CA (or general other-state) Smog-Testing, Standards, Old Cars and Expectations for Keeping Them

[BonzaiDuck]

In "Mystery Leaks and Nasty Smells" -- another current thread -- I explained how my more efficient but 25-year-old car was only getting the gas-mileage of a recent-year Hummer. Or, at least it was my understanding that these Hummers only got about 10 mpg. Still monitoring it, but it looks almost certain that I'll be showing around 13 to 14 mpg in the future.

About two years after I bought the car or around 2004, a smog-test agent told me that my 1995 SUV tested better than recent models of the same make or manufacture, the last being around 2002.

I've kept all my smog-test statistics. The state imposes a "Maximum" for different classes of vehicles for HC ppm, CO% and NOx ppm. I notice a change in the standards certainly once but possibly twice over 18 years. My car is well within the most recent standards, and I expect this should improve now that I've eliminated "Mystery Leaks and Nasty Smells".. The tests also report an "average" of vehicles in the same class as the one being tested. I'm either a little bit over or a considerable bit under under depending on HC, CO% and NOx. Assuming that the "MAX" standard or regulated maximum persists into 2022 and 2024, I should have nothing to worry about. And primarily for NOx scores, I'm not in a hurry to replace the catalytic converter.

About two months ago, I had an unusual experience. I was coming out of the local Trader Joe's grocery, when I spied the pristine 1963 Cadillac Eldorado sitting next to my 95 Trooper. A young man about 19 had acquired it from his grandmother. It had beautiful egg-nog white paint. As he drove away, I could see that it was running tip-top. 15 minutes later, I stopped for gas a block away, to find this faded-red 1985 Chevy van -- the owner filling up the tank. Rubbing compound would've made it look new, and I asked the owner if he wanted to sell it. He declined. Then, I ran out a couple miles to a deli to buy imported instant espresso. Standing on the sidewalk for a minute, I saw this beautiful two-tone 1975 Chevy Blazer pull up with white top and fire-engine red all over. I conversed with all the owners of these cars.

Now I wonder what it takes to keep such old cars registered and on the road. I know the standards are specific to year and defined classes of vehicles. The smog-test shows the state-mandated Maximum for vehicles in the same class, an Average for all such vehicles, and the Measured value for the car being tested.

How does the state manage their regulation, allowing those beautiful old cars to stay on the road -- or for that matter my 95 Trooper? A person could fuss over their old car and generously invest in its maintenance and repair, but such decisions might change in certain ways if standards are adjusted downward, even for cars with good records such as mine. That's why we had a Cash-for-Clunkers program. I'm trying to anticipate how long in years that I'll be able to keep and drive the car.

For the money and time invested, I'd hope to keep running my Trooper for five to ten years. But the world, the nation, most certainly CA state -- may be on the edge of more rapid change. I want what I invested in the car to depreciate by a straight-line schedule so my "write-off-to-myself" expires just before the car is no longer feasible as transportation. The annual increment should be no more than $1,000 per annum, and ideally somewhat less.

 

[Greenman]

As I understand it, your car has to meet the standards in effect for that year. Your 95 Trooper would have to meet 95 standards. The only time that changed that I'm aware of is a few years back when CARB harpooned diesel engines,

 

[islhopr]

I have a question ? I live in California. A few years ago I bought a dodge Stealth in Washington, which has the Federal Emissions systems on it, not California's.
I need to replace the catalytic converter, which also is a Federal Converter. What I was told I have to replace the converter that matches my original emissions! The problem I am finding is no one will ship a federal converter to Calif ! LOL! Any suggestions ?

 

[JEDIYoda]

I have a question ? I live in California. A few years ago I bought a dodge Stealth in Washington, which has the Federal Emissions systems on it, not California's.
I need to replace the catalytic converter, which also is a Federal Converter. What I was told I have to replace the converter that matches my original emissions! The problem I am finding is no one will ship a federal converter to Calif ! LOL! Any suggestions ?

go pick it up.....

 

[islhopr]

Um its shipped from across the country lol, sort of a long drive for a converter, dont know anyone close enough that lives out of state to make it possible to do that lol

 

[BonzaiDuck]

As I understand it, your car has to meet the standards in effect for that year. Your 95 Trooper would have to meet 95 standards. The only time that changed that I'm aware of is a few years back when CARB harpooned diesel engines,

Looking at my Smog Test spreadsheet from 2002 to 2020, 2004 did not show the numbers, and 2006 is missing. I see that between 2010 and 2012, the "MAX" numbers -- which I assume would be the standards and maximum allowable -- changed. So as an example, after 2010 the 15mph/25mph MAX numbers for HC-ppm changed from 86/51 to 60/36. CO% MAX changed from 0.60/0.73 to 0.42/0.51, and NOx ppm changed from 494/747 to 346/523. The 2008 (thru 2010) MAX numbers were the same as they were in 2002.

