CA (or general other-state) Smog-Testing, Standards, Old Cars and Expectations for Keeping Them

[RLGL]

TIMING BELT replacement interval for the new CIVIC

This 4 cylinder has a Timing Chain

 

[deadlyapp]

Gee! That seems counterintuitive! All the "old" American cars, like my old 64 SS Impala, had timing-chains. So I assumed that Japanese cars simply continued the practice of using timing belts at least after and as early as I discovered use of a timing belt on my 79 CIVIC.

Of course, chains can break. I had a college friend with an old 500CC Indian motorcycle. His chain broke -- when I was riding it out among the foothills and orange groves around Riverside. A real pain in the ass. No cell-phones then -- it was 1966. Some guy in a truck happened to come along.

But I wouldn't hold my breath for a timing chain. The belt on my Trooper has a 60,000-mile expected lifespan; after that, I'm at risk if I don't have it replaced.

A motorcycle chain and a timing chain are entirely different beasts. Most timing chains are fully enclosed and not exposed to various loading like a motorcycle chain which has to change position slightly depending on the location of the rear wheel.

A timing chain should last longer than a motor in nearly all circumstances. Timing belts stretch, wear out, and can be affected even more greatly by idler pulleys and accessory pulleys. I've seen plenty of timing belts get shredded due to a shitty idler pulley freezing up which in turn ruins your top end if you have an interference engine.

Timing belt on my first car made it to around 100k before I replaced it. I got the car around 90k IIRC. It probably would have gone longer than that but I did a major overhaul at that point - replacing the oil & water pumps, the valve stem seals, all the belts, and all the oil seals I could access.

 

[NutBucket]

Chains have all sort of problems too. I don't prefer one to the other per se but it does seem that belts are better just because they're designed to be replaced. I'd rather (easily) replace something as preventative maintenance than have to deal with a PITA item that wasn't designed to be replaced. Nothing lasts forever.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

A motorcycle chain and a timing chain are entirely different beasts. Most timing chains are fully enclosed and not exposed to various loading like a motorcycle chain which has to change position slightly depending on the location of the rear wheel.

A timing chain should last longer than a motor in nearly all circumstances. Timing belts stretch, wear out, and can be affected even more greatly by idler pulleys and accessory pulleys. I've seen plenty of timing belts get shredded due to a shitty idler pulley freezing up which in turn ruins your top end if you have an interference engine.

Timing belt on my first car made it to around 100k before I replaced it. I got the car around 90k IIRC. It probably would have gone longer than that but I did a major overhaul at that point - replacing the oil & water pumps, the valve stem seals, all the belts, and all the oil seals I could access.

When I bought my 95 Trooper in 2002 with 96,000 miles, there were a whole bunch of things I didn't anticipate. Retirement was like getting out of school for the summer: it comes with an "attitude". I think my water-pump froze up in 2009; the car overheated; the radiator was damaged. Since the pump is driven by the timing belt, the timing belt broke. Towed to the mechanic, he warned me I might have damaged valves, blown head-gasket, etc. We repaired it. No damage to the engine or head-gasket. New belts, radiator, timing belt, thermostat, etc. I think I'd put 62,500 miles on the car myself, and I'm quite sure the previous owner hadn't replaced the timing belt just before he sold it. The replacement interval is 60,000 miles.

Chains have all sort of problems too. I don't prefer one to the other per se but it does seem that belts are better just because they're designed to be replaced. I'd rather (easily) replace something as preventative maintenance than have to deal with a PITA item that wasn't designed to be replaced. Nothing lasts forever.

Continuing from my answer to deadlyapp, I now track all this stuff. Luckily I'd been scanning all my shop orders into my document database since I bought the car, so it took me maybe a day or so to get the data into a spreadsheet. I think I have about 29,000 miles remaining before the belt is changed out. It's about a $500 expense. Could be a bit more now. But that has to be about 5 years away, given the annual mileage habits. Probably longer.

