But there's no reasoning with the elderly on...

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
I ran across this the other day and I think it makes alot of sense. The elderly don't care if any change to SS will affect them or not. They can't get over the fact that they bought into a failed scheme and want to continue it because they think it's grand. Well, after reading this I think I tend to agree with the writer:
Given the demographic changes ahead ? beginning with the retirement of 70 million baby boomers ? don't expect the Social Security system to give out any guarantees or to honor them if it does.

That's something that older generations need to understand ? and which younger generations figured out a long time ago.

Generations clash on Social Security

The debate over whether to reform Social Security is full of idiosyncrasies.

Here's a big one: No matter what fix we're talking about ? partial privatization, raising the retirement age, means testing so millionaires forfeit benefits, tying benefits to inflation rather than wages, etc. ? the most ferocious opposition comes from the demographic that won't be affected either way by any proposal being discussed at either end of Pennsylvania Avenue: Americans already 55 and over.

If you can imagine that, you're already two steps ahead of the Bush administration. White House officials seem baffled that their biggest fight has turned out to be with a group with whom the administration went out of the way to avoid picking a fight. The polls on this issue back that up. Most show the same trend: The older the polling sample, the less support you find for tinkering with Social Security. The younger the sample, the greater the support.

The more the administration tries to reassure seniors that they'll squeak by before any rule change takes effect, and so this debate doesn't concern them, the more concerned seniors get. Here's what the White House missed: This isn't just about self-interest. It's also about sentimentality. No other generation is as passionate ? and therefore as protective ? about Social Security as the World War II generation, those Americans now in their 70s and 80s. For that demographic, this debate is about preserving a program that served their generation well and which they hope will be around several decades from now to serve their grandchildren.

That's interesting. If they really wanted to protect their grandchildren, they'd do everything they could to ensure some generational fair play. Unless something is done, the current system will ? 10 or 20 years from now ? soak taxpayers with tax rates that experts say could easily top 50 percent when you combine income taxes with the payroll taxes necessary to fund Social Security and Medicare.

But there's no reasoning with the elderly on this issue. I know. I tried.

Recently, I agreed to sit on a panel in Coronado and discuss Social Security reform. Home to a lot of retired naval officers, the well-to-do community has a reputation for being conservative. But you wouldn't know it from the way the audience ? made up almost exclusively of senior citizens ? seized every opportunity to tear into President Bush and his proposal to allow young people to invest part of the money they contribute to the current system into private accounts.

The way these seniors see it, this isn't about demographics and the undeniable fact that, with every year that goes by, we have fewer workers supporting more retirees. This isn't about the fact that Americans are living longer, and so it only makes sense to push back the retirement age.

For this crowd, the whole issue of reforming Social Security comes down to trusting George Bush. For those who don't, it's tempting to buy the argument that the administration is manufacturing a crisis to gin up public support for a scheme that will make a fortune for "Bush's friends on Wall Street."

Judging from their questions and comments, that's what many in the Coronado audience believed. And they couldn't get past it. They insisted on making the issue political, when it's really generational.

That disappointed me. So did the fact that these seniors had convinced themselves that there was no "crisis" in Social Security because the best estimates are that benefits will continue to be paid out for the foreseeable future. They didn't seem to care a whit about the financial strain that future taxpayers will be put under to make that happen. This is the real crisis.

You know what else was disappointing? That many of the seniors were so openly contemptuous of the idea of letting poor and working people invest their own money in private retirement accounts. To listen to these seniors, the less well-off aren't smart enough to know what to invest where, and so need the government to provide them with a guaranteed benefit.

Putting aside the rank condescension, such comments were horribly naive. Given the demographic changes ahead ? beginning with the retirement of 70 million baby boomers ? don't expect the Social Security system to give out any guarantees or to honor them if it does.

That's something that older generations need to understand ? and which younger generations figured out a long time ago.

CsG
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
One question I do have is does SS have a law which doesnt allow it to deficit spend?

Meaning in 2042 when it is nearly 1 trillion short they are required to lower benefits to match the projected shortfall?
 

Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
7,756
11
81
Originally posted by: Genx87
One question I do have is does SS have a law which doesnt allow it to deficit spend?

Not to my knowledge. And besides, laws change all the time anyway. Congress isn't done tinkering with SS. It'll have to revisit the issue sometime in the future.

Meaning in 2042 when it is nearly 1 trillion short they are required to lower benefits to match the projected shortfall?

