By the way, what was it Reagan did

[daveshel]

It has been stated repeatedly in the last several days that Reagan was credited as being responsible for the end of the cold war. I don't exactly remember it that way. So, he had friendly relations with Gorbachev, but what actual steps did he take in terms of programs or policies that had anything to do with the breakup of the Soviet Union or tearing down the Berlin Wall?

My analysis was that the cold war ended because it had simply run its course. Other changes around the world including the pervasion of instantaneous global communication and computer technology eroded the ideological differences between the capitalist and communist systems. In the end it became too expensive for the communist system to enforce its ideology, both in terms of the cost of wars as well as the opportunity cost of missed business opportunities.

What did Reagan have to do with any of this?

 

[Infohawk]

There will probably be some arguments that he helped hasten the end of the Cold War. I don't see it either. As I see it, the Soviets disbanded themselves. It wasn't a popular movement, it had always been the ideology of the few ruling over Russia et al. So when THEY decided it was over, THEY ended it. This is why a lot of people dislike Gorbachev there, not Reagan.

Hawks like to say the military spending put them out of existance. I don't buy it. We had high spending before. The space race didn't put them out of business, why would anyone think the star wars race would either?

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

I actually know several Russians who lived through the Soviet era (one of whom is now in his late 70s, and spent his whole life in the USSR), and they pretty much all give Reagan credit for this. In particular, the Strategic Defense Initiative (aka "Star Wars") program got the Soviets so rattled that they heavily overleveraged their economy on military expenditures, and thus their regime collapsed. This morning they interviewed one of Gorbachev's top aides on NPR, and he essentially said the same thing.

I was too young to vote in 1980 or 1984, and I probably wouldn't have voted for Reagan if I could have, but there's no question he was pivotal in crushing the Soviet Union.

 

[Perknose]

Popcorn, anyone? I'm making a ton. Got a great seat, too.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: Perknose
Popcorn, anyone? I'm making a ton. Got a great seat, too.

I don't think there will be much in the way of fireworks. I'm not going to argue on behalf of Reagan, who I was no fan of, and I am no expert in Cold War history. That said, as I said above, the Soviets I know definitely give Reagan credit for bringing down the "evil empire".

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: Don_Vito
I actually know several Russians who lived through the Soviet era (one of whom is now in his late 70s, and spent his whole life in the USSR), and they pretty much all give Reagan credit for this. In particular, the Strategic Defense Initiative (aka "Star Wars") program got the Soviets so rattled that they heavily overleveraged their economy on military expenditures, and thus their regime collapsed. This morning they interviewed one of Gorbachev's top aides on NPR, and he essentially said the same thing.

I was too young to vote in 1980 or 1984, and I probably wouldn't have voted for Reagan if I could have, but there's no question he was pivotal in crushing the Soviet Union.

Interesting yet anecdotal (less so for the Gorbachev top aid comments which are more convincing). Also, I don't remember the specifics but wasn't SDI pretty much abandoned by the time the Soviet Union collapsed? Reagan was out of office at that point. I'm not saying that means he didn't create effects, but it makes me think they weren't so rattled as that if it took them a couple years to act. Speacking of public media, there was a great frontline about this in the nineties. What I got out of it was that basiscally they were drunk at a party / Gorbachev dismantled it from the inside. I think their rise and collapse was more attributable to it being controlled by a small group than anything else.

 

[Fingolfin269]

Originally posted by: Don_Vito

Originally posted by: Perknose
Popcorn, anyone? I'm making a ton. Got a great seat, too.

I don't think there will be much in the way of fireworks. I'm not going to argue on behalf of Reagan, who I was no fan of, and I am no expert in Cold War history. That said, as I said above, the Soviets I know definitely give Reagan credit for bringing down the "evil empire".

What 13 year old (at the most!) could really know whether Reagan was worth voting for in 1980?

 

[shiner]

Originally posted by: Infohawk
There will probably be some arguments that he helped hasten the end of the Cold War. I don't see it either. As I see it, the Soviets disbanded themselves. It wasn't a popular movement, it had always been the ideology of the few ruling over Russia et al. So when THEY decided it was over, THEY ended it. This is why a lot of people dislike Gorbachev there, not Reagan.

