C&D: $35,000 Sports Sedans

[WinkOsmosis]

Originally posted by: SherEPunjab
mm.. i like the TL. I like the Bemer too, but my friend has a 325i, and he says it isn't peppy at all. He complains that he shoulda got the 330, but the price difference was pretty big.

I luv the G35's, but, to me, looks wise, the G35 SEDAN fails. the Coupe looks like a Zillion times better, i can't believe it would even be the same design team.

In any case, overall, i'd say the TL is best because it is peppy, and it looks good.

I guess you're used to the FWD.

 

[SherEPunjab]

Originally posted by: WinkOsmosis

Originally posted by: SherEPunjab
mm.. i like the TL. I like the Bemer too, but my friend has a 325i, and he says it isn't peppy at all. He complains that he shoulda got the 330, but the price difference was pretty big.

I luv the G35's, but, to me, looks wise, the G35 SEDAN fails. the Coupe looks like a Zillion times better, i can't believe it would even be the same design team.

In any case, overall, i'd say the TL is best because it is peppy, and it looks good.

I guess you're used to the FWD.

not something that i particularly like, no. also, the handling on the TL is very average IMHO.

but, still, for me, looks is VERY important, and it is better looking than the G35 fer sure, and i believe it is more powerful than the BMW.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: WinkOsmosis

Originally posted by: SherEPunjab
mm.. i like the TL. I like the Bemer too, but my friend has a 325i, and he says it isn't peppy at all. He complains that he shoulda got the 330, but the price difference was pretty big.

I luv the G35's, but, to me, looks wise, the G35 SEDAN fails. the Coupe looks like a Zillion times better, i can't believe it would even be the same design team.

In any case, overall, i'd say the TL is best because it is peppy, and it looks good.

I guess you're used to the FWD.

RWD is damn near a waste of time if you have no horsepower. Would you take a 120 horsepower 4000 lb car over a 280 horsepower 2600 lb car, simply because it had RWD? I'd take that BMW with FWD if it meant it had enough power to actually accelerate!

 

[SherEPunjab]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: WinkOsmosis

Originally posted by: SherEPunjab
mm.. i like the TL. I like the Bemer too, but my friend has a 325i, and he says it isn't peppy at all. He complains that he shoulda got the 330, but the price difference was pretty big.

I luv the G35's, but, to me, looks wise, the G35 SEDAN fails. the Coupe looks like a Zillion times better, i can't believe it would even be the same design team.

In any case, overall, i'd say the TL is best because it is peppy, and it looks good.

I guess you're used to the FWD.

RWD is damn near a waste of time if you have no horsepower. Would you take a 120 horsepower 4000 lb car over a 280 horsepower 2600 lb car, simply because it had RWD? I'd take that BMW with FWD if it meant it had enough power to actually accelerate!

haha, true, but I've heard that hp over 205 or so and rwd is optimal, something about control/traction.

 

[SherEPunjab]

Originally posted by: SherEPunjab

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: WinkOsmosis

Originally posted by: SherEPunjab
mm.. i like the TL. I like the Bemer too, but my friend has a 325i, and he says it isn't peppy at all. He complains that he shoulda got the 330, but the price difference was pretty big.

I luv the G35's, but, to me, looks wise, the G35 SEDAN fails. the Coupe looks like a Zillion times better, i can't believe it would even be the same design team.

In any case, overall, i'd say the TL is best because it is peppy, and it looks good.

I guess you're used to the FWD.

RWD is damn near a waste of time if you have no horsepower. Would you take a 120 horsepower 4000 lb car over a 280 horsepower 2600 lb car, simply because it had RWD? I'd take that BMW with FWD if it meant it had enough power to actually accelerate!

haha, true, but I've heard that hp over 205 or so and rwd is optimal, something about control/traction.

basically, what Im saying is, short of the 330, you won't get you cake and eat it too with the sub 35k options, imo. i don't think you can have it all, but the TL comes close imo.

 

[OS]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: WinkOsmosis

Originally posted by: SherEPunjab
mm.. i like the TL. I like the Bemer too, but my friend has a 325i, and he says it isn't peppy at all. He complains that he shoulda got the 330, but the price difference was pretty big.

I luv the G35's, but, to me, looks wise, the G35 SEDAN fails. the Coupe looks like a Zillion times better, i can't believe it would even be the same design team.