They're not 'required' to do anything, but benefit cuts are likely.
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,833
1
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
One question I do have is does SS have a law which doesnt allow it to deficit spend?

Meaning in 2042 when it is nearly 1 trillion short they are required to lower benefits to match the projected shortfall?

You don't care if the poor make enough money to be able to set aside for their retirement and the poor don't care how much SS costs.

I spent over 30 years paying SS and I knew it had problems, but what is the alternative? I'm certainly not going to trust Generation X, or the current liars in office to give me a fair break. Especially when i see them squandering the money giving tax cuts to the rich when they can't even balance their budget.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: Genx87
One question I do have is does SS have a law which doesnt allow it to deficit spend?

Meaning in 2042 when it is nearly 1 trillion short they are required to lower benefits to match the projected shortfall?

You don't care if the poor make enough money to be able to set aside for their retirement and the poor don't care how much SS costs.

I spent over 30 years paying SS and I knew it had problems, but what is the alternative?

I'm certainly not going to trust Generation X, or the current liars in office to give me a fair break. Especially when i see them squandering the money giving tax cuts to the rich when they can't even balance their budget.

:thumbsup:
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
5
0
The older generation has seen what the market can do to investments.

Also, they have seen what people will do when they have control of the investment.

Then when nothing exists, they come crying back asking for help; and help is usually provided for by the government. That is what created SS in the beginning.

However, when the return to the SS trough happens, the trough will be empty and the situation will be worse.

There will be a few that can make it on their own with investments and a few others that will not coming back begging at the trough. However, that is a sizeable minority.

 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: Genx87
One question I do have is does SS have a law which doesnt allow it to deficit spend?

Meaning in 2042 when it is nearly 1 trillion short they are required to lower benefits to match the projected shortfall?

You don't care if the poor make enough money to be able to set aside for their retirement and the poor don't care how much SS costs.

I spent over 30 years paying SS and I knew it had problems, but what is the alternative? I'm certainly not going to trust Generation X, or the current liars in office to give me a fair break. Especially when i see them squandering the money giving tax cuts to the rich when they can't even balance their budget.


ok, thank you for answering the question.


 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: Mursilis
Originally posted by: Genx87
One question I do have is does SS have a law which doesnt allow it to deficit spend?

Not to my knowledge. And besides, laws change all the time anyway. Congress isn't done tinkering with SS. It'll have to revisit the issue sometime in the future.

Meaning in 2042 when it is nearly 1 trillion short they are required to lower benefits to match the projected shortfall?

They're not 'required' to do anything, but benefit cuts are likely.

Well that sucks ass then. If the thing was required to be balanced then my opinion on the matter would change as it would eventually implode itself and not take the rest of the country with it.



 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
3
0
Did the US Govt EVER steal any of the SS funds? -- just asking because I really do not know for sure...
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: dahunan
Did the US Govt EVER steal any of the SS funds? -- just asking because I really do not know for sure...

All the surplus's into the system were raped by the congress.
Not so much stolen but simply spent away and borrowed against with treasury bonds.
That is why I call the trust fund a fake fund. The bills in the fund will be paid back by the same people who borrowed them + interest.

You try doing that in the private sector and see how fast you end up in a level 1 federal facility for 30 years.

 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
5
0
Originally posted by: dahunan
Did the US Govt EVER steal any of the SS funds? -- just asking because I really do not know for sure...


Funds were not stolen; Just not used as intended.

The SS collections are put into the general funds for budget purposes.
The SS payments are then budgeted from the general fund.

Excess payments in help the budget.

The big concern is that if SS was kept seperate from the general budget, then the incoming would exceed the outgoing at a certain point; requiring additional support (taxes and/or reduction in benifits).

It still is tax money; just a different color coming into the washing-machine located in DC.

And it is still tax payments to an indivigual from the same bank (US Treasury).
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
3
0
So, if I read this right .. the problem may not have been so big if the surplus SS monies were left untouched and allowed to continue drawing interest

Also, this whole time since the inception of SS the monies have just been dumped into a "general fund" that allowed other agencies to have access to the surplus :confused:
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: dahunan
So, if I read this right .. the problem may not have been so big if the surplus SS monies were left untouched and allowed to continue drawing interest

Also, this whole time since the inception of SS the monies have just been dumped into a "general fund" that allowed other agencies to have access to the surplus :confused:

Yes and now you are starting to see the little scam the politicians envisioned back in the day for this program.