Well, the thread topic is smog standards and changes. This dovetails with another current thread about a Repair Shop of Horrors. I'm trying to get the gas mileage back up to spec, and making progress. I cleaned the MAP sensor -- they don't go bad, but they can get dirty. I believe that cleaning the contacts to the three wires -- one a variable signal wire -- probably gives the ECU better data. "AFTER" was better than "BEFORE" -- making sure the ECU was reset before firing it up. I think we'll make it back to the "city" spec of 14 mpg. Most of my driving at the moment is definitely "city". For that matter -- ALL of my driving at the moment.

There are absolutely no symptoms now that would suggest a bad HO2 or IAT sensor. I'll ask the mechanic. Those are really chump-change parts. I'm going on the assumption that a sensor can age and get out of calibration in such ways that it wouldn't trip the "Check engine" light, but only warp the ECU's ability to change fuel mixture on the fly. Another tank of gas, and hopes that it will show something above 13 mpg.

I'm also thinking to clean or replace the EGR valve. My smog-test NOx have gone up over the years, but only to about 40% of the MAX standard -- hovering there for the last four tests. Cleaning with success would save $135 in outright EGR-valve replacement. After that, perhaps a new catalytic converter? My new mechanic isn't too enthusiastic for these thoughts -- which is good. He wants to save me money . . .

Still debating whether to post a bad review for the Shop of Horrors on Yelp. A sense of resentment lingers . . .

 

[deadlyapp]

When I bought my 95 Trooper in 2002 with 96,000 miles, there were a whole bunch of things I didn't anticipate. Retirement was like getting out of school for the summer: it comes with an "attitude". I think my water-pump froze up in 2009; the car overheated; the radiator was damaged. Since the pump is driven by the timing belt, the timing belt broke. Towed to the mechanic, he warned me I might have damaged valves, blown head-gasket, etc. We repaired it. No damage to the engine or head-gasket. New belts, radiator, timing belt, thermostat, etc. I think I'd put 62,500 miles on the car myself, and I'm quite sure the previous owner hadn't replaced the timing belt just before he sold it. The replacement interval is 60,000 miles.



Continuing from my answer to deadlyapp, I now track all this stuff. Luckily I'd been scanning all my shop orders into my document database since I bought the car, so it took me maybe a day or so to get the data into a spreadsheet. I think I have about 29,000 miles remaining before the belt is changed out. It's about a $500 expense. Could be a bit more now. But that has to be about 5 years away, given the annual mileage habits. Probably longer.

Well, the thread topic is smog standards and changes. This dovetails with another current thread about a Repair Shop of Horrors. I'm trying to get the gas mileage back up to spec, and making progress. I cleaned the MAP sensor -- they don't go bad, but they can get dirty. I believe that cleaning the contacts to the three wires -- one a variable signal wire -- probably gives the ECU better data. "AFTER" was better than "BEFORE" -- making sure the ECU was reset before firing it up. I think we'll make it back to the "city" spec of 14 mpg. Most of my driving at the moment is definitely "city". For that matter -- ALL of my driving at the moment.

There are absolutely no symptoms now that would suggest a bad HO2 or IAT sensor. I'll ask the mechanic. Those are really chump-change parts. I'm going on the assumption that a sensor can age and get out of calibration in such ways that it wouldn't trip the "Check engine" light, but only warp the ECU's ability to change fuel mixture on the fly. Another tank of gas, and hopes that it will show something above 13 mpg.

I'm also thinking to clean or replace the EGR valve. My smog-test NOx have gone up over the years, but only to about 40% of the MAX standard -- hovering there for the last four tests. Cleaning with success would save $135 in outright EGR-valve replacement. After that, perhaps a new catalytic converter? My new mechanic isn't too enthusiastic for these thoughts -- which is good. He wants to save me money . . .

Still debating whether to post a bad review for the Shop of Horrors on Yelp. A sense of resentment lingers . . .

