but....who will build the roads?

[fskimospy]

LOL I have. Nice to dodge the real topic of taxation = theft though



So basically all the good things in society are because of government?

You statists are so cute with your somalia references. As if there isn't a gang of thugs robbing people there as well. You are a perfect example of a statist who cannot think outside his indoctrination. At least try to think.

Now try and think about what conditions exist in Somalia that allows the Shebab to run around robbing and murdering. Seriously, at least try to think.

You are able to shelter yourself from the obvious consequences of your ideology because 1.) no one is dumb enough to try it on a large scale and 2.) you lack the courage of your convictions to go participate in it on a personal scale. Forget Somalia, go live like Thoreau in Walden. Stop back in now and then to update us on your coercion free life.

 

[NoStateofMind]

If I had a nickel for every young person that dreams of a land with self governed citizens that were nice to each other and worked together in harmony to build a perfect utopian place to live.

1. IIRC you are either on or about to go on social security which would mean there are probably a lot of people here that would be considered "young".

2. Moral arguments are never tied to age. Unless you willingly choose to ignore them.

3. No one claimed "utopia" and nor is that possible. You might want to check for dementia since we've had this discussion before.

In the US, for the first 120 years or so, most rural roads were maintained by local governments. A typical arrangement was that a family would either contribute labor (say, 2 weeks per year), or, they could contribute some equivalent amount of money to the upkeep of roads. Or, if you were particularly well off, you could send someone else to do the labor for you.

Interesting.

It was in the land owner's 'radical self interest' to maintain their local roads. Without some formalized system, the roads (really just paths) would make it hard for people to interact with others. Most farms were subsistence-level enterprises. Yet, they had to get some of their goods to the mill, or to the village to trade for goods they may need.

Umm ok.

Guess what? For the most part, the roads uniformly sucked. During the spring, the roads were unpassable quagmires. Yes, some places created plank roads if trees were available. But, for swaths of the country, suitable lumber was not available. Cobbles and macadam were reserved for urban areas. Not surprisingly, most long-range commerce was conducted on rivers and seas. Hence, those bastard statists proposed and built the Erie Canal, which helped settle the Midwestern states.

WOW!

(And as an aside, those bastard statists, such as Thomas Jefferson, passed the Land Ordinance of 1785. The Land Ordinance created the systematic approach to surveying land outside of the original colonies. It gives the familiar checkerboard pattern to land use in much of the US. Guess what, land owners were expected to donate right-of-way on section lines to the local government for building local roads. Surely this is a regulatory taking; nobody received a dime in 'just compensation' even though they lost land they had paid for.)

Typical statists at work.

This is a long-winded explanation for why statists started the 'Good Roads Movement' in the 1890s to get rid of outmoded, outdated, and unworkable contemporary solution to maintaining roads. They felt that roads should be engineered, all-weather solutions to getting from point A to point B.

Well isn't that special. Did they happen to complete this task with only willing people or was there a barrel of a gun in their future at some point if they refused?

Damn you Good Roads Movement people who used the tyranny of the majority to keep the man down. Who knew that less than 60 years later, these statists would propose (and fund) one of the largest and most expensive public works projects in the history of the world--the Interstate Highway System. Damn you for allowing me to enjoy fresh oranges thousands that have to be trucked thousands of miles. Damn you for allowing me to drive from coast-to-coast in days, not months.

Ah the ends justify the means argument. Tell me, do you interact with all your friends and family the same way? Do you tell them that as long as there is some benefit that they are supposed to be happy with it?

If I were to send someone a stale sandwich without them asking for it and later sent over armed thugs to collect $100 for the "service" I provided, would you you blame him for eating it?

So much for morality.

Damn you statists for taking away one bit of liberty and replacing it with another. It is unpossible for that to happen in my utopia.

Statists also seem to think that if government didn't exist we would immediately be living in the 1800's by candlelight. Technology simply ceases to exist. Another telltale sign of an unthinking mind.

 

[Veliko]

To my knowledge there has never been absolute free "country".

