Bush to use TARP money to Bailout Autos!

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Modelworks
If they get money from Tarp does that mean the auto companies get the money without the restrictions they would have had with the bailout ?
I'm just thinking outside the box. The auto makers know that they can't be allowed to fail. The senate knows that people were not for a bailout. They both go through the motions, then the president comes out and saves the day. They all win.

And in the end nothing gets solved. At least with the bailout things will get put into motion for the Big 3 to start to change their business model.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Modelworks
If they get money from Tarp does that mean the auto companies get the money without the restrictions they would have had with the bailout ?
I'm just thinking outside the box. The auto makers know that they can't be allowed to fail. The senate knows that people were not for a bailout. They both go through the motions, then the president comes out and saves the day. They all win.

And in the end nothing gets solved. At least with the bailout things will get put into motion for the Big 3 to start to change their business model.

Yeah its a loss for the taxpayer, but a win for the big 3 CEO

 

[Thump553]

Refresh my recollection, but didn't Bernacke (with Bush's blessing) absolutely refuse to use TARP funds for the auto industry bailout about a month ago? And wasn't that refusal the basic reason for drafting this temporary bailout bill? Does anyone think Bush is going to put the good of the country above the interests of the GOP when the GOP has clearly spoken? I'd say the chances of this happening are 10% or less.

I still think the GOP Senator's actions last night will be clearly seen as an undisguised attempt to union bust-coupled with regional economic warfare.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Thump553
Refresh my recollection, but didn't Bernacke (with Bush's blessing) absolutely refuse to use TARP funds for the auto industry bailout about a month ago? And wasn't that refusal the basic reason for drafting this temporary bailout bill? Does anyone think Bush is going to put the good of the country above the interests of the GOP when the GOP has clearly spoken? I'd say the chances of this happening are 10% or less.

I still think the GOP Senator's actions last night will be clearly seen as an undisguised attempt to union bust-coupled with regional economic warfare.

Paulson doesn't want to use the TARP funds because he considers it outside the purpose for which they were provided. Bush is going to lock him in a box with a rabid mongoose until he agrees.

 

[Red Dawn]

Wall St. bailout may be used for Big 3
The Bush administration said Friday that it will consider using the money set aside to help banks and Wall Street to rescue the auto industry.

The statement -- a change in the administration's long-held position -- might be the last best chance to keep troubled automakers General Motors and Chrysler LLC out of bankruptcy.

The defeat of a $14 billion bailout plan in the Senate late Thursday left the administration little choice but to tap the $700 billion bailout approved by Congress in October, the Troubled Asset Relief Program or TARP, according to White House Press Secretary Dana Perino.

"Given the current weakened state of the U.S. economy, we will consider other options if necessary -- including use of the TARP program -- to prevent a collapse of troubled automakers," Perino said in a statement. "A precipitous collapse of this industry would have a severe impact on our economy, and it would be irresponsible to further weaken and destabilize our economy at this time."

General Motors (GM, Fortune 500) has argued that it needs $4 billion by the end of the month or else it will run out of the money it needs to continue to operate. It said it'll need an additional $6 billion in the first two months of 2009. Chrysler said it needs $4 billion early next year.

The Bush administration and congressional Democrats agreed earlier this week to use funds originally set aside to help the auto industry start producing more fuel efficient cars to fund $14 billion in loans. But while the measure passed the House Wednesday night, Republican opposition in the Senate kept it from winning the 60 votes it needed to bring the matter up for a vote

 

[SunnyD]

Originally posted by: sunzt

Originally posted by: Slew Foot
Asian stock markets down heavily in the last half hour or so, Japan down 6% right now. Ehh big deal, Id give up a few point on the dow today for a stronger country tomorrow.

A stronger country that may no longer have a non-foreign controlled manufacturing base and a greatly reduced supplier and dealership companies?

The sky is falling.

 

[StageLeft]

I think now what we'll see is TARP Money used for them, so in the end they get their money and some of the GOP people get to say later "Look, I voted against this", so if it does badly they can say they voted against it. And if it does well...well, it won't without a lot more than the $14B.

