By the way, what was it Reagan did

[shiner]

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: Don_Vito

Originally posted by: daveshel

The problem with this, of course, is that it really isn't provable one way or the other. It seems to me that Gorbachev and his cabinet are the best available resources if one wants proof, and they seem to credit Reagan. I credit Reagan for winning the cold war, although I was generally not a fan. Still, this is a complex question, and there were no doubt many overlapping factors that led to the demise of the USSR, so I don't think there's any way of knowing for sure.

Where are some of these quotes that Gorbachev credits Reagan with ending the cold war.

See you didn't read what I posted above....in my post about what Gorbachev had to say....


"He has already entered history as a man who was instrumental in bringing about the end of the Cold War," he added, his voice often falling to near-inaudible levels as he spoke in a room lined with memorabilia.

You also might want to read the link winstonsmith posted....

Gotta go....WE HAVE MOVIE SIGN!!!!!!!!

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: shinerburke

It's obvious you aren't willing to listen.

How is that obvious?

I post info from people who either knew Reagan or were helped by his policies and you dismiss them as being anecdotal instead of bothering to take into account what other people WHO WERE INVOLVED have to say.

I took it into account. If you read my response to don_vito I said I thought his quotes were interesting. That doesn't mean they aren't anecdotal. If you read daveshel's post you would see he also has anedotal evidence. Are you ignoring his ideas? Are you the one with the shutters over your eyes?

You also refuse to be bothered with the mountains of historical information about Reagan's involvement in ending the Cold War.

Why don't you show me the so-called mountains? I'm open to it but all I'm getting from you is quips.

That's ok though.....keep the blinders squarely over your eyes and just keep on keeping on......

More quipping from someone who professes to care about civil discussion and assh*les on other boards.

 

[etech]

In attempting to reform communism, Gorbachev was destroying the system. Reagan encouraged him every step of the way; as Gorbachev himself joked, Reagan induce him to take the Soviet Union to the edge of the abyss and then take ?one step forward.?

 

[shiner]

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: shinerburke

It's obvious you aren't willing to listen.

How is that obvious?

I post info from people who either knew Reagan or were helped by his policies and you dismiss them as being anecdotal instead of bothering to take into account what other people WHO WERE INVOLVED have to say.

I took it into account. If you read my response to don_vito I said I thought his quotes were interesting. That doesn't mean they aren't anecdotal. If you read daveshel's post you would see he also has anedotal evidence. Are you ignoring his ideas? Are you the one with the shutters over your eyes?

You also refuse to be bothered with the mountains of historical information about Reagan's involvement in ending the Cold War.

Why don't you show me the so-called mountains? I'm open to it but all I'm getting from you is quips.

That's ok though.....keep the blinders squarely over your eyes and just keep on keeping on......

More quipping from someone who professes to care about civil discussion and assh*les on other boards.

See the post directly above this one for why it is obvious that you aren't willing to listen/read.

Really gotta go....wife keeps coming in and giving me dirty looks....and not the good kind of dirty....

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: shinerburke

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: Don_Vito

Originally posted by: daveshel

The problem with this, of course, is that it really isn't provable one way or the other. It seems to me that Gorbachev and his cabinet are the best available resources if one wants proof, and they seem to credit Reagan. I credit Reagan for winning the cold war, although I was generally not a fan. Still, this is a complex question, and there were no doubt many overlapping factors that led to the demise of the USSR, so I don't think there's any way of knowing for sure.

Where are some of these quotes that Gorbachev credits Reagan with ending the cold war.

See you didn't read what I posted above....in me post about what Gorbachev had to say....


"He has already entered history as a man who was instrumental in bringing about the end of the Cold War," he added, his voice often falling to near-inaudible levels as he spoke in a room lined with memorabilia.

You also might want to read the link winstonsmith posted....

Gotta go....WE HAVE MOVIE SIGN!!!!!!!!

Being instrumental and saying he ended the cold war are two different things IMHO. (I think Gorbachev is trying to be nice here and let's be honest the part about his voice failing is odd). And as daveshel asked, this doesn't go towards explaining how Reagan ended it.