So the standards changed only once, between 2010 and 2012. I'm required to smog-test every other year. From what you say, the CARB standards were applied to both gasoline and diesel, but the diesel standards were so stringent that a lot of diesel vehicles were out of compliance. Correct me if I misunderstood.

ISLHOPR says he's in a pickle for his catalytic converter. I had been looking into this as a potential -- not current but potential problem. Again, the 15mph/25mph pairs in recent years show the highest numbers in NOx as varying around 66% and 45% of the MAX standards respectively.

There is statistical variation across the years for the MEAS(ured) numbers, and at least a handful of things would explain it. I used the same smog-test facility consistently since 2008, according to my records. Talking to the owner -- Steven -- over the years, he never fails to mention the expense of his equipment, or especially -- the years in which he had to replace old machines with new. My recollection is fairly confident that between 2008 and 2020 he had replaced his testing machine twice.

As he also mentioned, the accuracy of test machines has been increasing -- probably the reason behind his replacements.

So as I said, I was watching the catalytic converter as a replacement imperative of my own, trying to track down sources of available parts. IsuzuPartsCenter.com in Missouri shows them available for astronomic prices, depending on the part. The prices of the different related parts vary from $600 to $1,200. Those items that I can find at RockAuto.com -- not necessarily OEM but equivalent nevertheless -- are priced in the $150 to $300 range.

As a side question I submit to readers, participants -- members here, my exhaust assembly includes a "pre-converter" as well as the catalytic converter. I'm wondering whether I would need to replace only the converter, or both parts.

ISLHOPR would be lucky if he had a friend in the state in which his part is sold. They could buy it there and then send it to him. How such interventions would be "illegal", I cannot say, but the chances of detection would seem almost zero. Just my opinion. For small parts, I wouldn't even worry about covering that base. You can infer how I strategize and second-guess implications for my tax-returns, as if playing a chess game! [I "pay what I owe, no more, no less" as opposed to the presidential quote "I pay as little as possible!"]

FOR THE CURIOUS: "CARB COMPLIANCY": "CARB" stands for "California Air Resources Board". California is the only state allowed to apply its own standard, while other states can still follow that standard.

For myself, I just found a Catalytic Converter by DEC that is CARB-compliant to fit my car, for $258. One seller says "currently legal for California, but this changes day-to-day". I can't see how day-to-day changes are possible, so I wonder if the seller knows what he's talking about . . . .

This still leaves open my question about the Pre-Converter part . . .

 

[killster1]

Smog exempt vehicles can include:

• Older vehicles (Gasoline powered vehicle models from 1975 or older or diesel powered vehicles from 1997 or older)
• Electric vehicles.
• Natural gas powered vehicles with a GWR rating of more than 14,000lbs.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Is it possible to get a smog-test from a repair shop without it registering at the CA DMV, with numbers comparable to the official test? This year's test didn't tell me anything about the rich fuel mixture -- noted in another thread "Mystery Leaks and Nasty Smells". It just might be the case that this year's test would've been noticeably better, and the problems I discussed in that thread cover it up by counteracting the improvements . . . . .

 

[Sgt. York]

Go to a test station and ask them.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Go to a test station and ask them.

Actually, I did that with a special visit to my smog-test guy of 15 years. He says he can't do it, that the results are automatically submitted to CA DMV. He recommended a repair shop several blocks away. I went over there, and the proprietor doesn't inspire confidence of any kind. He wanted me to leave my car there for a whole day, just for 30 minutes of testing. Of course, given my situation, I'd rather make an appointment for some day of his choosing so that I can just appear at 8:30AM and wait. But no cigar!

Maybe I'll go back to Steven and get more succinct answers. I really don't care if a second smog-test supersedes the one I had in December -- it'll pass. But I want to see the numbers again now that I've replaced my PCV valve and reconnected the fuel-pressure control-valve to the intake manifold . . .

 

[OILFIELDTRASH]

In Texas you'd be a year or two away from being emissions testing exempt. 25 years old and up vehicles don't require it. Seems pretty archaic given the climate circumstances.

