuck? Seriously, piss off with your "cities are better" bullshit. I'd love to hear how urban centers are making rural life both possible and better. Rural life enables urban life you dipshit and it has been that way since pretty much forever. Let me know next time you see a corn field in downtown LA. In terms of technology, I design satellites and I used to design microprocessors, which both are some of the most important pieces of technology we have. At the end of the day, all I've done is enable fatties to watch more TV in more places and dumbasses to check-in at Starbucks and the gym. There's no real progress going on, so take your arrogance and shove it. I don't even live in a rural area, but your comment is so stupid I can hardly believe there are people who think that way.

man who doesnt live in rural area has idea of why rural is great.

 

[imported_tajmahal]

And #3 economically. Feel free to check out all the categories.

Yawn.

Thanks, you mean the links are accurate and reflective of the states standing? Cool.

 

[dyna]

yep. It's mind-boggling that the nay-sayers still can't wrap their heads around the fact that humans are the absolute worst part of the equation when it comes to driving. They are, in fact, the reason that accidents happen. Yet they will complain about traffic constantly, complain about assholes on the road...but no, those computers! that will lead to armageddon!

Humans engineer the software and hardware. So you are right, humans are the problem and they can't engineer a solution for every condition. You should look at the human factor on both sides of the equation.

 

[fskimospy]

What the actual fuck? Seriously, piss off with your "cities are better" bullshit. I'd love to hear how urban centers are making rural life both possible and better. Rural life enables urban life you dipshit and it has been that way since pretty much forever. Let me know next time you see a corn field in downtown LA. In terms of technology, I design satellites and I used to design microprocessors, which both are some of the most important pieces of technology we have. At the end of the day, all I've done is enable fatties to watch more TV in more places and dumbasses to check-in at Starbucks and the gym. There's no real progress going on, so take your arrogance and shove it. I don't even live in a rural area, but your comment is so stupid I can hardly believe there are people who think that way.

Rural areas supply urban ones with food and such, but from an economic perspective urban areas finance rural ones. The overwhelming majority of the wealth that's created in this country is created in cities (yes, on a per-capita basis too), which we then use to support rural areas. So in a 14th century sense yes, rural areas support urban ones by creating food. In the sense of 'who supplies the wealth so that you can have a modern American style of living', bridges, roads, money to actually buy that food, etc, urban areas support rural ones.

So basically in a technical sense you're right, but in every sense that matters in modern life you're wrong.

 

[zinfamous]

Humans engineer the software and hardware. So you are right, humans are the problem and they can't engineer a solution for every condition. You should look at the human factor on both sides of the equation.

this doesn't make any sense. The predictive software is actually better than the type of decision making that humans are known to horribly fail at over and over and over again when behind the wheel. What you and others don't seem to get, is that the extremely rare cases of "random living thing or object jumping out in front of car" are such a small factor in accidents compared to the repeatedly awful decisions that only humans make when they decide to cut people off, stop short for no reason, jam themselves into an exit ramp without any real time to do it. Even so, with those sudden jump in front of car situations, a networked system of autonomous vehicles works within each other vehicle's speed envelope and would more than likely manage to reduce the overall impact--one collision instead of 2+--because every vehicle has the same, instantaneous knowledge as the one directly responding to the object.

It is no secret that human-behind-the-wheel is the problem, it is entirely tied to our individualistic nature making absolutely poor decisions in systems that are only really efficient as a cooperative hive model (think ants). it has nothing to do with programming skills.

 

[Fenixgoon]

this doesn't make any sense. The predictive software is actually better than the type of decision making that humans are known to horribly fail at over and over and over again when behind the wheel. What you and others don't seem to get, is that the extremely rare cases of "random living thing or object jumping out in front of car" are such a small factor in accidents compared to the repeatedly awful decisions that only humans make when they decide to cut people off, stop short for no reason, jam themselves into an exit ramp without any real time to do it. Even so, with those sudden jump in front of car situations, a networked system of autonomous vehicles works within each other vehicle's speed envelope and would more than likely manage to reduce the overall impact--one collision instead of 2+--because every vehicle has the same, instantaneous knowledge as the one directly responding to the object.

