Buttigieg and homophobia

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Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
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No, my opinion is that he is too young, too inexperienced, and lacks the political support. His polling numbers against Trump are the worst of all the Democratic candidates. Couch that as you like.


There's nothing to couch as it's completely irrelevant and even perfectly proper. BTW I hadn't considered you to be one of those I am thinking about but the "we can't run him because he's gay" but of course they like gays except when it comes to the election for "practical reasons".

Some of my best friends are blacks and Jews?

No thanks. You have rational and non-bigoted reasons for choosing others.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
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There's nothing to couch as it's completely irrelevant and even perfectly proper. BTW I hadn't considered you to be one of those I am thinking about but the "we can't run him because he's gay" but of course they like gays except when it comes to the election for "practical reasons".

Some of my best friends are blacks and Jews?

No thanks. You have rational and non-bigoted reasons for choosing others.

I am not "one of those" you're speaking of. Your argument that people have to vote for the minority or else they're a bigot is simply bullshit and out of line.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
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I am not "one of those" you're speaking of. Your argument that people have to vote for the minority or else they're a bigot is simply bullshit and out of line.

It's a form of trolling. There are a fair number of otherwise winnable voters who won't vote for Pete simply because he's gay. HR knows it as well as he rest of us. We need every vote we can get.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
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Way to cherry-pick the giant list as if the only government positions are US Federal congressmen while you yourself mention "gay mayors, gay city council members, and a gay governor"

Derp.

You skipped the part where I said "senators" (should have said congresspersons). Pre 2016 most of the GOP gays that got elected do places did so in heavily liberal areas kind of like how Bloomberg was technically a Republican but not really. None of that makes the Republican record on gays serving and getting elected to office while out not super terrible and any tut tutting on Mayor Pete's support in extremely bad faith.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
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Winning changes a lot. Obama had very little black support until he took Iowa. Black voters then decided he can be a winner and things changed.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
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How can you claim that's a barrier to entry when he is in the running for the Presidential nomination?

There is a crazy amount of bad faith in this thread. Can't say that I expect that to get any better as we move into the election year.

He's "running?" So what? He can't possibly secure the nomination because he's gay.

I can claim it's a barrier to entry based on the facts I have presented. He has zero support among black voters and you can't win the nomination with zero support from black voters. I have considered and debunked every argument other than homophobia as to why he has zero support among this group. I have pointed out that blacks voted overwhelmingly to ban gay marriage in CA while whites voted against it. Rep. Clyburn even admits that homophobia is a significant reason he has low support among blacks.

I have mentioned later in my OP that I personally know three white dems, my wife included, who aren't voting for him because they think the nation is still too homophobic and they want Trump out badly. My wife prefers Buttigieg but will likely vote Biden - who she thinks is pathetic - because she thinks the white working class in her home state of Ohio are too homophobic to vote for Buttigieg. The worst part of that is that she may very well be right.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
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He's "running?" So what? He can't possibly secure the nomination because he's gay.

I can claim it's a barrier to entry based on the facts I have presented. He has zero support among black voters and you can't win the nomination with zero support from black voters. I have considered and debunked every argument other than homophobia as to why he has zero support among this group. I have pointed out that blacks voted overwhelmingly to ban gay marriage in CA while whites voted against it. Rep. Clyburn even admits that homophobia is a significant reason he has low support among blacks.

I have mentioned later in my OP that I personally know three white dems, my wife included, who aren't voting for him because they think the nation is still too homophobic and they want Trump out badly. My wife prefers Buttigieg but will likely vote Biden because she thinks the white working class in her home state of Ohio are too homophobic to vote for Buttigieg.

I figure your wife is right, not just about Ohio but about a lot of places. It's just a truth we have to deal with, like it or not.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
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I am not "one of those" you're speaking of. Your argument that people have to vote for the minority or else they're a bigot is simply bullshit and out of line.

Find the quote where I said that. Not what you interpreted.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
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Winning changes a lot. Obama had very little black support until he took Iowa. Black voters then decided he can be a winner and things changed.