Generally a bad catalytic converter shouldn't affect the O2 sensor and your rich/lean mixture. You probably have an O2 sensor before the catalytic converter that is used as input to the ECU when you're not operating in open loop mode. FYI generally most cars when "Cruising" operate off standard fuel maps rather than the O2 sensor readings.

Honestly I think you're too worried about your MPG. If you want to make a big impact to it, go buy yourself a tuning box (if there's even one available) and lean out your fuel mixture, which is generally conservative from the factory. Your car is old, fuel efficiency decreases with age as piston rings wear, sludge builds up, etc. At some point you get significantly diminishing returns (is another $5-10 a week worth spending several hundred dollars and perhaps getting no real change?)

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Generally a bad catalytic converter shouldn't affect the O2 sensor and your rich/lean mixture. You probably have an O2 sensor before the catalytic converter that is used as input to the ECU when you're not operating in open loop mode. FYI generally most cars when "Cruising" operate off standard fuel maps rather than the O2 sensor readings.

Honestly I think you're too worried about your MPG. If you want to make a big impact to it, go buy yourself a tuning box (if there's even one available) and lean out your fuel mixture, which is generally conservative from the factory. Your car is old, fuel efficiency decreases with age as piston rings wear, sludge builds up, etc. At some point you get significantly diminishing returns (is another $5-10 a week worth spending several hundred dollars and perhaps getting no real change?)

No doubt you know about these things, and I am in a newly-rejuvenated learning mode. I'm kicking myself because I never fretted about any of this stuff a decade ago when I already had the factory shop manual in my possession.

I, my former/retired mechanic and my smog-test guy are amazed at this 3.2L SOHC (GM) engine, even so. I realize that there will be more blow-by with worn rings, but I neither burn oil nor leak any (after solving my broken PCV valve problem). Restoring the vacuum hose to the Fuel-Pressure Control Valve and a new PCV valve made a difference of 1.8 MPG.

Then, I cleaned the contact points for the electrical connections of the MAP sensor. Again, I notice some slight improvement in engine running at both idle and rolling speed -- after resetting the computer.

Next, again reviewing the shop manual's diagnostic guide for "excessive fuel consumption" and "Abnormal Combustion" (as referred by items in the former section), I start looking for vacuum leaks in addition to the disconnected Fuel Pressure Control Valve (to Intake Manifold). And I find this:



At each stage of this "investigation", I find improvements in either fuel mileage or engine running. I was lucky I'd bought a 2-foot length of vacuum hose to replace that for the Fuel Pressure Control. The tubing was a perfect fit for the EGR-to-VSV/Transducer and Transducer-to-VSV. Again, I notice some big changes, but only good ones. I'm going to reset the computer in a couple minutes and then run out and fill up with some more gasoline.

There's nothing much left to fix, and so far it only cost me a $9 can of Mass-Air-Flow-Cleaner, a $2 piece of vacuum hose, my time -- and --heck -- some extra gasoline.

I'll have to review again, but the EGR operation affects NOx emissions. When I run the car by the mechanic for his once-over in a couple months, I'll ask him about the HO2 Sensor, but I suspect he'll dismiss or discount the idea of any replacement.

The oldest vehicle I'd had before was 17 years old before being rear-ended and totaled. With the Trooper, we finish my 18th year of ownership and the 25th year since it came out of the factory. What I should've learned from my experience with the first car, I've relearned with the Trooper. Your independent mechanics aren't going to assist with minor vacuum hose replacements, MAP cleaning and other things. Even my now-retired mechanic was careless with doing transmission flushes from the radiator lines, so that the joint at the radiator began to leak (and cost me more money).