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: shinerburke

See the post directly above this one for why it is obvious that you aren't willing to listen/read.

I read it as prooved by the fact that I responded to it in my above thread. Since I prooved that I read that, would you care to withdraw your statement that I'm not willing to listen?

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: etech
In attempting to reform communism, Gorbachev was destroying the system. Reagan encouraged him every step of the way; as Gorbachev himself joked, Reagan induce him to take the Soviet Union to the edge of the abyss and then take ?one step forward.?

Is this really different than what other presidents had been saying for the past 50 years?

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: etech
In attempting to reform communism, Gorbachev was destroying the system. Reagan encouraged him every step of the way; as Gorbachev himself joked, Reagan induce him to take the Soviet Union to the edge of the abyss and then take ?one step forward.?

In all fairness (although I agree with him in this instance), Dinesh D'Souza is not a person you'd call an independent source. He has been a conservative pundit for decades, and worked in the Reagan White House. I, on the other hand, am a liberal punching bag who thinks Reagan won the cold war . . .

 

[etech]

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: Don_Vito

Originally posted by: daveshel

The problem with this, of course, is that it really isn't provable one way or the other. It seems to me that Gorbachev and his cabinet are the best available resources if one wants proof, and they seem to credit Reagan. I credit Reagan for winning the cold war, although I was generally not a fan. Still, this is a complex question, and there were no doubt many overlapping factors that led to the demise of the USSR, so I don't think there's any way of knowing for sure.

Where are some of these quotes that Gorbachev credits Reagan with ending the cold war. How is Reagan responsible when Gorbachev ended the Soviet Union three years after Reagan left office? Also, specifically what do you attribute Reagans' success to? His arms race? His high military budget? From shinerbrooke's quote it sounds like Gorbachev didn't really fear Reagan but that if anything he saw him as a partner in peace (which contradicts arguments that he was rattled by Reagan).

Wisdom after the fall of the USSR:

Ladies and gentlemen, if it had not been for the Reagan defense buildup, if the United States had not demonstrated that it is willing not only to stand up for freedom but to devote considerable sums of money to defending it, we probably would not be sitting here today having a free discussion between Russians and Americans.
- Boris Pinsker, Soviet Economist.

American policy in the 1980s was a catalyst for the collapse of the Soviet Union
- Oleg Kalugin, former KGB general (Victory: The Reagan Administration's Secret Strategy That Hastened the Collapse of the Soviet Union, page xi.)

[Reagan administration policies] were a major factor in the demise of the Soviet system.
- Yevgenny Novikov, former senior staff member of the Soviet Communist Party Central Committee (CPCC) (Victory: The Reagan Administration's Secret Strategy That Hastened the Collapse of the Soviet Union, page xi.)

 

[rickn]

Khrushchev to America, "We will bury you"! Reagan stood up to them once and for all.

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: etech

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: Don_Vito

Originally posted by: daveshel

The problem with this, of course, is that it really isn't provable one way or the other. It seems to me that Gorbachev and his cabinet are the best available resources if one wants proof, and they seem to credit Reagan. I credit Reagan for winning the cold war, although I was generally not a fan. Still, this is a complex question, and there were no doubt many overlapping factors that led to the demise of the USSR, so I don't think there's any way of knowing for sure.

Where are some of these quotes that Gorbachev credits Reagan with ending the cold war. How is Reagan responsible when Gorbachev ended the Soviet Union three years after Reagan left office? Also, specifically what do you attribute Reagans' success to? His arms race? His high military budget? From shinerbrooke's quote it sounds like Gorbachev didn't really fear Reagan but that if anything he saw him as a partner in peace (which contradicts arguments that he was rattled by Reagan).

Wisdom after the fall of the USSR:

Ladies and gentlemen, if it had not been for the Reagan defense buildup, if the United States had not demonstrated that it is willing not only to stand up for freedom but to devote considerable sums of money to defending it, we probably would not be sitting here today having a free discussion between Russians and Americans.
- Boris Pinsker, Soviet Economist.