:roll:

Let's see what Gorbachev had to say about Reagan

Gorbachev listed Reagan?s accomplishments as helping to ?stop the nuclear race, start scrapping nuclear weapons, and arrange normal relations between our countries,? he was quoted as saying.

?I do not know how other statesmen would have acted at that moment, because the situation was too difficult. Reagan, whom many considered extremely rightist, dared to make these steps, and this is his most important deed,? he was quoted as saying."

from another article...

MIKHAIL GORBACHEV (translated): My aide called and told me and I immediately thought, another person has left this world who left behind a giant footprint. And I thought probably this is a relief for him, ten hard years for him. It's a very difficult fate.

And then I began to remember our meetings. I actually think he is a great President, regardless of whether he was from the right wing, that we considered him a hawk. But he had foresight, intuition and determination that together we could eliminate nuclear weapons.

From still another...

The last Soviet boss spoke at his western Moscow office of the Gorbachev Foundation, an analytical organization he has run since 1992.

Those were years, Gorbachev said, "when everyone felt that we lived under the threat of nuclear conflict, and it felt as if the arms race was spiraling out of control, that we couldn't control the military machine properly."

"He has already entered history as a man who was instrumental in bringing about the end of the Cold War," he added, his voice often falling to near-inaudible levels as he spoke in a room lined with memorabilia.

One photo shows him and Reagan gesturing animatedly outside St. Basil's Cathedral in Moscow's Red Square.

Despite Reagan's often-forceful statements against the Soviet Union, Gorbachev said he also had a personal warmth that bolstered their relations.

"In terms of human qualities, he and I had, you would say, communicativeness and this helped us carry on normally," Gorbachev said.

"But when you talk about friendly relations in politics, it's not the friendship of schoolmates," he said.

The former U.S. president issued his historic "evil empire" remark in 1983, before Gorbachev took power from the obscurity of the backbenches of the ruling Soviet politburo where he held the agriculture portfolio.

"He was sincere!" Gorbachev said of Reagan's rhetoric.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: Fingolfin269

What 13 year old (at the most!) could really know whether Reagan was worth voting for in 1980?

When did I say I knew whether he was worth voting for in 1980? By the time he left office, I was 18, and old enough to form my own opinions of his performance (and to vote in the 1988 election). Based on who I am today, I doubt I would ever have voted for Reagan (unless he was up against an obviously lame candidate, a la Dukakis.

 

[shiner]

How about what some ordinary Russians and others who lived in Communist countries at the time have to say about Reagan...

Immigrants from former Soviet Union mourn Reagan

GILLIAN FLACCUS

Associated Press


LOS ANGELES - Rabbi Velvel Tsikman remembers a time when the only link he had to his Jewish heritage was a line in his Soviet passport that read: "Nationality: Jewish."

Now, Tsikman - who in the former Soviet Union was forbidden to wear a yarmulke - watches over a vibrant Russian Jewish community in West Hollywood from his office at the Chabad Russian Jewish Community Center.

Tsikman says he credits his spiritual freedom to the late Ronald Reagan, whose anti-missile program drew the Soviets into a costly arms race, helping lead to the collapse of what Reagan called the "evil empire." His 1987 demand to Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev at the Berlin Wall - "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall" - was the ultimate challenge of the Cold War.

Tsikman recalled with emotion the first time a Jewish synagogue opened in the Ukraine after years of religious oppression. He began to wear a yarmulke openly and grow his beard; he soon veered from a career in computers to the spiritual life of a rabbi.

"It was like going from the basement to the street and seeing the light," Tsikman said. "(Reagan's) doctrine, what he did, was very helpful to destroy the monster that was there in Europe."

Those sentiments were echoed across Southern California, home to large Russian and Eastern European immigrant communities. They were also reflected in poignant signs and flags placed outside the Santa Monica mortuary where Reagan's body was taken after his death Saturday at age 93.

Lithuanian and Polish flags sprouted from the grass. Posters paying homage to Reagan - some decorated with pieces of the Berlin Wall - sat propped against a fountain alongside flowers and balloons.