I'll report my gasoline consumption or MPG numbers when I'm finished with this, but I DO suspect that MPG will now increase again above 12.5. Anything close to 14 for city driving is nearly factory spec.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

A TECHNI-HOAX P-O-S
And Another Discovery Affecting Performance And Gas Mileage​

So I continue to monitor gas-mileage, but discoveries along the way prevent the most accurate measurements. The most accurate measurements should probably be taken when:

1) The ECU or ECM computer -- also the PCM or Powertrain Control Module -- has been reset.
2) The "learning" feature of the computers has been allowed time to adjust to the "new data" from sensors on the car.
3) No more discoveries of vacuum-leaks, disconnected hoses, bad PCV valves and so forth have been made.

I have also learned how to fill the gas tank at any pump of any gas-station franchise so that it tops up the tank to within an ounce or so of the previous full level. It requires a little attention. But one must keep clicking the pump handle -- gently -- several times . . . taking care that gas doesn't spill out of the fill-port, but only shows a sliver of itself at the little metal trap-door.

The fewer the number of gallons between fill-ups, the greater the likely error in the result. Now I show 12.43 Miles per Gallon, but I am assured the tank was not as full the last time.

Nor have I driven enough to assure the ECM has "got it right".

And only yesterday, did I discover this PIECE-OF-S*** installed in my intake hose between the air-filter and the intake manifold. That is -- I REDISCOVERED it. None of the prior mechanics advised me about this. And I had forgotten that I had installed it in the car, perhaps in 2004 or 2005. These things are only worth trying for gas-mileage improvement on a carbureted engine and vehicle without an ECM:

Tornado Fuel Saver

And IF you planned on using them for a FUEL INJECTED engine, they're best installed nearest the throttle body -- not at the other end close to the air-filter. FREAKIN' THINGS are NOT going to work PROPERLY with a computer-controlled engine. I HAVE the online reviews, and could post them. But I've conveyed all the necessary information here.

After discovering my loose vacuum hoses for the EGR, Back-Pressure-Transducer and VSV Vacuum-Switching Valve, I noticed the two large hose clamps near the air-filter on my intake duct. Why two? I asked. And then I remembered why.

Yanked that sucker out of there. Man! You wouldn't BA-LEEEV the better performance right off the bat.
But I want someone eventually to measure my NOx ppm so that the numbers and their accuracy are comparable to my DMV-required smog-test of December, 2019.

IS there ANY TYPE of DEVICE I can buy for less than $50 that will do that? I guess, as I "shelter-in-place" by the fire, reading Daniel Defoe's "Journal of the Plague Year", I'll send e-mail to my new mechanic and ask what can be done. I WANT . . . to SEE . . . the NUMBERS!

ADDENDUM: A "POPULAR MECHANICS" REVIEW OF FUEL-SAVER HOAX DEVICES
Including the Tornado Fuel Saver​

Upshot of the entire review, each category of item, different brands of item: These are all worthless devices. These "vortex" devices can reduce power by 10% and increase fuel consumption by 20%. PM's test of the Tornado showed no significant change either way, but my sense of it since removal suggests that it was robbing me of power and ruining gas mileage.

 

[JulesMaximus]

My son drives a 1998 Toyota 4Runner with 215k miles on it. We bought it a couple years ago and had to smog it because you have to do this when transferring between private parties. Anyway, it passed with no trouble. It has the original exhaust on it and it is completely stock. I have no idea what the numbers were nor do I care. It was purchased new in this state though so it is CA compliant, as are nearly all new cars these days. It gets pretty abysmal mileage of around 15mpg but he only drives to school and to his friend’s houses nearby so it doesn’t matter too much.

Any car 1975 or older is exempt from CA smog testing requirements. I believe the thinking is that vehicles this old and older represent a very small percentage of vehicles and a very low number of miles driven annually so there is little benefit in testing them. The 63 El Dorado and the 75 Blazer would fall into that category.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

My son drives a 1998 Toyota 4Runner with 215k miles on it. We bought it a couple years ago and had to smog it because you have to do this when transferring between private parties. Anyway, it passed with no trouble. It has the original exhaust on it and it is completely stock. I have no idea what the numbers were nor do I care. It was purchased new in this state though so it is CA compliant, as are nearly all new cars these days. It gets pretty abysmal mileage of around 15mpg but he only drives to school and to his friend’s houses nearby so it doesn’t matter too much.