In any case, overall, i'd say the TL is best because it is peppy, and it looks good.

I guess you're used to the FWD.

RWD is damn near a waste of time if you have no horsepower. Would you take a 120 horsepower 4000 lb car over a 280 horsepower 2600 lb car, simply because it had RWD? I'd take that BMW with FWD if it meant it had enough power to actually accelerate!

he drives a rwd "sports car" that would get pulled on by a stick civic DX, you can't expect him to understand.

 

[SherEPunjab]

Originally posted by: OS

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: WinkOsmosis

Originally posted by: SherEPunjab
mm.. i like the TL. I like the Bemer too, but my friend has a 325i, and he says it isn't peppy at all. He complains that he shoulda got the 330, but the price difference was pretty big.

I luv the G35's, but, to me, looks wise, the G35 SEDAN fails. the Coupe looks like a Zillion times better, i can't believe it would even be the same design team.

In any case, overall, i'd say the TL is best because it is peppy, and it looks good.

I guess you're used to the FWD.

RWD is damn near a waste of time if you have no horsepower. Would you take a 120 horsepower 4000 lb car over a 280 horsepower 2600 lb car, simply because it had RWD? I'd take that BMW with FWD if it meant it had enough power to actually accelerate!

he drives a rwd "sports car" that would get pulled on by a stick civic DX, you can't expect him to understand.

damn, he said his 325i was slow. are they that slow? shieesh.

 

[z0mb13]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: WinkOsmosis

Originally posted by: SherEPunjab
mm.. i like the TL. I like the Bemer too, but my friend has a 325i, and he says it isn't peppy at all. He complains that he shoulda got the 330, but the price difference was pretty big.

I luv the G35's, but, to me, looks wise, the G35 SEDAN fails. the Coupe looks like a Zillion times better, i can't believe it would even be the same design team.

In any case, overall, i'd say the TL is best because it is peppy, and it looks good.

I guess you're used to the FWD.

RWD is damn near a waste of time if you have no horsepower. Would you take a 120 horsepower 4000 lb car over a 280 horsepower 2600 lb car, simply because it had RWD? I'd take that BMW with FWD if it meant it had enough power to actually accelerate!

skoorb u ever driven a 325? its by no means SLOW

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: z0mb13

Originally posted by: Skoorbskoorb u ever driven a 325? its by no means SLOW

Only an automatic, which was slower than a schoolbus, but you merely need to look at the numbers to know that it's not going to be fast. 185 HP + 3200 != fast. If I was going to spend $35k on a sports sedan I'd want something that isn't going to get thrashed at the lights/highway by a maxima (which is not only larger, but also cheaper).

 

[KokomoGST]

A 325 isn't that fast either though... but the 330? Totally different story! I personally have driven most of the cars on the list except for mebbe the new TL and the IS would be my choice mainly because of the way it drives... it's very forgiving and easy to drive at the limit.

I never actually drove the G35 but having driven the 350Z, if it's anything like it's sibling. It's a great car... and C/D says it was well-mannered I can understand the result. The Z was a beast to drive fast... the IS was cakewalk to drive fast. I can see why the 325 did so well, it is a great car though a tad underpowered compared to it's competition. The 330i would have been a better choice as it starts just under $35k.

Since the roundup was SEDANS I can understand the outcome since the GTO isn't available as a 4dr in the US.

 

[OS]

Originally posted by: z0mb13

skoorb u ever driven a 325? its by no means SLOW

I saw one at my local drag strip before. It ran 16.3 or so, it was probably an auto because of the entire run was smooth. I guess thats not terribly slow for a street car, but seriously, stick shift corollas are about that fast these days.

 

[SuperTool]

325i's power delivery is comparable to 3L engines from competitors, which is impressive. The problem for BMW is that the competition has moved to 3.5L, and sub 3L 6 cylinder engines aren't gonna cut it anymore. They need to make a 3.5L engine and bump their inline 6 engines up by 0.5L across the board.

 

[The Sauce]

Originally posted by: Techie333
I've got to admit tho......mercedes definately has some quality control problems right now.....seems like it ever since they merged w/ chrysler........

There's a surprise.

Chrysler having quality problems...