Hmmmmmmmmmm, that's setting off a few alarm bells already.

Pointing out that government is not needed really rattles the cages doesn't it? However small the bridge or road is is of no effect. That fact remains that there was a need and the people, not the extortionists, completed the task. The same would happen today if we were so lucky to see your god the government magically disappear from the face of the earth. Although people such as yourself, those stuck on the central authority tit, will have a hard time adjusting to thinking for themselves.

The people came together, formed a collective, pooled their resources, and delegated where necessary... that's a government on a small scale, much as the bridge is small in scale.

Yeah that analogy doesn't fit. Try again.

It fits perfectly.

Try again.

 

[NoStateofMind]

HOA is itself a form of Government.

What do you think the fundamental difference is between a government and HOA?

 

[NoStateofMind]

Now try and think about what conditions exist in Somalia that allows the Shebab to run around robbing and murdering. Seriously, at least try to think.

Thats just it. You aren't. Do you think that doesn't happen here? The difference is only the gangs in somalia aren't seen as having the right to violence. Here your government is considered to not only have the right to extort the masses but also the right to punish those who do not comply. Just like the gangs in somalia. Shame your education didn't teach you morality.

You are able to shelter yourself from the obvious consequences of your ideology because 1.) no one is dumb enough to try it on a large scale and

Right. Freedom is dumb. Gotcha.

2.) you lack the courage of your convictions to go participate in it on a personal scale. Forget Somalia, go live like Thoreau in Walden. Stop back in now and then to update us on your coercion free life.

Courage be damned. Its called self preservation and theres nothing wrong with that. As has been mentioned many times there are no free lands. The "if you don't like it leave" argument infers that politicians own all the land. Further highlighting that there is a ruling class and you can't see it. You just happen to support it.

Did you sidestep the moral argument again? Yes, I think you did. Typical statist.

 

[NoStateofMind]

Hmmmmmmmmmm, that's setting off a few alarm bells already.

Ah! Like the alarm bells that copernicus set off when he claimed the earth revolved around the sun. Such a thought was blasphemous! Yep new thoughts will do that. Just so you know, its mostly fear driven.

The people came together, formed a collective, pooled their resources, and delegated where necessary... that's a government on a small scale, much as the bridge is small in scale.

Whats the difference between my example and government? I'd be surprised if you can make the distinction. Floor me.

It fits perfectly.

Try again.

Explain how someone finding money on the street is analogous to a group of people building a road/bridge.

 

[Veliko]

Ah! Like the alarm bells that copernicus set off when he claimed the earth revolved around the sun. Such a thought was blasphemous! Yep new thoughts will do that. Just so you know, its mostly fear driven.

Riiiiiiiiiight. You think every idea is equal.

Whats the difference between my example and government? I'd be surprised if you can make the distinction. Floor me.

Scale.

Explain how someone finding money on the street is analogous to a group of people building a road/bridge.

It's the extrapolation that you seem to be missing.

 

[dank69]

Except for the constant droning of morons like yourself. This thread is for thinking people. Dipshits need not reply.

Dipshits like the one who needs to build straw men in order to supports his dipshit position like he did in the following post?

...

So basically all the good things in society are because of government?

...

If you had average critical thinking skills you would realize as you typed that post that nobody has ever claimed that all good things are because of government. You would realize you are arguing with a phantom and then declaring yourself master of the universe. This has the opposite effect of the one you are going for, assuming you are serious and not just trolling, solidifying your identity as a buffoon. An ape trying to look smart when he doesn't even understand the basic fundamentals of communication.

 

[NoStateofMind]

Riiiiiiiiiight. You think every idea is equal.

Until it is proven/disproven yes. You don't?

Scale.

You seriously can't think of any other difference? None? Well I really don't expect much from statist so I'll give you the answer. One is done by consent and the other at the barrel of a gun. A very simple but colossal difference. Consider yourself educated.

It's the extrapolation that you seem to be missing.