 

[JEDIYoda]

If I may toss a monkey wrench in this.....
Just because you own a 2005 or any other car that was made in aparticular year except of course those cards that are exempt your vehicle has to pass emission of the year that you test your car....for example if I have a 201 Ford and I have my car tested tomorrow then it needs to pass the emissions standards for 2020....not the year it was made!

 

[BonzaiDuck]

If I may toss a monkey wrench in this.....
Just because you own a 2005 or any other car that was made in aparticular year except of course those cards that are exempt your vehicle has to pass emission of the year that you test your car....for example if I have a 201 Ford and I have my car tested tomorrow then it needs to pass the emissions standards for 2020....not the year it was made!

Well, with due respect and the civility of C-3PO, let me humbly suggest in the shadow of the Great Almighty and The Force that the history of standards in my database of smog-test results shows no variation year-by-year. It only shows a change in MAX (allowable) between 2010 and 2011. Another of our loyal subjects to Princess Leia -- Star-Trooper Greenman -- seemed to insinuate that CARB came into being "a few years ago", and if it did, you would expect a bump and discontinuity in standards for that year. But there are no other year-to-year changes in the database: only two sets of values, all the same before 2010, and the second set all the same beginning 2011.

So consider as many holes in the sieve of possibilities as you can. If the State of California had the discretion to change the standards from year-to-year, it would seem that -- in my statistical time-series of smog-test data -- you would see where that discretion occurred, and there would be instances of it.

But . . . there are no such observations, events -- instances. So the State may have had the discretion to change standards, but the record shows it didn't do it . . . . Except for that instance consistent with Trooper Greenman's brief insinuation of CARB history.

So . . . The Force be with you. . . and . . . .Live long and prosper, Bro!

 

[JEDIYoda]

Well, with due respect and the civility of C-3PO, let me humbly suggest in the shadow of the Great Almighty and The Force that the history of standards in my database of smog-test results shows no variation year-by-year. It only shows a change in MAX (allowable) between 2010 and 2011. Another of our loyal subjects to Princess Leia -- Star-Trooper Greenman -- seemed to insinuate that CARB came into being "a few years ago", and if it did, you would expect a bump and discontinuity in standards for that year. But there are no other year-to-year changes in the database: only two sets of values, all the same before 2010, and the second set all the same beginning 2011.

So consider as many holes in the sieve of possibilities as you can. If the State of California had the discretion to change the standards from year-to-year, it would seem that -- in my statistical time-series of smog-test data -- you would see where that discretion occurred, and there would be instances of it.

But . . . there are no such observations, events -- instances. So the State may have had the discretion to change standards, but the record shows it didn't do it . . . . Except for that instance consistent with Trooper Greenman's brief insinuation of CARB history.

So . . . The Force be with you. . . and . . . .Live long and prosper, Bro!

But we do agree that it makes no difference on the year of your car other than if it is exempt for whatever reason that when the smog standards to change or are updated that all cars tht have to be smogged, are subject to those standards!!
Jedi _Bonzai has a nice ring!! Peace to you!!

 

[dawp]

If I may toss a monkey wrench in this.....
Just because you own a 2005 or any other car that was made in aparticular year except of course those cards that are exempt your vehicle has to pass emission of the year that you test your car....for example if I have a 201 Ford and I have my car tested tomorrow then it needs to pass the emissions standards for 2020....not the year it was made!

couple of points, did you mean 2011 or 2001, 'cause there were no cars in 201 and 2, they can't make you pass regulations that your car were not designed to pass, you'd probably have to replace the engine, exhaust, and other systems.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

But we do agree that it makes no difference on the year of your car other than if it is exempt for whatever reason that when the smog standards to change or are updated that all cars tht have to be smogged, are subject to those standards!!
Jedi _Bonzai has a nice ring!! Peace to you!!

Since I started the thread to get more definitive answers myself, I cannot be sure.

The fact that I could find -- within the course of 1/2 hour driving and shopping -- a 63 Eldorado, an 85 Chevy Van, and a 75 Chevy Blazer that are all street-legal in California, suggests to me that the standards vary by year the vehicle was produced, and by categories of makes and models -- for instance, SUV/truck weighing 4,000 lbs might be such a category. To see if there are differences in HC, CO and NOx Maximums among different makes and models, one would have to see the numbers by make and model.