That is the theory that the Buttigieg campaign is banking on right now and that is why they are going all in for Iowa and NH. I think Obama had non-zero support from black voters before winning Iowa though, so the analogy is shaky. I'm sure he'll get "more" black support if he does well early but "more" could mean he goes from zero to 2%.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
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It's a form of trolling. There are a fair number of otherwise winnable voters who won't vote for Obama simply because he's black. HR knows it as well as he rest of us. We need every vote we can get.

And I fixed it for you.

Edit to add some substance and context. When Obama ran the first time "everybody knew" white people especially men wouldn't vote for Obama. I remember that and it was almost a mantra. Every white guy was too racist, or almost all were and nominating Obama? Well, there are winnable voters who won't vote for him simply because he's black.

Yeah that was real, but Obama won anyway. But now it's different, eh? Pete can't win because he's gay so pick anyone else.

Damn, saying "don't vote for the black guy" would be struck down but "don't vote for the gay" is fine?

Eff that. Vote for Pete because you approve of his policies and as a person or don't if you find him short.

Maybe Obama should have waited 20 years when America might change could be the very same argument after Bush, and damn it it was wrong then and wrong down applied to Pete.
 
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dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
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He's "running?" So what? He can't possibly secure the nomination because he's gay.

I can claim it's a barrier to entry based on the facts I have presented. He has zero support among black voters and you can't win the nomination with zero support from black voters. I have considered and debunked every argument other than homophobia as to why he has zero support among this group. I have pointed out that blacks voted overwhelmingly to ban gay marriage in CA while whites voted against it. Rep. Clyburn even admits that homophobia is a significant reason he has low support among blacks.

I have mentioned later in my OP that I personally know three white dems, my wife included, who aren't voting for him because they think the nation is still too homophobic and they want Trump out badly. My wife prefers Buttigieg but will likely vote Biden - who she thinks is pathetic - because she thinks the white working class in her home state of Ohio are too homophobic to vote for Buttigieg. The worst part of that is that she may very well be right.
You still have not debunked my argument that it is possible that his lack of support among black people stems from a lack of knowledge/interest in addition to any homophobia.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
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You still have not debunked my argument that it is possible that his lack of support among black people stems from a lack of knowledge/interest in addition to any homophobia.

Nor an explanation that Obama can't have won because we all knew that a black president can't win. White people can learn to vote for a black but blacks can't learn to support someone because they are gay?

Think about what that says dank. Blacks can't overcome their prejudices such as they are, but whites managed to. WTF dude.

For the eleventybillionth time, pick someone who resonates with your values and sense of capability, not the color if their skin, their genitals, or orientation. Reject any of those if they do not.

WTF are we arguing for, a 50's perspective of "yeah they should have rights as long as they don't move next door"?

Edit- goofed on spelling and changed to "blacks can't learn" in the first paragraph.
 
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woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
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You still have not debunked my argument that it is possible that his lack of support among black people stems from a lack of knowledge/interest in addition to any homophobia.

Buttigieg has had loads of press coverage for over 6 months now. He has appeared at every debate. His campaign has been doing outreach in AA communities for months. Low information cannot explain zero support under those circumstances. It can explain lower than expected support but not zero.

Your theory goes with the argument that if he wins Iowa/NH he will suddenly get more support because those wins will raise his profile. So it's going to possibly be put to the test. My bet is that he gets a small bump in black support but not a large one..
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
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Buttigieg has had loads of press coverage for over 6 months now. He has appeared at every debate. His campaign has been doing outreach in AA communities for months. Low information cannot explain zero support under those circumstances. It can explain lower than expected support but not zero.

Your theory goes with the argument that if he wins Iowa/NH he will suddenly get more support because those wins will raise his profile. So it's going to possibly be put to the test. My bet is that he gets a small bump in black support but not a large one..

You realize that based on winning your best bet is to get a white Christian male. Women? Maybe. No gays and ABSOLUTELY no agnostic or atheists. Blacks themselves are in disfavor relative to the beginning of the Obama administration, so none of those too.