Which is why I asked you to explain it? If you don't want to then okay but don't expect me to address it as a valid point then.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

1. IIRC you are either on or about to go on social security which would mean there are probably a lot of people here that would be considered "young".

2. Moral arguments are never tied to age. Unless you willingly choose to ignore them.

3. No one claimed "utopia" and nor is that possible. You might want to check for dementia since we've had this discussion before.

I still have 10 years before I'll start receiving Social Security (I will wait until I'm 65).

Actually many of today's youth have major issues with morality and it will take several generations at best to attain a moral world that you keep preaching about. This would also require brainwashing people to attain your goal.

Obviously you don't realize the world you advocate is considered an utopia by many who understand the definition of the word and your dreams.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/utopia

uto·pia noun \yu̇-ˈtō-pē-ə\ : an imaginary place in which the government, laws, and social conditions are perfect

 

[NoStateofMind]

Dipshits like the one who needs to build straw men in order to supports his dipshit position like he did in the following post?


If you had average critical thinking skills you would realize as you typed that post that nobody has ever claimed that all good things are because of government. You would realize you are arguing with a phantom and then declaring yourself master of the universe. This has the opposite effect of the one you are going for, assuming you are serious and not just trolling, solidifying your identity as a buffoon. An ape trying to look smart when he doesn't even understand the basic fundamentals of communication.

I don't know what you are going on about here but you've added nothing of substance to the topic.

Statist like yourself absolutely do suggest or subtly infer that the comforts of society are related to governments existence. To say that I'm enjoying the comforts of this society and that if I don't like it I should leave and find a jungle to live in is saying exactly that. To claim otherwise shows you lack the cognitive ability to think things through. I get it though, you're butthurt and want to get back at me. Here's a suggestion. If you don't like getting spanked its probably better you just mind your own business.

 

[Veliko]

Until it is proven/disproven yes. You don't?

No, I don't think all ideas are equal.

For instance, no-one has proven to me that stuffing crabs into the petrol tank of a car doesn't allow it to fly.

You seriously can't think of any other difference? None? Well I really don't expect much from statist so I'll give you the answer. One is done by consent and the other at the barrel of a gun. A very simple but colossal difference. Consider yourself educated.

As I said, the only difference is the scale of the operation.

Which is why I asked you to explain it? If you don't want to then okay but don't expect me to address it as a valid point then.

The fact that it needed explaining to you is an indication of why you fail to see the inherent flaw in your proposed government-free world.

 

[fskimospy]

Thats just it. You aren't. Do you think that doesn't happen here? The difference is only the gangs in somalia aren't seen as having the right to violence. Here your government is considered to not only have the right to extort the masses but also the right to punish those who do not comply. Just like the gangs in somalia. Shame your education didn't teach you morality.

You think it is more moral to allow rampant rape, murder, etc as opposed to having a government. You are welcome to that opinion, but in the real world you're a monster for holding it. Disgusting.

Right. Freedom is dumb. Gotcha.

Courage be damned. Its called self preservation and theres nothing wrong with that. As has been mentioned many times there are no free lands. The "if you don't like it leave" argument infers that politicians own all the land. Further highlighting that there is a ruling class and you can't see it. You just happen to support it.

Did you sidestep the moral argument again? Yes, I think you did. Typical statist.

It's not self preservation, there are most certainly TONS of lands on this planet where you can go and no government well ever bother you or even be aware of your existence. You just don't want to go live there because you value comfort over your own professed morality. You want to have it both ways; complain about how immoral everyone else is for structuring society this way and then choose off the fruits of this structure anyway.

In terms of morality you are the worst form of hypocrite. I don't believe taxation is morally wrong. You DO however, but you continue to participate in a system you think is immoral because you are too cowardly to risk your comfortable life. That's both pathetic and disgusting.

Grow a pair. Live by the courage of your convictions. Walden awaits you.

 

[sandorski]

What do you think the fundamental difference is between a government and HOA?

Size.

 

[NoStateofMind]

I still have 10 years before I'll start receiving Social Security (I will wait until I'm 65).