According to our colleague here -- Greenman -- a change in overall standards occurred with "CARB", and my vehicle's specific data might suggest it happened between 2010 and 2012, or 2011. I suppose it would be a wise move to ask a smog-test pro whom you know and trust. And what California did with respect only to my vehicle -- changing an ongoing standard for several years to a stricter set of limits which seemed constant for every year since -- doesn't mean they can't change the standards at any time, but shows that they didn't.

couple of points, did you mean 2011 or 2001, 'cause there were no cars in 201 and 2, they can't make you pass regulations that your car were not designed to pass, you'd probably have to replace the engine, exhaust, and other systems.

Dawp, your remark isn't worded clearly enough for me to respond adequately. But I think what I meant was what I said to answer JediYoda above. Your second point, however, makes a lot of sense. So we need to distinguish between different fundamental categories of cars for -- say -- "this year's standards".

Every year they produce new cars for that year. It would be the least onerous or draconian thing that the state could do, to create new standards in that year for the new cars. So one category is "new cars". But those standards would persist for those particular cars as they became part of used car stock.

The classics I saw within an half-hour's outing and my own 95 Trooper are "used car stock".
When CA offered a Cash-for-Clunkers incentive for people to discard their old vehicles, they gave either $1,000 or $1,500 to each person who delivered such a vehicle to the state. This was certainly good, as example, for my old Moms' 83 Corolla in 2016, because an emissions part with diaphragm was broken, and it could not be found anywhere. It wasn't going to pass emissions tests to standards that had been applied to it consistently for years.

Further, getting the part from a junkyard might be either short-lived or a waste of money. You couldn't find it offered by Toyota anymore -- it was otherwise a $130 part. So we got a hefty little piece of change for discarding it. Even so, someone from another state may have bought it at an auction -- howsoever CA state was disposing of the old cars. It may be rolling around at this moment in Idaho for all we know. It was still a peppy ride when we handed it over.

If they had to spend those tax dollars with a federal subsidy to encourage people to let go of their old cars, then they apparently couldn't just change the standards for that particular vehicle, category and year. Otherwise, the Eldorado, the van and the Blazer would all be history by now. And that's what worried me about my Trooper.

They were somehow able to change the standard with legislation creating "CARB". And this shows the extent of my understanding of it -- an interpretation of Greenman's remarks.

Perhaps we should set up an AnandTech Garage Task Force to read the state legislation and regulation, so we could boil it down into less than a page's content. Personally, I'm not going to devote that sort of time to it if I don't need to, but we have those aspects which we can infer, and we have inputs from other members.

 

[dawp]

Since I started the thread to get more definitive answers myself, I cannot be sure.

The fact that I could find -- within the course of 1/2 hour driving and shopping -- a 63 Eldorado, an 85 Chevy Van, and a 75 Chevy Blazer that are all street-legal in California, suggests to me that the standards vary by year the vehicle was produced, and by categories of makes and models -- for instance, SUV/truck weighing 4,000 lbs might be such a category. To see if there are differences in HC, CO and NOx Maximums among different makes and models, one would have to see the numbers by make and model.

According to our colleague here -- Greenman -- a change in overall standards occurred with "CARB", and my vehicle's specific data might suggest it happened between 2010 and 2012, or 2011. I suppose it would be a wise move to ask a smog-test pro whom you know and trust. And what California did with respect only to my vehicle -- changing an ongoing standard for several years to a stricter set of limits which seemed constant for every year since -- doesn't mean they can't change the standards at any time, but shows that they didn't.



Dawp, your remark isn't worded clearly enough for me to respond adequately. But I think what I meant was what I said to answer JediYoda above. Your second point, however, makes a lot of sense. So we need to distinguish between different fundamental categories of cars for -- say -- "this year's standards".

Every year they produce new cars for that year. It would be the least onerous or draconian thing that the state could do, to create new standards in that year for the new cars. So one category is "new cars". But those standards would persist for those particular cars as they became part of used car stock.

The classics I saw within an half-hour's outing and my own 95 Trooper are "used car stock".
When CA offered a Cash-for-Clunkers incentive for people to discard their old vehicles, they gave either $1,000 or $1,500 to each person who delivered such a vehicle to the state. This was certainly good, as example, for my old Moms' 83 Corolla in 2016, because an emissions part with diaphragm was broken, and it could not be found anywhere. It wasn't going to pass emissions tests to standards that had been applied to it consistently for years.

Further, getting the part from a junkyard might be either short-lived or a waste of money. You couldn't find it offered by Toyota anymore -- it was otherwise a $130 part. So we got a hefty little piece of change for discarding it. Even so, someone from another state may have bought it at an auction -- howsoever CA state was disposing of the old cars. It may be rolling around at this moment in Idaho for all we know. It was still a peppy ride when we handed it over.