 

[Modelworks]

So far the Dow isn't doing much. Looks like people are waiting to see what Bush has to say.
Down about 80 pts as of 10am est.

 

[nobodyknows]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: CPA

Originally posted by: ericlp
Ya know, if we give them 14B tomorrow they will be asking for another 14B next month.

exactly, the assumption that this $14B would do any good is wrong. Their is no evidence that they Big 3 won't be back at the table in another 3 months asking for more.

Not only is there no evidence, but if they are in as bad shape as they claim, only a fool would bet against it; $14B was a short term patch, nothing more than a battlefield dressing. The big 3's future hinges upon magnitudes more than that, so I hope nobody thinks that if/when the Big 3 fail it was because of a paltry $14B that the GOP said no to.

14 B is a mere pittance when compared to the money wasted on Iraq, you can bet thyat the Bush Admin will give it to them just so their legacy won't be that of the Administration the was in \charge when America lost it's last large scale manufacturers.

Is this how we are going to justify spending tax payers money for the rest of eternity? Well if it costs less than Iraq then vote yes!

And what makes you believe if we let them file for bankruptcy all of their assets will disappear?

Are you really this dumb?

 

[MikeyLSU]

don't fall for the stock market trap, we were told the market would collapse unless we bailed out the banking industry.

Well, we bailed them out and the stock market crashed anyway. Now some of you are trying the same tactic, it won't work.

These companies failed for a reason, throwing money at them will not fix the problem. I will never again buy any vehicle from any of the Big 3 if this bailout passes. I currently own 2(wife and I).

 

[SunnyD]

My whole thing is that the gov is pumping liquidity into the banks and the banks are just sitting on it. The BANKS should be the ones responsible for dropping loans on the auto industry, and then asking the gov to back them up should the loans fail.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: loki8481

Originally posted by: sunzt

Originally posted by: Slew Foot
Asian stock markets down heavily in the last half hour or so, Japan down 6% right now. Ehh big deal, Id give up a few point on the dow today for a stronger country tomorrow.

A stronger country that may no longer have a non-foreign controlled manufacturing base and a greatly reduced supplier and dealership companies?

they manufacture cars in the US... though if the native US auto industries were to collapse, they'd be hurt as well.

They don't manufacture in the US, They insource assembly to get huge tax breaks, land and other goodies while showing no profit thus no taxes via ?transfer pricing? a practice where a foreign parent company charges its American subsidiary excessive prices for components and other inputs from home country. It's just gaming states against one another and in the process subsidizing foreign companies to put our own companies out of business.

How dare you bring facts into this discussion! :|

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: MikeyLSU
don't fall for the stock market trap, we were told the market would collapse unless we bailed out the banking industry.

Well, we bailed them out and the stock market crashed anyway. Now some of you are trying the same tactic, it won't work.

These companies failed for a reason, throwing money at them will not fix the problem. I will never again buy any vehicle from any of the Big 3 if this bailout passes. I currently own 2(wife and I).

The market declined substantially but did not implode (which would have happened). Everyone advocating the banking bailout said it wouldn't prevent a recession but it would prevent a depression.

 

[MikeyLSU]

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: MikeyLSU
don't fall for the stock market trap, we were told the market would collapse unless we bailed out the banking industry.

Well, we bailed them out and the stock market crashed anyway. Now some of you are trying the same tactic, it won't work.

These companies failed for a reason, throwing money at them will not fix the problem. I will never again buy any vehicle from any of the Big 3 if this bailout passes. I currently own 2(wife and I).

The market declined substantially but did not implode (which would have happened). Everyone advocating the banking bailout said it wouldn't prevent a recession but it would prevent a depression.

you have no idea what would have happened, you can only speculate.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: MikeyLSU

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: MikeyLSU
don't fall for the stock market trap, we were told the market would collapse unless we bailed out the banking industry.

Well, we bailed them out and the stock market crashed anyway. Now some of you are trying the same tactic, it won't work.