Count us youngin's as thankful.

Actually many of today's youth have major issues with morality and it will take several generations at best to attain a moral world that you keep preaching about. This would also require brainwashing people to attain your goal.

You are correct in asserting that it will take some time barring some catastrophe. It will also take a lot more personal responsibility and parenting. I do disagree that it would take brainwashing to achieve this goal. As an example, did it take brainwashing for you to know that it was wrong to steal? How about assaulting people? As a child you knew these things to be wrong but somewhere along the line you were brainwashed into thinking that when authority does it that those same principles do not apply.

Obviously you don't realize the world you advocate is considered an utopia by many who understand the definition of the word and your dreams.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/utopia

often capitalized : a place of ideal perfection especially in laws, government, and social conditions

There would be no government. There will always be strife and some who will disregard human life as valuable. That's not utopia to me. Is it to you?

 

[NoStateofMind]

No, I don't think all ideas are equal.

For instance, no-one has proven to me that stuffing crabs into the petrol tank of a car doesn't allow it to fly.

Thats where you use that thing called logic.

As I said, the only difference is the scale of the operation.

Its not the same thing. If you think that extortion = voluntary interaction we really have nothing to discuss.

The fact that it needed explaining to you is an indication of why you fail to see the inherent flaw in your proposed government-free world.

So in reality you just wanted to say something just to be saying it. Okay.

 

[NoStateofMind]

You think it is more moral to allow rampant rape, murder, etc as opposed to having a government. You are welcome to that opinion, but in the real world you're a monster for holding it. Disgusting.

Would you care to point out to the class where this is advocated? You are more stupid than I thought.

It's not self preservation, there are most certainly TONS of lands on this planet where you can go and no government well ever bother you or even be aware of your existence. You just don't want to go live there because you value comfort over your own professed morality. You want to have it both ways; complain about how immoral everyone else is for structuring society this way and then choose off the fruits of this structure anyway.

It absolutely is self preservation. You continue to infer that we have all these things because of government but we have these things in spite of government. It takes a massive leap of faith (religious one at that) to assume such nonsense.

In terms of morality you are the worst form of hypocrite. I don't believe taxation is morally wrong. You DO however, but you continue to participate in a system you think is immoral because you are too cowardly to risk your comfortable life. That's both pathetic and disgusting.

Whats pathetic and disgusting is that people like yourself are shown the error in thought that holds mankind enslaved and instead of thinking about it, mulling it over and questioning the validity and morality of their involvement they lash out and condemn as if they are not themselves involved in its perpetuation. All of government is nothing more than the monopoly of force and immoral. You have chosen not to face it.

Grow a pair. Live by the courage of your convictions. Walden awaits you.

Talk about growing a pair. How about you challenge your indoctrinated religious belief system? That takes balls which you have none. Here learn something.

1. No man can delegate, or give to another, any right of arbitrary dominion over himself; for that would be giving himself away as a slave. And this no one can do. Any contract to do so is necessarily an absurd one, and has no validity. To call such a contract a "constitution," or by any other high-sounding name, does not alter its character as an absurd and void contract.

2. No man can delegate, or give to another, any right of arbitrary dominion over a third person; for that would imply a right in the first person, not only to make the third person his slave, but also a right to dispose of him as a slave to still other persons. Any contract to do this is necessarily a criminal one, and therefore invalid. To call such a contract a "constitution" does not at all lessen its criminality, or add to its validity.

 

[NoStateofMind]

Size.

Nope. That's not it. One more try?

 

[Veliko]

Thats where you use that thing called logic.

Hmmmmmm, can we have another flip-flop please?

Until it is proven/disproven yes. You don't?

Its not the same thing. If you think that extortion = voluntary interaction we really have nothing to discuss.

Extrapolation.
Scale.

Words that mean things. Find out what.

So in reality you just wanted to say something just to be saying it. Okay.

No, in reality I was using the same method of extrapolation that you are in the OP to show how daft it is.