American policy in the 1980s was a catalyst for the collapse of the Soviet Union
- Oleg Kalugin, former KGB general (Victory: The Reagan Administration's Secret Strategy That Hastened the Collapse of the Soviet Union, page xi.)

[Reagan administration policies] were a major factor in the demise of the Soviet system.
- Yevgenny Novikov, former senior staff member of the Soviet Communist Party Central Committee (CPCC) (Victory: The Reagan Administration's Secret Strategy That Hastened the Collapse of the Soviet Union, page xi.)

Ah. This is more convincing (except the last one where you edited the subject of the sentence).

These quotes do suggest the administration was a big source (but not _the_ ultimate cause). I concede it appears that many inside the beltway felt Reagan was instrumental. I still think Gorbachev had ultimate control and is himself the main cause but since the main question was what role Reagan played, I don't have too much more to say.

(Thanks etech for not quipping or insulting.)

 

[Riprorin]

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: etech

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: Don_Vito

Originally posted by: daveshel

The problem with this, of course, is that it really isn't provable one way or the other. It seems to me that Gorbachev and his cabinet are the best available resources if one wants proof, and they seem to credit Reagan. I credit Reagan for winning the cold war, although I was generally not a fan. Still, this is a complex question, and there were no doubt many overlapping factors that led to the demise of the USSR, so I don't think there's any way of knowing for sure.

Where are some of these quotes that Gorbachev credits Reagan with ending the cold war. How is Reagan responsible when Gorbachev ended the Soviet Union three years after Reagan left office? Also, specifically what do you attribute Reagans' success to? His arms race? His high military budget? From shinerbrooke's quote it sounds like Gorbachev didn't really fear Reagan but that if anything he saw him as a partner in peace (which contradicts arguments that he was rattled by Reagan).

Wisdom after the fall of the USSR:

Ladies and gentlemen, if it had not been for the Reagan defense buildup, if the United States had not demonstrated that it is willing not only to stand up for freedom but to devote considerable sums of money to defending it, we probably would not be sitting here today having a free discussion between Russians and Americans.
- Boris Pinsker, Soviet Economist.

American policy in the 1980s was a catalyst for the collapse of the Soviet Union
- Oleg Kalugin, former KGB general (Victory: The Reagan Administration's Secret Strategy That Hastened the Collapse of the Soviet Union, page xi.)

[Reagan administration policies] were a major factor in the demise of the Soviet system.
- Yevgenny Novikov, former senior staff member of the Soviet Communist Party Central Committee (CPCC) (Victory: The Reagan Administration's Secret Strategy That Hastened the Collapse of the Soviet Union, page xi.)

Ah. This is more convincing (except the last one where you edited the subject of the sentence).

These quotes do suggest the administration was a big source (but not _the_ ultimate cause). I concede it appears that many inside the beltway felt Reagan was instrumental. I still think Gorbachev had ultimate control and is himself the main cause but since the main question was what role Reagan played, I don't have too much more to say.

(Thanks etech for not quipping or insulting.)

Ronald Reagan has been widely credited for causing the collapse of the Soviet Union. Why is it that you don't want to believe it?

 

[etech]

Originally posted by: Don_Vito

Originally posted by: etech
In attempting to reform communism, Gorbachev was destroying the system. Reagan encouraged him every step of the way; as Gorbachev himself joked, Reagan induce him to take the Soviet Union to the edge of the abyss and then take ?one step forward.?

In all fairness (although I agree with him in this instance), Dinesh D'Souza is not a person you'd call an independent source. He has been a conservative pundit for decades, and worked in the Reagan White House. I, on the other hand, am a liberal punching bag who thinks Reagan won the cold war . . .

How an "amiable dunce" outsmarted the world.


Better?

edit/
Infohawk
(Thanks etech for not quipping or insulting.)

Thank you Infohawk for not being a raving asshole.

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Ronald Reagan has been widely credited for causing the collapse of the Soviet Union. Why is it that you don't want to believe it?

First of all, read the entire thread before you post. Second, take a lesson from etech and offer arguments / support instead of attacking my motives.