"Sir - You told Gorbachev to 'Take down this wall.' We helped. Thanks for your courage and leadership," read one sign that was affixed with two quarter-sized bits of the Berlin Wall.

[/b]Another sign, accompanied by a Lithuanian flag, read: "President Reagan, Thank you for Lithuanian freedom." Still another said: "Solidarnosc! With love from Poland," a reference to Reagan's efforts to promote the Solidarity labor movement in Poland in the 1980s.[/b]

Pope John Paul II sent a message Tuesday to Nancy Reagan, expressing "deep gratitude" for her late husband's commitment to the cause of freedom in the world and his work to help end the Soviet grip on eastern Europe.

In West Hollywood, Tsikman has for 12 years watched over the Russian Jewish community center, an anchor for up to 50,000 Soviet bloc immigrants in greater Los Angeles. The neighborhood is dotted with Russian, Ukranian and Armenian groceries, pharmacies and video stores, and people speak more Russian than English.

Dozens of seniors chatted Tuesday about the impact Reagan had on their lives.

"This is a guy who changed the world. It wasn't only his speeches - it was his actions," said Aleksandr Shakhnovich, 57, a former shipbuilder for the Soviet navy.

"He cut down the economy of the USSR and it was one of the main reasons the country just shut down. He did something that not only changed my life, but changed the lives of everyone in the former Soviet Union."

Down the street, Armenian grocer Paul Khostikyan paused from unloading fresh fruit to remember the man he called "the best president in U.S. history."

Khostikyan, 54, who immigrated in 1990, said he remembered Reagan's famous speech at the Berlin Wall - and recalled being moved by his bold words.

"I liked how he talked about freedom," said Khostikyan, now a U.S. citizen. "He really meant it, not like other presidents. He will be in history much more than Clinton or Bush."

At the community center, Tsikman brushed his finger against his yarmulke and watched contentedly as dozens of elderly people ate at long tables, laughing and chatting in Russian.

"They are living in a paradise here. It's like God is paying them for a terrible life in Russia," Tsikman said. "These people were sitting home waiting to die. When they came here, they came alive again."

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: shinerburke

Originally posted by: Infohawk
There will probably be some arguments that he helped hasten the end of the Cold War. I don't see it either. As I see it, the Soviets disbanded themselves. It wasn't a popular movement, it had always been the ideology of the few ruling over Russia et al. So when THEY decided it was over, THEY ended it. This is why a lot of people dislike Gorbachev there, not Reagan.

:roll:

Let's see what Gorbachev had to say about Reagan

Gorbachev listed Reagan?s accomplishments as helping to ?stop the nuclear race, start scrapping nuclear weapons, and arrange normal relations between our countries,? he was quoted as saying.

?I do not know how other statesmen would have acted at that moment, because the situation was too difficult. Reagan, whom many considered extremely rightist, dared to make these steps, and this is his most important deed,? he was quoted as saying."

Instead of rolling your eyes, why don't you read the original post closer? The question was not about nuclear weapons and disarmement, it was about ending COld war (read soviet union).

And according to the most convincing pro-reagan arguments, your statement actually argues against them. It suggests Gorby wasn't scared of Reagan and scared into dismantling the Soviet Union. Try reading closer instead of spending so much time choosing emoticons.

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: shinerburke
Immigrants from former Soviet Union mourn Reagan

Again, this is anecdotal evidence. And let's consider the source: people that have immigrated to America in an article applauding the president. They will tend to say very kind things about Reagan in this environment. Again, I'm not so clear on how the arms race, that had been going on for decades and included a costly space race, ended everything a couple years after Reagan was out of office.

 

[shiner]

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: shinerburke

Originally posted by: Infohawk
There will probably be some arguments that he helped hasten the end of the Cold War. I don't see it either. As I see it, the Soviets disbanded themselves. It wasn't a popular movement, it had always been the ideology of the few ruling over Russia et al. So when THEY decided it was over, THEY ended it. This is why a lot of people dislike Gorbachev there, not Reagan.

:roll:

Let's see what Gorbachev had to say about Reagan

Gorbachev listed Reagan?s accomplishments as helping to ?stop the nuclear race, start scrapping nuclear weapons, and arrange normal relations between our countries,? he was quoted as saying.