Ill have to verify but I am 90% positive the avg lifespan of a person was the original SS benefits age. Meaning right form the start they knew 50% of the people paying in would never recieve 1 cent from this scam.

Over the past 70 years our avg lifespan has risen to 78 years of age which makes the whole system go into the toilet.

 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
5
0
Originally posted by: dahunan
So, if I read this right .. the problem may not have been so big if the surplus SS monies were left untouched and allowed to continue drawing interest

Also, this whole time since the inception of SS the monies have just been dumped into a "general fund" that allowed other agencies to have access to the surplus :confused:

The SS problem may not have been so big, however, the general US budget problem would have been bigger. Therefore either less spending and/or higher tax rates is the SS surplus was not available.

Remember, that when SS was first started it would have been running a deficit More being paid out than what was coming in; therefore the general budget was used to supliment the needed the SS payments initially.

Then SS became so popular with the politicians and was running a "surplus", that it became expanded to support more than retirement paymnets; Disability and survior benifits were added.

People that were receiving the funds were the ones that voted!!

 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
3
0
I just cannot understand why so many citizens give ANY trust whatsoever to these politicians.. Knowing that those people have so much power over the lives of the great people of America is so saddening. $400,000,000,000 for an unecessary war might have helped Americans far more... JMO
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
I ran across this the other day and I think it makes alot of sense. The elderly don't care if any change to SS will affect them or not. They can't get over the fact that they bought into a failed scheme and want to continue it because they think it's grand. Well, after reading this I think I tend to agree with the writer:
Given the demographic changes ahead ? beginning with the retirement of 70 million baby boomers ? don't expect the Social Security system to give out any guarantees or to honor them if it does.

That's something that older generations need to understand ? and which younger generations figured out a long time ago.

Whatever.

The younger generation needs to figure this out. 70 million baby boomers = 70 million votes.

Eliminate the cap in FICA taxes until the system reaches parity. Problem solved.

Why can't this younger generation figure that out?
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: Genx87
One question I do have is does SS have a law which doesnt allow it to deficit spend?

Meaning in 2042 when it is nearly 1 trillion short they are required to lower benefits to match the projected shortfall?

You don't care if the poor make enough money to be able to set aside for their retirement and the poor don't care how much SS costs.

I spent over 30 years paying SS and I knew it had problems, but what is the alternative?

I'm certainly not going to trust Generation X, or the current liars in office to give me a fair break. Especially when i see them squandering the money giving tax cuts to the rich when they can't even balance their budget.

:thumbsup:

And another :thumbsup:

Great point. These are the VERY LAST people to be trusted with finances (other than their own of course).
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: dahunan
So, if I read this right .. the problem may not have been so big if the surplus SS monies were left untouched and allowed to continue drawing interest

Also, this whole time since the inception of SS the monies have just been dumped into a "general fund" that allowed other agencies to have access to the surplus :confused:

The SS problem may not have been so big, however, the general US budget problem would have been bigger. Therefore either less spending and/or higher tax rates is the SS surplus was not available.

Remember, that when SS was first started it would have been running a deficit More being paid out than what was coming in; therefore the general budget was used to supliment the needed the SS payments initially.

Then SS became so popular with the politicians and was running a "surplus", that it became expanded to support more than retirement paymnets; Disability and survior benifits were added.

People that were receiving the funds were the ones that voted!!

Yep, they have already spent the money they "paid in".... on themselves.

CsG
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
I ran across this the other day and I think it makes alot of sense. The elderly don't care if any change to SS will affect them or not. They can't get over the fact that they bought into a failed scheme and want to continue it because they think it's grand. Well, after reading this I think I tend to agree with the writer:
Given the demographic changes ahead ? beginning with the retirement of 70 million baby boomers ? don't expect the Social Security system to give out any guarantees or to honor them if it does.

That's something that older generations need to understand ? and which younger generations figured out a long time ago.

Whatever.

The younger generation needs to figure this out. 70 million baby boomers = 70 million votes.

Eliminate the cap in FICA taxes until the system reaches parity. Problem solved.

Why can't this younger generation figure that out?

Because the numbers dont add up by just raising the FICA cap. On top of that raising the FICA cap puts pressure on business's who pay people higher wages. Want to offshore those jobs aswell?

One thing liberals need to start figuring out is increase taxing has a ceiling. When you hit that ceiling then what will you do?

And 70 million greedy leeches cant wait to get their hands into the pot.