 

[AcidicFury]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Ronald Reagan has been widely credited for causing the collapse of the Soviet Union. Why is it that you don't want to believe it?

Because he didn't cause the collapse of the Soviet Union. It was mostly internal economic and political struggles that forced the collapse of the Soviet system. The Soviets realized that they could not compete with the USA, and once the satellite countries saw this weakness, they left, thus causing the collapse of the Soviet Union. Reagan did virtually nothing.

 

[daveshel]

I don't beleive it because I have heard only other's conclusions, not a convincing analysis.

 

[Riprorin]

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Ronald Reagan has been widely credited for causing the collapse of the Soviet Union. Why is it that you don't want to believe it?

First of all, read the entire thread before you post. Second, take a lesson from etech and offer arguments / support instead of attacking my motives.

Sorry, it's not worth my time to try to convince you that RR caused the collpase of the SU especially since it appears that you have already made your mind up on the matter.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: etech

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: Don_Vito

Originally posted by: daveshel

The problem with this, of course, is that it really isn't provable one way or the other. It seems to me that Gorbachev and his cabinet are the best available resources if one wants proof, and they seem to credit Reagan. I credit Reagan for winning the cold war, although I was generally not a fan. Still, this is a complex question, and there were no doubt many overlapping factors that led to the demise of the USSR, so I don't think there's any way of knowing for sure.

Where are some of these quotes that Gorbachev credits Reagan with ending the cold war. How is Reagan responsible when Gorbachev ended the Soviet Union three years after Reagan left office? Also, specifically what do you attribute Reagans' success to? His arms race? His high military budget? From shinerbrooke's quote it sounds like Gorbachev didn't really fear Reagan but that if anything he saw him as a partner in peace (which contradicts arguments that he was rattled by Reagan).

Wisdom after the fall of the USSR:

Ladies and gentlemen, if it had not been for the Reagan defense buildup, if the United States had not demonstrated that it is willing not only to stand up for freedom but to devote considerable sums of money to defending it, we probably would not be sitting here today having a free discussion between Russians and Americans.
- Boris Pinsker, Soviet Economist.

American policy in the 1980s was a catalyst for the collapse of the Soviet Union
- Oleg Kalugin, former KGB general (Victory: The Reagan Administration's Secret Strategy That Hastened the Collapse of the Soviet Union, page xi.)

[Reagan administration policies] were a major factor in the demise of the Soviet system.
- Yevgenny Novikov, former senior staff member of the Soviet Communist Party Central Committee (CPCC) (Victory: The Reagan Administration's Secret Strategy That Hastened the Collapse of the Soviet Union, page xi.)

Ah. This is more convincing (except the last one where you edited the subject of the sentence).

These quotes do suggest the administration was a big source (but not _the_ ultimate cause). I concede it appears that many inside the beltway felt Reagan was instrumental. I still think Gorbachev had ultimate control and is himself the main cause but since the main question was what role Reagan played, I don't have too much more to say.

(Thanks etech for not quipping or insulting.)

Ronald Reagan has been widely credited for causing the collapse of the Soviet Union. Why is it that you don't want to believe it?

The problem is that if 1 person claims a thing, and it is true, and if 100000 people claim the same thing, and it is also true, it in no way explains the circumstances and means of how that truth came to be.

What was the particular circumstance of the USSR at the time.
What did RR do IN PRECISE TERMS that influenced the downfall of the USSR?
How did that come to pass?


These are specifics.

One could have a thread on how Bill Gates became a billionare, but people just saying "He worked hard" or "he ripped people off" or whatever doesnt address the specifics of the issue. I think some people are looking for how it was done, not just that it was.

Hopefully, someone can go through records of the former USSR and verify claims made in an an objective sense. This was a significant event in US history, and I can't say all the hows and whys, and I am not sure anyone has the full perspective and complete knowlege of that time (yet)

 

[AcidicFury]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Ronald Reagan has been widely credited for causing the collapse of the Soviet Union. Why is it that you don't want to believe it?

First of all, read the entire thread before you post. Second, take a lesson from etech and offer arguments / support instead of attacking my motives.