It is no secret that human-behind-the-wheel is the problem, it is entirely tied to our individualistic nature making absolutely poor decisions in systems that are only really efficient in a system that is actually a cooperative hive model (think ants). it has nothing to do with programming skills.

existing self-driving systems are already superior to humans, and they're only going to get better.

the bar is very low

 

[zinfamous]

existing self-driving systems are already superior to humans, and they're only going to get better.

the bar is very low

talk about a low bar: the very same humans that constantly bitch about how every other human on the road is the problem and not themselves, seem bound and determined to preserve the obviously failed human model of decision-making.

it's nuts, but then we already know that humans are completely stupid.

 

[GagHalfrunt]

existing self-driving systems are already superior to humans, and they're only going to get better.

the bar is very low

That's the point right there. Not only is the bar set low, it seems to get lower and lower every single day. I'd have more confidence that we could train dogs as chauffeurs than I would in thinking humans are ever going to pulls their heads out of their ass and pay attention to the roads. Computers will certainly driver better than people because there's pretty much no way they could do it worse.

 

[Greenman]

As if building new roads on land that can't contain them is an actual option. The primary reason for PT isn't to get more people in cars, creating even more traffic and more pollution, it's to reduce all of those problems.

Did your cost breakdown that you just read without citing take into account cost savings in lost time for commuters stuck in traffic, pollution eliminated by reduction in car traffic, things like this?

I don't recall. I'll have to try and find it again. I should also point out it wasn't my cost breakdown, I didn't have anything to do with it.
Very few are honest about the HSR. Both sides have their numbers proving it's the greatest single thing to happen to CA, or the worst boondoggle in the history of stupid. My concern is cost, cost to build and cost to operate.
Having done a fair bit of contracting work in the public sector, I'm passing familiar with how it works, and how it doesn't work. Here in CA, the Bay Bridge stands as a monument to foolish waste, stupidity, and I'd guess more than a little fraud. We were told the bridge would cost a billion dollars, it ended up at seven billion, and it has issues that could end up costing hundreds of millions more.
Long term costs are a concern as well. It's expected that the HSR will generate about 25% of it's operating budget, the 75% balance will be made up through taxes. My state taxes are already pretty high, and we have some enormous unfunded liability's already, I'm very concerned about what happens when those bills come due, as I'll be paying my share of them.

 

[realibrad]

They are throwing people off their land here in Wisconsin for FoxConn. Some of them are suing.

China is capitalism on steroids. It is the kind of capitalism that the American elite dream of. Why do you refer to it as "Communist" China?

https://www.channel3000.com/news/money/foxconn-land-dispute-property-owners-are-furious/684939655

How can government forcing people off of their private land be capitalism? If capitalism is private ownership, the government can't take it from you. That is be definition not capitalism. Come on now.

 

[Greenman]

How can government forcing people off of their private land be capitalism? If capitalism is private ownership, the government can't take it from you. That is be definition not capitalism. Come on now.

There is no such thing as ownership when speaking of land. There hasn't been for a very long time. Your "ownership" lasts until you stop paying taxes on it, or the city, county, state, or federal governments decide to force you out for the benefit of the general public.

 

[Moonbeam]

Which is especially unsettling considering that we stole it from the Indians fair and square because they didn't know about flags.

 

[Greenman]

Which is especially unsettling considering that we stole it from the Indians fair and square because they didn't know about flags.

For the want of a nail...

 

[realibrad]

There is no such thing as ownership when speaking of land. There hasn't been for a very long time. Your "ownership" lasts until you stop paying taxes on it, or the city, county, state, or federal governments decide to force you out for the benefit of the general public.

And that by definition is not capitalism. Its not inherently good or bad, but if there is not private ownership then its not capitalism. This is getting away from the point because what he said was that capitalism is the reason the government took the land, and that is absurd. He has done this before, where he tries to equate those with power taking what they want as being capitalism and its very stupid.