These companies failed for a reason, throwing money at them will not fix the problem. I will never again buy any vehicle from any of the Big 3 if this bailout passes. I currently own 2(wife and I).

The market declined substantially but did not implode (which would have happened). Everyone advocating the banking bailout said it wouldn't prevent a recession but it would prevent a depression.

you have no idea what would have happened, you can only speculate.

I think we can form a sufficiently good guess from what happened the last time banks were in such dire straits and the Fed contracted the money supply.

 

[MikeyLSU]

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: MikeyLSU

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: MikeyLSU
don't fall for the stock market trap, we were told the market would collapse unless we bailed out the banking industry.

Well, we bailed them out and the stock market crashed anyway. Now some of you are trying the same tactic, it won't work.

These companies failed for a reason, throwing money at them will not fix the problem. I will never again buy any vehicle from any of the Big 3 if this bailout passes. I currently own 2(wife and I).

The market declined substantially but did not implode (which would have happened). Everyone advocating the banking bailout said it wouldn't prevent a recession but it would prevent a depression.

you have no idea what would have happened, you can only speculate.

I think we can form a sufficiently good guess from what happened the last time banks were in such dire straits and the Fed contracted the money supply.

Then we disagree, I don't see the same parallels to the great depression as you do.

 

[boomerang]

Originally posted by: MikeyLSU
don't fall for the stock market trap, we were told the market would collapse unless we bailed out the banking industry.

Well, we bailed them out and the stock market crashed anyway. Now some of you are trying the same tactic, it won't work.

These companies failed for a reason, throwing money at them will not fix the problem. I will never again buy any vehicle from any of the Big 3 if this bailout passes. I currently own 2(wife and I).

Well that'll teach 'em.

 

[Throckmorton]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: boomerang

Originally posted by: MIKEMIKE
i do not know what i will do if I watch GM and Chrysler go down... im not in the best place to be when two major players fold and Ford tries not to follow.

If it's any consolation, you're not going to be alone. You'll have about 3 million of us in the same boat with you.

I think it's important to remember that the same people that are putting on this high stakes dog and pony show are responsible for the mess we're in today. They removed nearly all of the controls and regulations on the financial markets. Controls and regulations that were put in place after intensive investigations following the Great Depression. They were removed because they were 'hindering the markets'. The financial meltdown was the result. These fuckers should be tarred and feathered.

I'd really like to see the details of what brought this agreement down. The way the numbers work out for me, the UAW would have had to accept a 66% wage cut. I know, I know, some of you are going to say that a job at any pay is better than none. When you've got a family to support with a mortgage, car payments, insurance, braces for the kids, etc., a cut of that kind is unthinkable. Unemployment pays far better than that.

Essentially the GOP is just getting their rocks off bullying workers around. They've sealed their fate now. If this shakes out the way it appears it will, they'll have difficulty getting elected for a decade or more. That's language even they should be able to understand.

They contributed to removal of regulations, but the plain and undeniable reality is that the Big 3 have been losing market share at an astonishing rate for many years. They were already heading toward doom, this merely accelerated it.

And to expect union workers to get down to non-union, i.e. fair market rates is perfectly reasonable, otherwise this becomes nothing more than state charity to keep them in positions the market says they otherwise do not deserve. Nonetheless, speaking of high stakes, the union made a gamble and lost; if the big 3 do collapse the union workers will wish they had accepted non-union salaries.

The rate negotiated by the union is the fair market rate. That's what a free market is. Suddenly all you Republicans are command and control proponents who thinks Congress should be able to set wages between two private entities??

 

[StageLeft]

"The rate negotiated by the union is the fair market rate. That's what a free market is. Suddenly all you Republicans are command and control proponents who thinks Congress should be able to set wages between two private entities??"