Maybe in twenty years you can have your shot, but to the back of the bus for now.

With all my heart I say fuck that.

If Pete or another Obama shouldn't run because of demographics then fuck us all. Oh, no Jews either, because we all know about THEM.

And if someone wants to report me I suggest that I'm dripping sarcasm here and everyone should stand on their merits and be considered for them.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
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You realize that based on winning your best bet is to get a white Christian male. Women? Maybe. No gays and ABSOLUTELY no agnostic or atheists. Blacks themselves are in disfavor relative to the beginning of the Obama administration, so none of those too.

Maybe in twenty years you can have your shot, but to the back of the bus for now.

With all my heart I say fuck that.

If Pete or another Obama shouldn't run because of demographics then fuck us all. Oh, no Jews either, because we all know about THEM.

And if someone wants to report me I suggest that I'm dripping sarcasm here and everyone should stand on their merits and be considered for them.

I agree. Not voting for someone you otherwise would have voted for because he's a __________ is the exact same thing as not hiring someone for a job because he's a ________. The only difference being that since we cannot take action against anyone based on how they vote, this kind of job discrimination is legal.

Also, it's one thing if someone isn't elected in the general election because he's ___________ but quite another when he can't even win a primary for the nation's anti-racist, anti-sexist, anti-homophobic party. That's the part that galls me the most.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
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Nor an explanation that Obama can't have won because we all knew that a black president can't win. White people can learn to vote for a black but blacks can't learn to support someone because they are gay?

Think about what that says dank. Blacks can't overcome their prejudices such as they are, but whites managed to. WTF dude.

For the eleventybillionth time, pick someone who resonates with your values and sense of capability, not the color if their skin, their genitals, or orientation. Reject any of those if they do not.

WTF are we arguing for, a 50's perspective of "yeah they should have rights as long as they don't move next door"?

Edit- goofed on spelling and changed to "blacks can't learn" in the first paragraph.

Surely Obama's wins didn't hugely depend on white voters 'overcoming their prejudices'? White people didn't vote for him in any great numbers. Most whites voted for the other guy. However white people are not as large a proportion of the electorate as they used to be.



(Don't know why this embedded link is coming out so oversized..)




imrs.php





I don't know why Buttigeig doesn't do well with black voters, but I wonder if it has something to do with the interaction of generation/age and race? Biden clearly has an appeal for older black voters, but is he particularly popular among younger black Americans? I wonder if Buttigeig is too young/lacking track record, for those older black voters (who might also be more conservative about sexuality), while being insufficiently radical or strong on racial politics for the younger ones?
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
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Surely Obama's wins didn't hugely depend on white voters 'overcoming their prejudices'? White people didn't vote for him in any great numbers. Most whites voted for the other guy. However white people are not as large a proportion of the electorate as they used to be.



(Don't know why this embedded link is coming out so oversized..)




imrs.php





I don't know why Buttigeig doesn't do well with black voters, but I wonder if it has something to do with the interaction of generation/age and race? Biden clearly has an appeal for older black voters, but is he particularly popular among younger black Americans?


What was sold was that very thing by some. You had been here only a little while back then I think so maybe you missed the preelection drama?

But yes it was a popular concern that people would vote against Obama because of race and it turned out not to be so. What I am wondering is why whites could do this but blacks aren't... whatever enough to choose based on what is best even if they personally don't like a lifestyle? Are they so bigoted that they cannot learn or think critically?

Now we're racist and homophobic. I have greater faith in the black community and if I am wrong I'll still maintain that old way of thinking can be challenged and changed.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,114
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Surely Obama's wins didn't hugely depend on white voters 'overcoming their prejudices'? White people didn't vote for him in any great numbers. Most whites voted for the other guy. However white people are not as large a proportion of the electorate as they used to be.