?I do not know how other statesmen would have acted at that moment, because the situation was too difficult. Reagan, whom many considered extremely rightist, dared to make these steps, and this is his most important deed,? he was quoted as saying."

Instead of rolling your eyes, why don't you read the original post closer? The question was not about nuclear weapons and disarmement, it was about ending COld war (read soviet union).

And according to the most convincing pro-reagan arguments, your statement actually argues against them. It suggests Gorby wasn't scared of Reagan and scared into dismantling the Soviet Union. Try reading closer instead of spending so much time choosing emoticons.

You can try and spin it any way you want....however you are wrong.....Reagan has been credited by many many many people, scholars, historians, world leaders, etc.... for bringing about the end of the Cold War. He approched it unlike any U.S. President before him....instead of simply playing to stay even or not to lose he was determined to rebuild the military and win the Cold War once and for all.

 

[etech]

Tear down this Wall

 

[shiner]

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: shinerburke
Immigrants from former Soviet Union mourn Reagan

Again, this is anecdotal evidence. And let's consider the source: people that have immigrated to America in an article applauding the president. They will tend to say very kind things about Reagan in this environment. Again, I'm not so clear on how the arms race, that had been going on for decades and included a costly space race, ended everything a couple years after Reagan was out of office.

Spin! Spin! Spin! Spin!
Lovely Spiiiiin Wonderful Spiiin!
Lovely Spiiiiin! Wonderful Spiin.
Spi-i-i-i-i-i-i-in.
Spi-i-i-i-i-i-i-in.
Spi-i-i-i-i-i-i-in.
Spi-i-i-i-i-i-i-in.

Lovely Spiiiiin! (Lovely Spim!)
Lovely Spiiiiin! (Lovely Spim!)
Lovely Spiiin!

Spiiin, Spiiin, Spiiin, Spiiiiiin!

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: shinerburke

You can try and spin it any way you want....however you are wrong.....Reagan has been credited by many many many people, scholars, historians, world leaders, etc.... for bringing about the end of the Cold War. He approched it unlike any U.S. President before him....instead of simply playing to stay even or not to lose he was determined to rebuild the military and win the Cold War once and for all.

Your conclusion is that Reagan ended the cold war. Your arguments in support of this position seem to be that many people believe it is so and that Reagan had different motives than other presidents. The fact that many people believe Reagan ended the cold war in no way shows that Regan actually ended the cold war. Also, it's not clear how Reagan's approach was different than other presidents or how this ended the cold war. We had ups and downs in expenditures through the cold war. This was an up period.

 

[shiner]

I wonder what that icon of the left Ted Kennedy has to say about Reagan....

Sen. Edward Kennedy, D-Mass: ?We often disagreed on issues of the day, but I had immense respect and admiration for his leadership and his extraordinary ability to inspire the nation to live up to its high ideals. The warmth of his personality always shown through, and his infectious optimism gave us all the feeling that it really was ?morning in America.? On foreign policy he will be honored as the President who won the Cold War, and his ?Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall? will be linked forever with President Kennedy?s ?Ich bin ein Berliner.?"

 

[shiner]

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: shinerburke

You can try and spin it any way you want....however you are wrong.....Reagan has been credited by many many many people, scholars, historians, world leaders, etc.... for bringing about the end of the Cold War. He approched it unlike any U.S. President before him....instead of simply playing to stay even or not to lose he was determined to rebuild the military and win the Cold War once and for all.

Your conclusion is that Reagan ended the cold war. Your arguments in support of this position seem to be that many people believe it is so and that Reagan had different motives than other presidents. The fact that many people believe Reagan ended the cold war in no way shows that Regan actually ended the cold war. Also, it's not clear how Reagan's approach was different than other presidents or how this ended the cold war. We had ups and downs in expenditures through the cold war. This was an up period.

I think you need to read the link in your sig

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: shinerburke

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: shinerburke
Immigrants from former Soviet Union mourn Reagan

Again, this is anecdotal evidence. And let's consider the source: people that have immigrated to America in an article applauding the president. They will tend to say very kind things about Reagan in this environment. Again, I'm not so clear on how the arms race, that had been going on for decades and included a costly space race, ended everything a couple years after Reagan was out of office.