If they had to spend those tax dollars with a federal subsidy to encourage people to let go of their old cars, then they apparently couldn't just change the standards for that particular vehicle, category and year. Otherwise, the Eldorado, the van and the Blazer would all be history by now. And that's what worried me about my Trooper.

They were somehow able to change the standard with legislation creating "CARB". And this shows the extent of my understanding of it -- an interpretation of Greenman's remarks.

Perhaps we should set up an AnandTech Garage Task Force to read the state legislation and regulation, so we could boil it down into less than a page's content. Personally, I'm not going to devote that sort of time to it if I don't need to, but we have those aspects which we can infer, and we have inputs from other members.

I was trying to say that in order to pass a 2020 smog test for 2020 cars, a 2001 vehicle you have to upgrade sever systems in the 2001 car to 2020 regulation and that is not practical in most cases.

I was referencing this line from jediyoda's post:

...for example if I have a 201 Ford and I have my car tested tomorrow then it needs to pass the emissions standards for 2020....not the year it was made!

that doesn't happen when you smog test a car.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

I was trying to say that in order to pass a 2020 smog test for 2020 cars, a 2001 vehicle you have to upgrade sever systems in the 2001 car to 2020 regulation and that is not practical in most cases.

I was referencing this line from jediyoda's post:


that doesn't happen when you smog test a car.

I'm just saying, from my spreadsheet of test results every two years since 2002 and ending with the recent 2020 test, the standards only changed once. And you're correct: at least so far, CA state is not inclined to require the hypothetical upgrades of which you speak. That's not practical. There would be a political rebellion. Requiring such measures would be truly draconian.

The partner who retired with my veteran mechanic in 2018 was a Japanese fellow whose accent was so thick it was very difficult to discuss anything with him over the phone. In Japan, they require you to replace an engine in a vehicle after so many tens of thousands of miles, and Mitsuo just seemed to telegraph a belief that I should apply that logic to my car-ownership strategy or buy a new one. But the State of California is not going to force the old cars owned by po' folks off the road that way. It is certainly true -- we're a rich state, but a lot of people live from hand to mouth and drive older vehicles obtained in the necessity to get to work through urban sprawl, suffer on the freeway at morning and again at night.

I'm better off than that legion of working wounded: I don't work; my income is about twice the official poverty level; I own property here and in a mid-Atlantic state; I pay off my credit cards at the beginning of every successive month. I can't accept the idea to go into hock for a mid-range compact sedan. I know the implications of subsystem life-cycles, and with that knowledge and caution pursue a "used-car" strategy. If I have a luxury vehicle that's 25 years old, I won't be in a hurry to discard it.

I want to get from A to B. I don't need to get from A to B while broadcasting my means and wealth to people in the next lane who I'll never even meet personally. I don't want to invest in more internal combustion technology, because the day is coming when people will be left holding the bag of their remaining asset suddenly valued at nothing, or worth less as gas prices increase. If you "put your money" into a vehicle, best to put it into a used one, best not a new one that drops $5,000 or more in value the minute you drive it off the lot. You might commit to keeping an old car in good repair, but your outlays will be a fraction of this car-culture foolishness.

So I have to know what the state will do. That, in turn, would make me more confident in making my annual repair-bill budget. I, too, could be left holding the bag, and the fully electric alternatives are not nearly as plentiful right now.

Jeesh! I don't even get my Willie up when I see a Prius! Even a Prius wouldn't wick my Willie, wouldn't have the features I want. Except, perhaps, for being a "hybrid". But it's not a hybrid with the cargo space I want.

 

[RLGL]

I nursed a 2001 Neon through the years. In 2014 I bought a used Civic. The increased fuel milage plus the lack of repairs is helping to pay for the vehicle. As an added bonus I do not have to waste my time taking care of it!

 

[deadlyapp]

Um its shipped from across the country lol, sort of a long drive for a converter, dont know anyone close enough that lives out of state to make it possible to do that lol

California primary catalytic converter should fit in the stealth. I had a 91 stealth for a long time. The differences between the federal version and california version were minor. I've probably still got my repair manuals around somewhere that have the drawings with the differences.

Which year do you have? Check stealth316.com for good info.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

I nursed a 2001 Neon through the years. In 2014 I bought a used Civic. The increased fuel milage plus the lack of repairs is helping to pay for the vehicle. As an added bonus I do not have to waste my time taking care of it!

Sure. What model-year was the Civic? There will be life-cycle events for components. It's a natural process -- to be expected.