I am not a Republican. It is not free market rate because it's locked into long term contracts and unions are like an alien in your stomach; once it gets in your nose, it won't come out. A bad apple employee gets canned, but once the union is there, all locked into your various levels of workforce it is exceedingly hard to remove and is unnaturally powerful. That is why a union worker will make far more than a non-union worker at Ford doing the exact job.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Throckmorton

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: boomerang

Originally posted by: MIKEMIKE
i do not know what i will do if I watch GM and Chrysler go down... im not in the best place to be when two major players fold and Ford tries not to follow.

If it's any consolation, you're not going to be alone. You'll have about 3 million of us in the same boat with you.

I think it's important to remember that the same people that are putting on this high stakes dog and pony show are responsible for the mess we're in today. They removed nearly all of the controls and regulations on the financial markets. Controls and regulations that were put in place after intensive investigations following the Great Depression. They were removed because they were 'hindering the markets'. The financial meltdown was the result. These fuckers should be tarred and feathered.

I'd really like to see the details of what brought this agreement down. The way the numbers work out for me, the UAW would have had to accept a 66% wage cut. I know, I know, some of you are going to say that a job at any pay is better than none. When you've got a family to support with a mortgage, car payments, insurance, braces for the kids, etc., a cut of that kind is unthinkable. Unemployment pays far better than that.

Essentially the GOP is just getting their rocks off bullying workers around. They've sealed their fate now. If this shakes out the way it appears it will, they'll have difficulty getting elected for a decade or more. That's language even they should be able to understand.

They contributed to removal of regulations, but the plain and undeniable reality is that the Big 3 have been losing market share at an astonishing rate for many years. They were already heading toward doom, this merely accelerated it.

And to expect union workers to get down to non-union, i.e. fair market rates is perfectly reasonable, otherwise this becomes nothing more than state charity to keep them in positions the market says they otherwise do not deserve. Nonetheless, speaking of high stakes, the union made a gamble and lost; if the big 3 do collapse the union workers will wish they had accepted non-union salaries.

The rate negotiated by the union is the fair market rate. That's what a free market is. Suddenly all you Republicans are command and control proponents who thinks Congress should be able to set wages between two private entities??

I'd question whether that is the fair market rate due to the costs that are currently killing a company. Would the big 3 negotiate the same rate with a non-unionized workforce that wasnt holding a gun to their head?

And the republicans arent command and control in this situation. They are looking at the numbers and seeing a problem. The wages demanded by the Union are too high. Since they are too high why would the govt grant a loan?

 

[winnar111]

Kind of funny how the Democratic congress punts this to Bush when they hate him so much.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: winnar111
Kind of funny how the Democratic congress punts this to Bush when they hate him so much.

They know it's a catch 22 and the public opposes it. They are punting to him so they can blame him for it (whether there is a bail out or not) after he leaves office. Bush should go down in history as the ultimate political martyr. I disagree with a lot of things he's done but I admire him for not being a politician and always perceived him as doing what he thought was the "right" thing to do vs politically optimal.

 

[winnar111]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: winnar111
Kind of funny how the Democratic congress punts this to Bush when they hate him so much.

They know it's a catch 22 and the public opposes it. They are punting to him so they can blame him for it (whether there is a bail out or not) after he leaves office. Bush should go down in history as the ultimate political martyr. I disagree with a lot of things he's done but I admire him for not being a politician and always perceived him as doing what he thought was the "right" thing to do vs politically optimal.

Pretty much. There's a reason Obama already resigned his Senate seat and is currently sitting on his ass.

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: winnar111
Kind of funny how the Democratic congress punts this to Bush when they hate him so much.

LOL. Republicans killed the bill and that's why it went to Bush.
But it looks like GOP is going to continue on its self destructive course of doing nothing but obsructing, which is good news for this country. They are still going to get blamed for the economy in 2010.

 

[winnar111]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: winnar111
Kind of funny how the Democratic congress punts this to Bush when they hate him so much.

LOL. Republicans killed the bill and that's why it went to Bush.
But it looks like GOP is going to continue on its self destructive course of doing nothing but obsructing, which is good news for this country. They are still going to get blamed for the economy in 2010.

If you say so.