Sorry, it's not worth my time to try to convince you that RR caused the collpase of the SU especially since it appears that you have already made your mind up on the matter.

Did you even read my post? I offered a pretty lucid explanation of why the Soviet Union collapsed.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Ronald Reagan has been widely credited for causing the collapse of the Soviet Union. Why is it that you don't want to believe it?

First of all, read the entire thread before you post. Second, take a lesson from etech and offer arguments / support instead of attacking my motives.

Sorry, it's not worth my time to try to convince you that RR caused the collpase of the SU especially since it appears that you have already made your mind up on the matter.

Yes, he appears to be willing to reject any statement that support RR having an effect on the downfall of the USSR.

 

[Riprorin]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Ronald Reagan has been widely credited for causing the collapse of the Soviet Union. Why is it that you don't want to believe it?

First of all, read the entire thread before you post. Second, take a lesson from etech and offer arguments / support instead of attacking my motives.

Sorry, it's not worth my time to try to convince you that RR caused the collpase of the SU especially since it appears that you have already made your mind up on the matter.

Yes, he appears to be willing to reject any statement that support RR having an effect on the downfall of the USSR.

That's true. I was born in 1960 so I lived through it and it's all pretty clear in my mind. You're not going to change my mind and I'm not going to waste my time trying to change yours.

 

[etech]

Originally posted by: AcidicFury

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Ronald Reagan has been widely credited for causing the collapse of the Soviet Union. Why is it that you don't want to believe it?

Because he didn't cause the collapse of the Soviet Union. It was mostly internal economic and political struggles that forced the collapse of the Soviet system. The Soviets realized that they could not compete with the USA, and once the satellite countries saw this weakness, they left, thus causing the collapse of the Soviet Union. Reagan did virtually nothing.

You haven't read one link I posted have you?

BTW, I am not arguing that Pres. Reagan single-handily shut down the Soviet Union. There were a combination of factors in play. He did see the possibility when others didn't. He did work and set policies in place that contributed and at the very very least sped up its downfall when others thought it was impossible. It was a major platform of his presidency and he succeeded.

 

[AcidicFury]

Originally posted by: etech

Originally posted by: AcidicFury

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Ronald Reagan has been widely credited for causing the collapse of the Soviet Union. Why is it that you don't want to believe it?

Because he didn't cause the collapse of the Soviet Union. It was mostly internal economic and political struggles that forced the collapse of the Soviet system. The Soviets realized that they could not compete with the USA, and once the satellite countries saw this weakness, they left, thus causing the collapse of the Soviet Union. Reagan did virtually nothing.

You haven't read one link I posted have you?

I'm relying on my information from college professors. I'm not so sure I trust many media sources anymore.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: AcidicFury

Originally posted by: etech

Originally posted by: AcidicFury

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Ronald Reagan has been widely credited for causing the collapse of the Soviet Union. Why is it that you don't want to believe it?

Because he didn't cause the collapse of the Soviet Union. It was mostly internal economic and political struggles that forced the collapse of the Soviet system. The Soviets realized that they could not compete with the USA, and once the satellite countries saw this weakness, they left, thus causing the collapse of the Soviet Union. Reagan did virtually nothing.

You haven't read one link I posted have you?

I'm relying on my information from college professors. I'm not so sure I trust many media sources anymore.

good idea, only trust a few sources. You might trying reading many sources and find the truth, rather than someone telling you what it is.

 

[Riprorin]

Originally posted by: AcidicFury

Originally posted by: etech

Originally posted by: AcidicFury

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Ronald Reagan has been widely credited for causing the collapse of the Soviet Union. Why is it that you don't want to believe it?

Because he didn't cause the collapse of the Soviet Union. It was mostly internal economic and political struggles that forced the collapse of the Soviet system. The Soviets realized that they could not compete with the USA, and once the satellite countries saw this weakness, they left, thus causing the collapse of the Soviet Union. Reagan did virtually nothing.

You haven't read one link I posted have you?

I'm relying on my information from college professors. I'm not so sure I trust many media sources anymore.

And college professors are unbiased sources of information?