Today's March 2020 edition of the AARP newsletter features Suze Orman and her "Smart Money Action Plan", including her thoughts about automobiles. Absolutely identical to logic I've put forth here in the forum over recent months, except her example uses two 6-year cycles and 12 years, while my example uses three and 18 years.

But some vehicles are built to take a licking, and the corollary suggests that they almost last forever. I don't think your vehicles quite qualify there.

Of course, I once had a "Super Civic" (79) which had finished its 17th year. I had the outrageous big spoiler mounted above the rear window, Accord discs, Magnesium Accord wheels, 5-speed Accord tranny. At the very point and the day when someone rear-ended me at the tail-end of a traffic jam and totaled it, I had the expectation for another 10 years. The front fenders on those cars had a reputation for a rust line just in front of the door, where the fender was fortified with an inner panel, and those were easily fixed by ordering the new fender @ $60 each from JC Whitney and preparing them with a specially-chosen undercoat material.

Personally, I would've encouraged you to replace the Neon. But a Mercedes of that age, or for sure my Trooper LS, will have a lot more longevity.

 

[RLGL]

Sure. What model-year was the Civic

It was a 2013 with 10K on it. Previous life for the car was a lease vehicle. Since all I have done was change fluids. BTW the Neon had over 211K on the clock.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

It was a 2013 with 10K on it. Previous life for the car was a lease vehicle. Since all I have done was change fluids. BTW the Neon had over 211K on the clock.

That's a lot more than I would've expected for the Neon, but they're making mid-range vehicles to last longer these days. Those 79 Civics I had weren't meant to last so long for the average owner. You'd figure people would keep them for six years or so and then discard them.

I just happened to fall in with some good ol' boy mechanics from Thornburg, VA -- Dukes-of-Hazard types -- who elevated 79 CIVICs to a cult status. One guy had one with a modified engine and carburetor -- "stroker crankshaft and valve stems", Holley carburetor, a glass-pak muffler assembly. The same swap of Accord brakes, wheels and 5-speed trans that I'd made. He once took me for a short ride across a large parking lot on a Sunday when the businesses were closed down and it was deserted. I swear -- one second, we were "here" -- and a second later, we were "there". Almost scary.

Pay attention to the TIMING BELT replacement interval for the new CIVIC, and it will save you unnecessary grief. I assume 2013 vehicles use timing belts still . . . .

 

[deadlyapp]

That's a lot more than I would've expected for the Neon, but they're making mid-range vehicles to last longer these days. Those 79 Civics I had weren't meant to last so long for the average owner. You'd figure people would keep them for six years or so and then discard them.

I just happened to fall in with some good ol' boy mechanics from Thornburg, VA -- Dukes-of-Hazard types -- who elevated 79 CIVICs to a cult status. One guy had one with a modified engine and carburetor -- "stroker crankshaft and valve stems", Holley carburetor, a glass-pak muffler assembly. The same swap of Accord brakes, wheels and 5-speed trans that I'd made. He once took me for a short ride across a large parking lot on a Sunday when the businesses were closed down and it was deserted. I swear -- one second, we were "here" -- and a second later, we were "there". Almost scary.

Pay attention to the TIMING BELT replacement interval for the new CIVIC, and it will save you unnecessary grief. I assume 2013 vehicles use timing belts still . . . .

Pretty sure just about every honda since 2000 has gone to a chain.

Honda Timing Belt and Timing Chain List - Your Car Angel

This is a complete Honda timing belt and timing chain list from 1996 to the present. It also includes interference and non-interference engine information.

yourcarangel.com

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Pretty sure just about every honda since 2000 has gone to a chain.

Honda Timing Belt and Timing Chain List - Your Car Angel

This is a complete Honda timing belt and timing chain list from 1996 to the present. It also includes interference and non-interference engine information.

yourcarangel.com

Gee! That seems counterintuitive! All the "old" American cars, like my old 64 SS Impala, had timing-chains. So I assumed that Japanese cars simply continued the practice of using timing belts at least after and as early as I discovered use of a timing belt on my 79 CIVIC.

Of course, chains can break. I had a college friend with an old 500CC Indian motorcycle. His chain broke -- when I was riding it out among the foothills and orange groves around Riverside. A real pain in the ass. No cell-phones then -- it was 1966. Some guy in a truck happened to come along.

But I wouldn't hold my breath for a timing chain. The belt on my Trooper has a 60,000-mile expected lifespan; after that, I'm at risk if I don't have it replaced.