 

[KokomoGST]

Originally posted by: SuperTool
325i's power delivery is comparable to 3L engines from competitors, which is impressive. The problem for BMW is that the competition has moved to 3.5L, and sub 3L 6 cylinder engines aren't gonna cut it anymore. They need to make a 3.5L engine and bump their inline 6 engines up by 0.5L across the board.

You have to remember that a 3.5L I-6 would be a pretty friggin big engine not to mention that even the vaunted M3 is only 3.2L but stomps out 330bhp and the CSL is tweaked for 360 from the same displacement.

The 330i does well with only 3.0L and around 225bhp and BMW has always tended to be a bit more pricey than the competition. Strange that they left the purebred rally sedans out of the mix. Then again, that's kinda like comparing apples to oranges.

 

[WinkOsmosis]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: WinkOsmosis

Originally posted by: SherEPunjab
mm.. i like the TL. I like the Bemer too, but my friend has a 325i, and he says it isn't peppy at all. He complains that he shoulda got the 330, but the price difference was pretty big.

I luv the G35's, but, to me, looks wise, the G35 SEDAN fails. the Coupe looks like a Zillion times better, i can't believe it would even be the same design team.

In any case, overall, i'd say the TL is best because it is peppy, and it looks good.

I guess you're used to the FWD.

RWD is damn near a waste of time if you have no horsepower. Would you take a 120 horsepower 4000 lb car over a 280 horsepower 2600 lb car, simply because it had RWD? I'd take that BMW with FWD if it meant it had enough power to actually accelerate!

Is the RWD in the G35 a waste? I don't see how you can say it's ugly.. It's not the best looking car, but it doesn't look any worse than the coupe.

As for my car being slow.. well yeah it's slow. Since when does that make it not a sports car? I'll be damned if a 66-33FR, FWD Civic is more of a sports car than my 240sx, a Miata, or one of them old British roadsters. Besides, remember, it was made in 1994. The iconic Z of that era only had 200hp (or was it 190?).

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: WinkOsmosis

Is the RWD in the G35 a waste? I don't see how you can say it's ugly.. It's not the best looking car, but it doesn't look any worse than the coupe.

As for my car being slow.. well yeah it's slow. Since when does that make it not a sports car? I'll be damned if a 66-33FR, FWD Civic is more of a sports car than my 240sx, a Miata, or one of them old British roadsters.

No, it's not a waste in the G35 because it has power. It's "damn near" a waste in the BMW, because it's a slow dog of a vehicle. Looks are purely subjective.

As for my car being slow.. well yeah it's slow. Since when does that make it not a sports car?

Er, I think you didn't really read that before typing it What exactly makes the miata a sports car, besides being able to handle well? It's tiny, which doesn't mean it's a sports car, and it's slow, which is contradictory to the sports car ideal. Commercials may call it a sports car, but it would lose to any number of family sedans in all but the tightest of race tracks.

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: KokomoGST

Originally posted by: SuperTool
325i's power delivery is comparable to 3L engines from competitors, which is impressive. The problem for BMW is that the competition has moved to 3.5L, and sub 3L 6 cylinder engines aren't gonna cut it anymore. They need to make a 3.5L engine and bump their inline 6 engines up by 0.5L across the board.

You have to remember that a 3.5L I-6 would be a pretty friggin big engine not to mention that even the vaunted M3 is only 3.2L but stomps out 330bhp and the CSL is tweaked for 360 from the same displacement.

The 330i does well with only 3.0L and around 225bhp and BMW has always tended to be a bit more pricey than the competition. Strange that they left the purebred rally sedans out of the mix. Then again, that's kinda like comparing apples to oranges.

I guess people are just going to have to accept BMW's being underpowered then, because the I6's just don't scale as well as the V6's.
Keep in mind that Nissan is releasing a 4L VQ on the next pathfinder and frontier. Assuming they can tune it to produce the same HP/L as the 3.5L VQ in G35, we are looking at 320 HP 310 lbft of torque. That is M3 territory. Nissan can go places with its V6 where BMW's I6 can't follow.

 

[StageLeft]

Nissan can go places with its V6 where BMW's I6 can't follow.

They already have

 

[mAdD INDIAN]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: WinkOsmosis

Is the RWD in the G35 a waste? I don't see how you can say it's ugly.. It's not the best looking car, but it doesn't look any worse than the coupe.