Any car 1975 or older is exempt from CA smog testing requirements. I believe the thinking is that vehicles this old and older represent a very small percentage of vehicles and a very low number of miles driven annually so there is little benefit in testing them. The 63 El Dorado and the 75 Blazer would fall into that category.

When I asked my smog-test guy what might be a good replacement for my Trooper, he was quick to suggest the 4Runner, although I assume he meant one of more recent production than your son's. Even so, the Toyota line has a marvelous reputation for longevity. My Moms' old '83 Corolla was still road-worthy and a helluva peppy ride until 2016, when we couldn't find a new emissions-control device that would otherwise have cost a mere $134. They just don't make those items anymore, and a junkyard part with a rubber diaphragm would not be a good bet -- even if we were able to find one (and we weren't, anyway). So we took the cash-for-clunkers check -- a good deal for a 33-year-old Corolla with 220,000 miles on the odometer.

15 mpg would seem to me a spec mileage for a 4Runner that old. What you describe is "city" driving.

As per another recent thread I started, I'm still evaluating my own gas mileage on the Trooper, but I've made progress. Today I had a unique experience that caused me some momentary concern, even so.

The other day, "sheltering-in-place" with nothing better to do, I squirted some electronics cleaner (CRC Mass-Airflow-Sensor cleaner) into the wire holes of the connector for the Idle Air Control Valve. Then, today, I took the Trooper out to mail a letter. Coming home, I pulled up to a stop-light, and instead of just returning to the 750-rpm idle that it reliably does at a full stop, it just effing died. I could start it up, but with foot off the accelerator, it would die instead of holding 750-rpm.

By the time I got it home, the difficulty disappeared. I took it out again -- no problem. Idles at 750 warm, 1,000 cold. Checked the factory manual and some other sources, which cited a "failing" Idle Air Control Valve -- which assists the ECM in setting the proper idle for the right fuel mixture. If they "fail", they don't hold any idle speed at all. But the ECM is still "learning" after my little tweaks and fixes, and I suspect that an improved signal from the IAC valve probably threw it off. And I knew what I did with the electronics cleaner, so . . . . The part is cheap at Rockauto -- about $30. Likely, I won't have to buy one. But it's an easy part to access and replace.

 

[mopardude87]

Few friends believed me but i had a 1974 dart sport with a 8 3/4 rear end and it had the stock carter bbd 2425 2bbl carb on a 318. I tuned that thing so good and setting the timing to 0 tdc, yeah i was reliably getting 20mpg. Most slant 6 dart owners MAY get that 20mpg with the right gears. All about the gear in the rear if you wanna move efficiently.

Sorta had some of stuff though that caused major weight removed like ac duct and entire blower motor box, removed the ac compressor and all that non sense. I had plans for a 360 magnum or 383 swap and track car but i sold the car cause honestly i prefer anything pre 1970. So much dog crap electronics ignition junk and smog trash, they bogged down about every american car by 1974.

 

[Hail The Brain Slug]

Chains have all sort of problems too. I don't prefer one to the other per se but it does seem that belts are better just because they're designed to be replaced. I'd rather (easily) replace something as preventative maintenance than have to deal with a PITA item that wasn't designed to be replaced. Nothing lasts forever.

All of the timing chain failures I've heard about in modern engines were caused by failure of the tensioner (generally easily replaceable part, at least in my Civic 1.5T), failure to change oil on time (Those photos of the horrifying 30k oil change interval idiots are doing these days), or running the oil level low for extended periods.

If a timing chain is maintained and has no manufacturing defect, it should easily last 300k+ miles before it will have stretched enough to cause a problem. How much will you have spent on timing belts in that amount of time?