 

[NoStateofMind]

Hmmmmmm, can we have another flip-flop please?

Jesus you're a dumbass. Proven and disproven through thought. This is too far above your head.

Extrapolation.
Scale.

Words that mean things. Find out what.

You are out there buddy. You didn't even address what was stated. I can assume now that you are just playing because your mind is fried and stuck on stupid. If you intend to have anything closely resembling a conversation typically you address the other person's opinion. You didn't but instead sidestepped it. That proves to me you have no argument and just spewing for fun.

No, in reality I was using the same method of extrapolation that you are in the OP to show how daft it is.

Yet you fail to explain how. Pretty much pointless to even say.

 

[Veliko]

Jesus you're a dumbass. Proven and disproven through thought. This is too far above your head.

You are out there buddy. You didn't even address what was stated. I can assume now that you are just playing because your mind is fried and stuck on stupid. If you intend to have anything closely resembling a conversation typically you address the other person's opinion. You didn't but instead sidestepped it. That proves to me you have no argument and just spewing for fun.

Yet you fail to explain how. Pretty much pointless to even say.

Those flip-flops sure am tasty!

 

[NoStateofMind]

computer fart

 

[fskimospy]

Would you care to point out to the class where this is advocated? You are more stupid than I thought.

It absolutely is self preservation. You continue to infer that we have all these things because of government but we have these things in spite of government. It takes a massive leap of faith (religious one at that) to assume such nonsense.

Completely evidence free assertion, but it doesn't even matter. You choose to participate in a society that engages in what you consider to be daily immoral robbery of everyone present. You have chosen to continue to participate in such a society because you want to keep your comfortable life. You value comfort over morality, all the while attempting to shriek at others about morality. It is pathetic.

Whats pathetic and disgusting is that people like yourself are shown the error in thought that holds mankind enslaved and instead of thinking about it, mulling it over and questioning the validity and morality of their involvement they lash out and condemn as if they are not themselves involved in its perpetuation. All of government is nothing more than the monopoly of force and immoral. You have chosen not to face it.

No, I have considered it and come to the conclusion that you are wrong. Your ideas are facile, unsupported by evidence, and show an inability to consider the outcomes of policies you advocate. You appear to think that looking at your argument and deciding it is bad is the same as not considering it.

You on the other hand HAVE made a conclusion. You've decided that this society is fundamentally immoral, but you continue to participate in the system despite this fact. That is disgusting and you have no excuse.

Talk about growing a pair. How about you challenge your indoctrinated religious belief system? That takes balls which you have none. Here learn something.

You're just running away from this because you have no answer. Why are you so cowardly? Have the courage of your convictions and follow Thoreau's example. What are you waiting for?

We all know what you're waiting for. Bitching about something on the internet is easy and this way you don't have to do anything. You'll sit here and shriek and whine for the rest of your life about how mean government is all from the comfort of your easy chair in some no-name suburb in the middle of America.

 

[schmuckley]

Gee..They take 50 cents (avg) for every gallon of fuel sold in America every single day of the year;yet can't fix that road?No money? Where did it go???!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_taxes_in_the_United_States

"The remaining 40% goes to earmarked programs. " Oh boy.. Then wouldn't it make sense to cut that tax by 40% ?

That whole deal needs to be redone.Get the Government out of the people's pockets.

Hawaiians should demand a refund from State and the Fed for construction costs.

 

[dank69]

I don't know what you are going on about here

That's because you are a dipshit.

but you've added nothing of substance to the topic.

As opposed to you adding nothing but logical fallacies,

Statist like yourself absolutely do suggest or subtly infer that the comforts of society are related to governments existence. To say that I'm enjoying the comforts of this society and that if I don't like it I should leave and find a jungle to live in is saying exactly that. To claim otherwise shows you lack the cognitive ability to think things through. I get it though, you're butthurt and want to get back at me. Here's a suggestion. If you don't like getting spanked its probably better you just mind your own business.

and once again declaring yourself master of the universe for having done so.