As for my car being slow.. well yeah it's slow. Since when does that make it not a sports car? I'll be damned if a 66-33FR, FWD Civic is more of a sports car than my 240sx, a Miata, or one of them old British roadsters.

No, it's not a waste in the G35 because it has power. It's "damn near" a waste in the BMW, because it's a slow dog of a vehicle. Looks are purely subjective.

As for my car being slow.. well yeah it's slow. Since when does that make it not a sports car?

Er, I think you didn't really read that before typing it What exactly makes the miata a sports car, besides being able to handle well? It's tiny, which doesn't mean it's a sports car, and it's slow, which is contradictory to the sports car ideal. Commercials may call it a sports car, but it would lose to any number of family sedans in all but the tightest of race tracks.

A sports car is a car that instills thrill in you when you drive it. It could be a big block 427 Yenko Camaro or it could be a 110hp Triumph Spitfire. Doesn't matter.

You guys have butchered the meaning of a sports car. You can't just have one meaning for the term 'sports car'. It depends on the application. A Camaro is just as sporty as a Miata which is just as sporty as a Caterham 7.

In this category of small-midize sporty sedans, I think these cars have to present a total package: luxury/comfort, brute power, and handling. And there has to be a fine balance of these three things. A 325i is probably very rewarding to drive on a curvy road, but its not very rewarding when you have to accelerate on the highway to pass a trio of slow drivers (and Skoorb, I know you enjoy flooring the Maxima on the highway..that VQ just pulls).

Now in the case of a small roadster, you don't really expect power, but in a $35k sports sedan that tries to be everything, its needed.

Thats my take on that.

 

[OS]

Originally posted by: WinkOsmosis

Is the RWD in the G35 a waste? I don't see how you can say it's ugly.. It's not the best looking car, but it doesn't look any worse than the coupe.

As for my car being slow.. well yeah it's slow. Since when does that make it not a sports car? I'll be damned if a 66-33FR, FWD Civic is more of a sports car than my 240sx, a Miata, or one of them old British roadsters. Besides, remember, it was made in 1994. The iconic Z of that era only had 200hp (or was it 190?).

Well damn, then an ATV must also be a sports car. RWD and near 50/50 weight distribution.

The turbo 300ZX of the 90s made 300 hp. The integra GSR of that era was also faster than the 240 all around (despite it being FWD and all).

 

[WinkOsmosis]

Originally posted by: OS

Originally posted by: WinkOsmosis

Is the RWD in the G35 a waste? I don't see how you can say it's ugly.. It's not the best looking car, but it doesn't look any worse than the coupe.

As for my car being slow.. well yeah it's slow. Since when does that make it not a sports car? I'll be damned if a 66-33FR, FWD Civic is more of a sports car than my 240sx, a Miata, or one of them old British roadsters. Besides, remember, it was made in 1994. The iconic Z of that era only had 200hp (or was it 190?).

Well damn, then an ATV must also be a sports car. RWD and near 50/50 weight distribution.

The turbo 300ZX of the 90s made 300 hp. The integra GSR of that era was also faster than the 240 all around (despite it being FWD and all).

The 300zx TT made 300hp. What doe sthe Integra GSR being faster mean? FWD won't make a car slower unless it has enough hp that the weight transfer matters.

 

[StageLeft]

The NA 300Z of the early 90's had 222 horsepower, same as my maxima, though lower torque.

 

[Mill]

Without reading this thread I predict Skoorb said something about the 325 being dog slow. Now I only made this prediction because I saw he was the last person to reply to the thread when I was surfing OT. I'll read it later to see if he actually said it or not.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: Mill
Without reading this thread I predict Skoorb said something about the 325 being dog slow. Now I only made this prediction because I saw he was the last person to reply to the thread when I was surfing OT. I'll read it later to see if he actually said it or not.

I don't believe you didn't read at least my post saying how it was a dog slow pos Be honest!

 

[Mill]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: Mill
Without reading this thread I predict Skoorb said something about the 325 being dog slow. Now I only made this prediction because I saw he was the last person to reply to the thread when I was surfing OT. I'll read it later to see if he actually said it or not.

I don't believe you didn't read at least my post saying how it was a dog slow pos Be honest!

Nah I really figured you would say that. I read the article earlier today, and when I saw they used the 325 instead of the 330 I knew you would cuss it out. I should have posted then instead of waiting...