Spin! Spin! Spin! Spin!
Lovely Spiiiiin Wonderful Spiiin!
Lovely Spiiiiin! Wonderful Spiin.
Spi-i-i-i-i-i-i-in.
Spi-i-i-i-i-i-i-in.
Spi-i-i-i-i-i-i-in.
Spi-i-i-i-i-i-i-in.

Lovely Spiiiiin! (Lovely Spim!)
Lovely Spiiiiin! (Lovely Spim!)
Lovely Spiiin!

Spiiin, Spiiin, Spiiin, Spiiiiiin!

How do you define spin?

You started out with an antogonistic smiley face and now you are doing the adult equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and saying, "nah nah nah nah nah" Weren't you the one that started a thread about pissing matches and politeness on this board?

 

[daveshel]

Actually this was on my mind after a conversation with a co-worker who came to the US from Russia a couple years ago, a guy who, like me, grew up in the 60s. He wasn't buying the idea of giving Reagan credit, either.

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: shinerburke

Your conclusion is that Reagan ended the cold war. Your arguments in support of this position seem to be that many people believe it is so and that Reagan had different motives than other presidents. The fact that many people believe Reagan ended the cold war in no way shows that Regan actually ended the cold war. Also, it's not clear how Reagan's approach was different than other presidents or how this ended the cold war. We had ups and downs in expenditures through the cold war. This was an up period.

I think you need to read the link in your sig[/quote]

I write four sentences in which I don't insult you but I simply address your argument. Your response is to make a quip. If you're not interested in discussing the issues, what are you doing here?

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: daveshel
Actually this was on my mind after a conversation with a co-worker who came to the US from Russia a couple years ago, a guy who, like me, grew up in the 60s. He wasn't buying the claim pf giving Reagan credit, either.

The problem with this, of course, is that it really isn't provable one way or the other. It seems to me that Gorbachev and his cabinet are the best available resources if one wants proof, and they seem to credit Reagan. I credit Reagan for winning the cold war, although I was generally not a fan. Still, this is a complex question, and there were no doubt many overlapping factors that led to the demise of the USSR, so I don't think there's any way of knowing for sure.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Maybe more like what you are asking for

 

[shiner]

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: shinerburke

Your conclusion is that Reagan ended the cold war. Your arguments in support of this position seem to be that many people believe it is so and that Reagan had different motives than other presidents. The fact that many people believe Reagan ended the cold war in no way shows that Regan actually ended the cold war. Also, it's not clear how Reagan's approach was different than other presidents or how this ended the cold war. We had ups and downs in expenditures through the cold war. This was an up period.

I think you need to read the link in your sig

I write four sentences in which I don't insult you but I simply address your argument. Your response is to make a quip. If you're not interested in discussing the issues, what are you doing here?[/quote]

It's obvious you aren't willing to listen. I post info from people who either knew Reagan or were helped by his policies and you dismiss them as being anecdotal instead of bothering to take into account what other people WHO WERE INVOLVED have to say. You also refuse to be bothered with the mountains of historical information about Reagan's involvement in ending the Cold War. That's ok though.....keep the blinders squarely over your eyes and just keep on keeping on......

I'm finished with this thread for now.....gonna go watch a movie with my wife...might be back later.

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: Don_Vito

Originally posted by: daveshel

The problem with this, of course, is that it really isn't provable one way or the other. It seems to me that Gorbachev and his cabinet are the best available resources if one wants proof, and they seem to credit Reagan. I credit Reagan for winning the cold war, although I was generally not a fan. Still, this is a complex question, and there were no doubt many overlapping factors that led to the demise of the USSR, so I don't think there's any way of knowing for sure.

Where are some of these quotes that Gorbachev credits Reagan with ending the cold war. How is Reagan responsible when Gorbachev ended the Soviet Union three years after Reagan left office? Also, specifically what do you attribute Reagans' success to? His arms race? His high military budget? From shinerbrooke's quote it sounds like Gorbachev didn't really fear Reagan but that if anything he saw him as a partner in peace (which contradicts arguments that he was rattled by Reagan).