 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
The older generation has seen what the market can do to investments.

Also, they have seen what people will do when they have control of the investment.

Then when nothing exists, they come crying back asking for help; and help is usually provided for by the government. That is what created SS in the beginning.

I'd really like to see the history you're citing to back up that fable.

However, when the return to the SS trough happens, the trough will be empty and the situation will be worse.

IF NOTHING AT ALL IS DONE the "trough" won't be empty. Just ~thirty percent lower than it has to be to pay full benefits. Eliminate the FICA cap until the system reaches parity. Problem solved.

Also getting Bush's budget in line would really help. What do you think they're using SS funds for? To plug holes in their ever increasing deficit spending budgets. And it's all Republican controlled. If Bush was so acutely aware of the "crisis" in Social Security why did he give away all of the surplus to his friends instead of using it to pay off some of those pieces of paper he keeps talking about? Please explain that to me.

There will be a few that can make it on their own with investments and a few others that will not coming back begging at the trough. However, that is a sizeable minority.

How the hell do you call paying into Social Security all your life and expecting the benefits promised as "begging"?

You people are truly despicable. A generation of ungrateful, greedy, offensive thieves.

 

robertcloud

Banned
Oct 23, 2004
218
0
0
Eliminate the cap in FICA taxes until the system reaches parity. Problem solved.

Why can't this younger generation figure that out?


I don't agree with this. The cap at the first $87,500 of income is necessary. Is it reasonable to expect an individual to pay more than $10937.5 per year into an insurance fund? Please remember that people also have other retirement programs as well: 401k, pensions, etc.
There is a point where payments into SS become excessive. I can understand how it is easy to demand other people to give up more of their income to pay taxes, but it is really unfair to them.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: BBond
You people are truly despicable. A generation of ungrateful, greedy, offensive thieves.

I agree. You people who are double dipping should be ashamed of yourselves. I mean you want to whine about paying in all you life, but yet you want to ignore that YOU have already spent the money on yourselves.

CsG
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
Originally posted by: robertcloud
Eliminate the cap in FICA taxes until the system reaches parity. Problem solved.

Why can't this younger generation figure that out?


I don't agree with this. The cap at the first $87,500 of income is necessary. Is it reasonable to expect an individual to pay more than $10937.5 per year into an insurance fund? Please remember that people also have other retirement programs as well: 401k, pensions, etc.
There is a point where payments into SS become excessive. I can understand how it is easy to demand other people to give up more of their income to pay taxes, but it is really unfair to them.

The people who will be paying more than $10937,50 per year are the same people who spent the money in the first place. And the same people who emptied the treasury after they funded their boy's theft of election 2000.
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,833
1
0
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: dahunan
So, if I read this right .. the problem may not have been so big if the surplus SS monies were left untouched and allowed to continue drawing interest

Also, this whole time since the inception of SS the monies have just been dumped into a "general fund" that allowed other agencies to have access to the surplus :confused:

The SS problem may not have been so big, however, the general US budget problem would have been bigger. Therefore either less spending and/or higher tax rates is the SS surplus was not available.

Remember, that when SS was first started it would have been running a deficit More being paid out than what was coming in; therefore the general budget was used to supliment the needed the SS payments initially.

Then SS became so popular with the politicians and was running a "surplus", that it became expanded to support more than retirement paymnets; Disability and survior benifits were added.

People that were receiving the funds were the ones that voted!!

You forgot the health insurance. Why do you think people are living so much longer?? Let's just drop the health benifits for old people and let the life expectancy drop. Maybe that's why Bush doesn't want stem cell research?? LOL.

Now what do you do about the disabled...another program just for them?? It's still going to cost money. I guess we can move them all into an insitution, that would save a little.


 

robertcloud

Banned
Oct 23, 2004
218
0
0
Originally posted by: BBond
How the hell do you call paying into Social Security all your life and expecting the benefits promised as "begging"?

You people are truly despicable. A generation of ungrateful, greedy, offensive thieves.

If I remember correctly, you are over 60? Why are you so vehemently opposed to changing the nature of SS?

Secondly, the baby boom generation born after '52 are the only ones who have the right to really oppose reform. Even though they have been paying into SS fund for ~30 years, they have tolerated politicians appropriating SS income to fund general economic growth in the budget. This is why I am not too sympathetic to their arguements.

Besides, the baby boomers can't blame generation x for any of their troubles because generation x hasn't yet obtained real power.