 

[NutBucket]

A few hours every 100k is cheap insurance

 

[BonzaiDuck]

All of the timing chain failures I've heard about in modern engines were caused by failure of the tensioner (generally easily replaceable part, at least in my Civic 1.5T), failure to change oil on time (Those photos of the horrifying 30k oil change interval idiots are doing these days), or running the oil level low for extended periods.

If a timing chain is maintained and has no manufacturing defect, it should easily last 300k+ miles before it will have stretched enough to cause a problem. How much will you have spent on timing belts in that amount of time?

(300 + 60) X [approx.] $500 = $2,500

Just the luck of the draw -- so many cars had timing belts since my '79 Hondas, I couldn't enumerate. So . . . now they've decided to use chains again?

Even so, problem with the newer cars -- I've heard that it's even near impossible to get to the spark plugs to change 'em yourself . . .

I had my tensioner replaced a while ago . . . lemmeseehere-aminute . . . OK . . . 22,000 miles ago . . .

UPDATE: Let me correct my opening estimate response. At $375 for timing-belt replacement, that would cumulatively be $1,875 over 300,000 miles. I'll probably be dead before another 100,000. Frankly, I'll only put 3,000 miles on the car per year, so 15,000 miles is five years from now . . .

 

[Hail The Brain Slug]

(300 + 60) X [approx.] $500 = $2,500

Just the luck of the draw -- so many cars had timing belts since my '79 Hondas, I couldn't enumerate. So . . . now they've decided to use chains again?

Even so, problem with the newer cars -- I've heard that it's even near impossible to get to the spark plugs to change 'em yourself . . .

I had my tensioner replaced a while ago . . . lemmeseehere-aminute . . . OK . . . 22,000 miles ago . . .

UPDATE: Let me correct my opening estimate response. At $375 for timing-belt replacement, that would cumulatively be $1,875 over 300,000 miles. I'll probably be dead before another 100,000. Frankly, I'll only put 3,000 miles on the car per year, so 15,000 miles is five years from now . . .

Manufacturing and alloys have come a long way since the 80's or 90's when timing belts were popular. Honda wouldn't use them if they couldn't reach their engine durability and lifetime targets.

Also practically every transverse mounted 4 cylinder has stupid easy sparkplugs. Generalizing something as complex as automotive design doesn't benefit anyone.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

. . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . Also practically every transverse mounted 4 cylinder has stupid easy sparkplugs. Generalizing something as complex as automotive design doesn't benefit anyone.

With the limited information I have about the latest models over the last ten years, that was just something I heard -- that they were making it hard to access plugs. So if I'm corrected, some are "this way" -- some "that way" -- or they can vary and be different?

The transverse mounted engines were indeed easy for plug change-outs. Nowadays, I don't think valve-clearances need periodic adjustment, but for my old fleet of Civics, that, too, was pretty easy.

Just to get the valve-covers off my Trooper GM, it requires removal of the intake manifold. I could've saved myself a bundle this year if I'd made deliberate time to re-torque the valve-cover bolts to spec, pre-empting the replacement of the gaskets. Now I see after puttering around the engine for several months that I might have had to remove the air-intake duct and parts connected to it to torque those bolts, and either way, I'd put it off. I still can't really be sure that I could reach all those bolts with the intake manifold still on the engine.

For me, DIY home-mechanic attentions mean learning about a particular make and model to keep it running, navigating the troubleshooting guides and diagnostics in the factory manual. That's why I'm hopeful about my new repair-shop and the owner-mechanic, because his expertise will save me a lot of time and trouble and help me avoid mistakes.

I'm pretty sure I've resolved my gas-mileage and performance problems, and it's taking an encouragingly long time to run through a tank of gas to get a better picture of it. But either way, I'm going to want someone to give the car a once-over by end-of-year. And that's complicated by this new "social-distancing" environment and risk.