(Don't know why this embedded link is coming out so oversized..)




imrs.php





I don't know why Buttigeig doesn't do well with black voters, but I wonder if it has something to do with the interaction of generation/age and race? Biden clearly has an appeal for older black voters, but is he particularly popular among younger black Americans? I wonder if Buttigeig is too young/lacking track record, for those older black voters (who might also be more conservative about sexuality), while being insufficiently radical or strong on racial politics for the younger ones?

The most obvious flaw in that line of reasoning is that with both blacks and whites, the younger prefer a more progressive candidate while the older prefer a more moderate one. Yet Buttigieg gets double digit support among whites and none among blacks. Buttigieg is actually doing very well among older whites and but is nowhere at all among older blacks. Also, while Buttigieg isn't doing that well among younger voters, he's doing better there than he is with black voters.
 
Nov 8, 2012
20,828
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The most obvious flaw in that line of reasoning is that with both blacks and whites, the younger prefer a more progressive candidate while the older prefer a more moderate one. Yet Buttigieg gets double digit support among whites and none among blacks. Buttigieg is actually doing very well among older whites and but is nowhere at all among older blacks. Also, while Buttigieg isn't doing that well among younger voters, he's doing better there than he is with black voters.

Translation:

Young people don't pay taxes

Older people do pay taxes


News @ 11
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,634
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What was sold was that very thing by some. You had been here only a little while back then I think so maybe you missed the preelection drama?

But yes it was a popular concern that people would vote against Obama because of race and it turned out not to be so. What I am wondering is why whites could do this but blacks aren't... whatever enough to choose based on what is best even if they personally don't like a lifestyle? Are they so bigoted that they cannot learn or think critically?

Now we're racist and homophobic. I have greater faith in the black community and if I am wrong I'll still maintain that old way of thinking can be challenged and changed.


But most white people didn't vote for Obama, so I'm not sure what your point is.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,634
8,521
136
The most obvious flaw in that line of reasoning is that with both blacks and whites, the younger prefer a more progressive candidate while the older prefer a more moderate one. Yet Buttigieg gets double digit support among whites and none among blacks. Buttigieg is actually doing very well among older whites and but is nowhere at all among older blacks. Also, while Buttigieg isn't doing that well among younger voters, he's doing better there than he is with black voters.

But my point (possible point, not certain about any of it) is that perhaps it's about an _interaction_ of age and race, not either on its own.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
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And I fixed it for you.

Edit to add some substance and context. When Obama ran the first time "everybody knew" white people especially men wouldn't vote for Obama. I remember that and it was almost a mantra. Every white guy was too racist, or almost all were and nominating Obama? Well, there are winnable voters who won't vote for him simply because he's black.

Yeah that was real, but Obama won anyway. But now it's different, eh? Pete can't win because he's gay so pick anyone else.

Damn, saying "don't vote for the black guy" would be struck down but "don't vote for the gay" is fine?

Eff that. Vote for Pete because you approve of his policies and as a person or don't if you find him short.

Maybe Obama should have waited 20 years when America might change could be the very same argument after Bush, and damn it it was wrong then and wrong down applied to Pete.

Lemme see here... it was 43 years since the civil rights acts that Obama was elected and only 4 since gay marriage became the law of the land. Would you suppose that a black person could have won the Presidency in 1968? Have you actually seen that Arizona oceanfront?
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
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But most white people didn't vote for Obama, so I'm not sure what your point is.


My point is that enough did, more than many expected. A black man DID become president because enough whites supported it.

Same point with blacks. I expect some to be as some predict but that does not mean doom as "all blacks are" and not enough will support to make a difference.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
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Lemme see here... it was 43 years since the civil rights acts that Obama was elected and only 4 since gay marriage became the law of the land. Would you suppose that a black person could have won the Presidency in 1969? Have you actually seen that Arizona oceanfront?


But a black could not win because of whites even then. We heard it here. But yeah, Pete is gay and those blacks might not support him in their ignorance. A very good reason to kick him down the road.

The reason the Obama won wasn't because of anything but people who raised hell and didn't sit back and wish upon a star with "I wish these poor people have rights someday but for now they must be second class citizens".